Some questions for real anarchists, no ancaps allowed - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The 'no government' movement.
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#13917082
houndred wrote:Well if you are going to have enough people for this revolution then why not test it in the polls first. If you can't even get a single representative elected its probably a good indicator that the people are't going to rise up and support you.


It`s not because we are an endangered species that we decide to not vote.

Rudolf Rocker wrote:Participation in the politics of the bourgeois States has not brought the labour movement a hair's-breadth nearer to Socialism, but thanks to this method, Socialism has almost been completely crushed and condemned to insignificance. . . Participation in parliamentary politics has affected the Socialist Labour movement like an insidious poison. It destroyed the belief in the necessity of constructive Socialist activity, and, worse of all, the impulse to self-help, by inoculating people with the ruinous delusion that salvation always comes from above.


That being said, the Greens are usually close to our positions and many anarchists do vote for them. However, I sincerely believe they will turn into a completely rotten apple if they get power, just like the Marxists and Social Democrats did and Ron Paul will become if the libertarians got their wish.

Voting is basically a part of the problem in my eyes.
#13953223
lubbockjoe wrote:1) Is capitalism authoritarian?


Yes. The whole notion of property is strongly rooted in being able to control access to resources or capital; hence it is innately authoritarian.

2) Do you view capitalism as compatible with anarchism? Why or why not?


No, because capitalism is inherently dependent on the private property privilege, which requires central authorities to grant and enforce. Call them governments, "rights management agencies", whatever.

3) Do you believe ancaps would be an exploitive force in an anarchistic society?


I don't think there would be very many ancaps in an anarchist society. Their position wouldn't really make much sense in a society that has utterly rejected private property. They might be a murderous force in an anarchist society, where they tried to personally defend what they see as their own property, but I can't see that individual survivalist nutjobs would be a credible threat or destined to live very long without trade with the anarchist majority (and I don't see why the anarchists would be willing to support people who would be willing to murder over property).

4) In what sense are ancaps anarchists?


They aren't, because fundamentally they believe in control and oppression through the property privilege.

5) Are ancaps really capitalists in disguise?[/list]


As far as I know ancaps aren't even disguising the fact that they're capitalists. Hence "anarcho-capitalism." It doesn't make much sense to hide your beliefs in a name you've chosen for yourself.

yes it itsn't much good if no one supports you.


Think about this for a moment... you are suggesting that people who think governments shouldn't exist ought to participate in government elections. What's the point? If elections could solve society's problems, there would be no need to get rid of governments.

You have no numbers, you have no military experience and no finances and yet you think you can take power.


Anarchists don't want to take power--they want to dismantle the system that allows minorities to control the majority. Breaking the system does not require taking control of it, it merely means causing the system to fail.
#13958616
lubbockjoe wrote:I believe I have anarchist blood running through my veins. I can agree with anarchist distrust of humans with authority.
    1) Is capitalism authoritarian?
    2) Do you view capitalism as compatible with anarchism? Why or why not?
    3) Do you believe ancaps would be an exploitive force in an anarchistic society?
    4) In what sense are ancaps anarchists?
    5) Are ancaps really capitalists in disguise?


1) Without a doubt. Private property requires an oppressive police State to function.
2) Technically, mutualism and syndicalism would result on a market economy rather than a command economy. Still, these economic regimes would not be capitalist, for both rest on worker ownership, control and management of the MoP.
3) Nope: They wouldn't last long enough to become a threat. Their paramilitaries would devolve into a myriad warring warlords in a matter of weeks. From the ruins of their scheme, a proletarian takeover is inevitable.
4) Very arguable: On the one hand, they do want to dismantle the State's repressive apparatus... But on the other hand, they want to set up privatized repressive apparatuses instead. In paper, they are technically anarchists... but not in practice.
5) I don't think they bother to disguise themselves at all.
#13959272
centrally planned i doubt, they just have an expanded definition, which excludes us, but there it is. oh well :hmm:

if your an anarchist than you dislike anything statist so it would make since for things ss is against to be statist. :|
#14096503
lubbockjoe wrote:I believe I have anarchist blood running through my veins. I can agree with anarchist distrust of humans with authority.
    1) Is capitalism authoritarian?
    2) Do you view capitalism as compatible with anarchism? Why or why not?
    3) Do you believe ancaps would be an exploitive force in an anarchistic society?
    4) In what sense are ancaps anarchists?
    5) Are ancaps really capitalists in disguise?
Let me answer all those five questions. Free market capitalism cannot be the major economic policy of any free society. Money becomes a sort of skewed false Idol.

Adam Smith finally labeled the ploy on human interest in money as the "Invisible hand"

The invisible hand is Authoritarian. It forces people into a collective society (unknowingly) that is dominated by a top down scheme for capitalism and banking to thrive. This eventually alienates freedoms. This eventually buys out political systems. This eventually promotes oligarchy, monopoly, and high levels of wealth inequality/corruption. The people with the most monetary value disregard individuals and take on an almost narcissistic psychopathic agenda that is NOT in favor of anarchism or truly a free, direct, participatory democracy.

Ancaps are people who label traditional anarchists as utopian dreamers with no basis in real world ethics. They are not key to free society. They are capitalists
#14101172
I would love to disagree with you, but am having trouble finding any statement with enough content and reasoning.

Why do you think free market capitalism cannot be a major economic policy of any free society? What do you mean by "money becomes a sort of skewed false idol"?
#14101964
1) Is capitalism authoritarian?


As it is practiced on the large scale of today, yes, no question.

2) Do you view capitalism as compatible with anarchism? Why or why not?


In a very small yes, that is, as long as the markets are small and there is no corporation to speak of, nor any other entity similar to it.

3) Do you believe ancaps would be an exploitive force in an anarchistic society?


