[SolarCross]

Capitalism = owning the means of production
Socialism = wanting the workers to own the means of production
Therefore socialists must like capitalism because they want the workers to enjoy it too. Just a thought.

[mikema63]

Socialists want capital accumulated into the hands of the workers.

[Red Barn]

Two sides of any transaction always have conflicting interests, e better the deal for one the worse off the other (relatively).

So here you're admitting that capitalists have interests that inherently conflict with labor's. Elsewhere you've admitted that current holders of capital have most likely acquired those holding in ways that are essentially illegitimate according to an-cap standards.

Wanna explain one more time why you want to keep these bastards around?

[mikema63]

If you had read some of the threads in libertarianism by me, specifically the one about my thoughts on the rich, you would see that not only do I not think they own their wealth legitamatly but I suggest stripping them of it and allowing interested parties, read the workers, to homestead the physical assets.

[Red Barn]

Okay. That doesn't answer my question, though.

Why do you want to preserve the capitalist class?

[mikema63]

I don't necessarily, essentially I would like to build a system where people can choose and build the best system they can according to their theories. Since the current capitalist class would be essentially destroyed in the process then if, as you say, people are freer richer and happier under your system then there never will be a capitalist class again.

Also since most large companies, hospitals, and government systems would be turned into multiple coops your in a good position to make it work for your side.

[Red Barn]

But if you haven't established that the liberated properties are in fact common property, then what's to prevent somebody from "homesteading" (read "annexing for his own personal use") an asset that the entire population needs to exist, and thereby recreating the whole sorry mess all over again?

[mikema63]

I'm basically giving it to the workers becaus ether are the only ones who could feasibly deserve it, I called it homesteading because remeber I posted it in the libertarian subforum as a suggested policy. Take the stuff from the companies that live of government and they won't be able to stop you later.

The libertarian position of make the economy a free market and they will go away just reminds me of the cartoon with two scientists and a board where step to is "then a miracle happens".

Anyway I was trying to get them to buy it.

As for making all property part of the commons, I see no way to implement this nation wide, if a group decides to make a community around it then sure.

As of late I would be inclined to try it out myself in fact, perhaps a pharmaceuticals manufacturing deal.

[Red Barn]

It sounds like you plan to homestead a meth lab. Very resourceful.

As for making all property part of the commons, I see no way to implement this nation wide, if a group decides to make a community around it then sure.

I don't know what this means.

You're going to somehow strip every corporation in existence of its assets, but you can't figure out how to protect the commons from marauders?

I don't get that.

[mikema63]

I clearly don't really understand the question.

The people who build the societies in post anarchia would have to work out that type of stuff.

If your society controlled a specific area how would it deal with the problem?

As for the meth lab I was thinking of starting with human insulin, I could probably do it cheaper than Pharma companies do now.

[Red Barn]

Human insulin??? Holy cow.

The people who build the societies in post anarchia would have to work out that type of stuff.

"Work it out" how?

You put a chunk of Arizona up for grabs. Ten guys who are quick on the uptake decide they're going to "homestead" the only water source around, and then extract labor from the population in exchange for water. Capitalism all over again.

What do you do to prevent this? Or do you do nothing, assuming that their leverage over the rest of the population is now "legitimate" simply because they've annexed the water without help from the state?

If your society controlled a specific area how would it deal with the problem?

Any resource necessary for existence would be part of the commons, and decisions regarding the commons would be made democratically.

[mikema63]

I just said I was giving government stuff, including utilities, to the workers as well.

Also, ten guys homestead all the water in Arizona? We've had this discussion before I think.

As for human insulin, getting a bacteria to produce it would cost maybe 1-2 hundred dollars or so, scaling it would be the bigger problem. (and by scale I mean even enough for one person)

[Red Barn]

I just said I was giving government stuff, including utilities, to the workers as well.

To which workers, though? All the workers? Some of the workers?

How are you going to allocate it?

[mikema63]

In industry, they have the requisite skills to run it, ah also localize it where possible.

For the electric grid it's pretty fucked over and needs wholesale replacement to more localized grids with more micro generation. That one needs some work around but that's a bit to detail oriented for the discussion I think.

All users of a water supply are probably just as much owners of it as the next person so I suppose ownership would have to be mor spread out locally with water stations that pump it requiring permission and only owning what they specifically pump.

[Red Barn]

All users of a water supply are probably just as much owners of it as the next person . . .

Well. I expect there's hope for you yet then.



(Which doesn't mean I'm suddenly keen on the idea of bathtub insulin. Yowzer.)

[mikema63]

It would be in a sterile temperature controlled nutrient feed tank, similar to what's used in brewing since its essentially the same thing.

I can make you any other human or animal protein or hormone you desire, along with vaccines and anti-venoms.

[Red Barn]

Er . . . thanks. I'll keep that in mind.

You never know when you're going to need a good anti-venom.

[Decky]

To be fair it is probably too late by the time you know need it. Having some in reserve is probably a good idea.

[mikema63]

Prokaryotes are truly the proletariat to your burgeoise.

[ingliz]

Prokaryotes

An odd way to describe yourself.

I'm a laborer

One of the working poor

To put it bluntly my family gets most of its food from charity