They would probably need purging like the rest of the riff raff.

4) In what sense are ancaps anarchists?


*raises one eyebrow* In the sense that a square peg fits in a round hole.

5) Are ancaps really capitalists in disguise?


Of course. As libertarians in the US are Republicans in disguise.
#14102216
Eran wrote:I would love to disagree with you, but am having trouble finding any statement with enough content and reasoning.

Why do you think free market capitalism cannot be a major economic policy of any free society? What do you mean by "money becomes a sort of skewed false idol"?
Thank you for being honest. I hope I can give you something to work with here- So, "Why do I think free market capitalism cannot be a major economic policy"
Its simple for me. If someone wants to make a lasting free society, that said society needs to abolish all corrosive elements. What I see when "Anarchists" favor Capitalism is the Lassie-fair system of capitalism, which may be the best suited for anarchism. Still, what the anarcho-capitalists are essentially arguing for is hierarchical society based upon collectivity dominated by class distinction.

Notice that capitalism is based on unlimited growth which in turn is fueled by periods of growth followed by collapse. Every capitalist state eventually has to provide more and more regulations so their state does not collapse during the periods of economic disparity. Sure, competition breeds exponential rises in production and discovery, but the world we live in is ready for transformation. Its the principal of humanity to eventually live where everyman is free. Free from the state and free from anything that limits individual's decisions.

This is where the invisible hand plays a crucial part in limiting individual's decisions. Once everyone is labeled with monetary value, they become (like I said earlier) part of a collective society that they unknowingly joined. Followed by the reasoning that this was not part of their own intentions, they are typically forced into a labor market dominated by hierarchical thinking and martial wealth. That labor market... yet before I dive into wage labor and human commodity.

I know that the argument for capitalism is that it gives the individual more capability in decision making. The money earned empowers them in the market to make decisions based on personal gain. I just thought I'd clarify that I understand that notion. I just can't agree with it at all. See, if the money earned empowers me, that power can only be played within the market, or within the "Box" and usually regulates personal gains. Where/how can such immense individual empowerment within a single market promote free society? The key turnoff here, for me, is the budget that every person who lives in the market economy is given. That budget is the skewed false idol, it dictates the decisions from the top down. Priorities are no longer at the benefit of the free society or community- let alone in some cases- family. Instead, we are forced to make decisions according to our wealth, according to our bills, and according to our market. That ploy on human interest can not be sustained in a direct participatory democracy that a free society yearns for. Hence why capitalism itself is not a sustainable system. Unlimited growth by rule, playing its game on a board with limited resources. Capitalism & Earth. oh the irony.

Anyways, the labor market- Lets start with wage labor, a favorite amongst private ownership. Wage labor is a form of slavery. Thats not extreme in context, hear me out if you will... Instead of the steel mill workers owning the steel mill, the private owner (employer) rents human capital to preform the work at the mill. At a set rate and wage, each person employed is given market empowerment once they finish their shift. Yet, Those employed don't share the responsibility of the steel mill, because private ownership ensues the primarily investment. which should suggest that wage labor is temporary slavery. Once our slaves end the shift they now have to contend with a market, one that has given them priorities. They use what wage they earned at the mill to make decisions. These decisions are based on market enforcement and personal gains. The proletariat, if you will, is forced by a market to make what people call rational or irrational decisions. If they fail to abide by the demands of their market, they fall between the cracks and gather less and less freedom of choice. (this may be why a black market is so profitable. you don't have to abide by the demands of a traditional market) So where is the free society? How can a society be free if one has to meet the demands of the market to be a part of that society?
Next, human commodity. I am a firm believer that capitalism builds imaginary wealth, hence why the U.S. is in favor of a complete fiat currency. So if the wealth accumulated is imaginary, wouldn't you suppose products and services will become imaginary? By imaginary I assume it not as invisible, but rather something not tangible. For instance- Western stardom in Hollywood became so big that an imaginary product emerged. Not only did we have movies to sell, now we have starlight to sell. The paparazzi (for a crude example) made an industry out of antagonizing and exploiting actor and actresses privacy. Anything that they can capitalize on will be capitalized. This is how out of control capitalism can get. They can make products out of thin air. So, human commodity will not exist within a free market, human commodity will come with a price because it shall be capitalized. Even our inter-workings of the United State's Republic have been capitalized. Politics is a game of monopoly. This is what Capitalism becomes and this is why a free society can't have it as its major economic policy. Let alone, I wonder even a minor economic policy. It just seems to engulf the human spirit and "buys" out everything that should be held by principle. It corrupts and destroys free society.

My ideas- Maybe all of that (above) was a bit of a jumble, lots of "this is bad and thats bad" but let me state what I think can be good for a free society. of course, we need to abolish the state. That is first on an Anarchist's to-do list.

1. I'd like to see some sort of implementation of ancient Confucianism. A modern twist if you will, where family and community is held by core principles. Also, I've always been fond of having the merchant class be at the bottom of the social ladder. People who do not create, and only shuffle around goods and money should not be rewarded as handsomely as they are, in- say- WallStreet. Why do we allow a class of people who only play the market by investing and dancing to make heaping piles of money, that only empowers them more to make decisions that cater to their own class.

2. Before the Europeans came to North America, many Native American tribes had peaceful and harmonious ways of living. Sure, they did have wars between tribes from time to time, but respect for human life and the earth was profound... Why can't we share some of these ideals in a newly invented free society. I do not claim to be an expert on tribal living, but from what I have studied, it seems as though they understood that community and respect for one another is something humans should take as a given. Hence why they did not have the scientific achievement of the white man, because they did not dwell in competition at all times. Also, geographically there was less competition. if not their scientific achievements, Their societal achievements should be a lesson for any free society

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