Anarchism and Hierarchy - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The 'no government' movement.
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User avatar
By emmitt
#14267750
Eran wrote: After all, juries may well choose to convict trespassers or non-rent-paying tenants.

Sure. They could do that.
Benjamin Tucker changed his views anyway. He became a Stirnerite Egoist at some point in his life.

Benjamin Tucker wrote:In times past, when, though already an Egoist and knowing then as now that every man acts and always will act solely from an interest in self, I had not considered the bearing of Egoism upon the question of obligation, it was my habit to talk glibly and loosely of the right of man to the land. It was a bad habit, and I long ago sloughed it off. Man’s only right over the land is his might over it. If his neighbor is mightier than he and takes the land from him, then the land is his neighbor’s until the latter is dispossessed in turn by one mightier still.


We agree that the state isn't required for capitalism to operate, provided only that capitalist property rules enjoy broad public support.

You happen to agree with Benjamin Tucker. Yes.
User avatar
By Eran
#14267759
You happen to agree with Benjamin Tucker. Yes.

Fair enough. Thank you.
#14388238
Paradigm wrote:Certainly not as we know it today. Who's going to enforce an absentee landlord's claim on a piece of land he's not there to defend?


A security system? Paid security personnel? Paying a neighbour to defend? It's not to hard to imagine.

A more natural relation to possessions would be based on occupancy and use. Sort of like seats at a movie theater.
#14388240
In a hypothetical anarchic society, it would be very hard to predict how hierarchy (or the organization of society in general) would work since it would depend on a vast number of variables. It's like me having a locked cage containing 30 cats, and trying to predict where each of the cats will end up in a year if I opened the cage and let them go free in the middle of a field.

We can't predict with any sort of accuracy how humans will behave and organize in any particular society if given the freedom of anarchy (beyond extremely vague and general predictions like "humans will mostly behave selfishly"). We can only hypothesize on the many, many different possibilities of outcomes...which have no guarantee whatsoever to become true in an anarchic society unless some force possessed the power to implement them.
#14388543
Unthinking Majority wrote:A security system? Paid security personnel? Paying a neighbour to defend? It's not to hard to imagine.

Paying security would require both a common currency and a need on their part for that currency. For them to want to guard someone else's resources for pay, they would first have to be dispossessed of the resources needed to provide for their own needs. Which would presuppose the system of property you're trying to protect.
#14388555
Paradigm wrote:Paying security would require both a common currency and a need on their part for that currency. For them to want to guard someone else's resources for pay, they would first have to be dispossessed of the resources needed to provide for their own needs. Which would presuppose the system of property you're trying to protect.

By resources.. you mean ipods, chinese takeaways, action figures for their child's birthday, 3 piece sofas and holidays in Ibiza right?
#14388561
Paradigm wrote:I means access to the means of production, which would allow one to produce many of those things, or things with which to trade for those things.

What in real terms does "access to the means of production" mean for someone who likes gaurding things? Wouldn't access to the means of production mean buying a tazer, a flashlight and having some business cards printed up that says "call me, I'll protect your stuff while you are away"?

Is it not the case that people do not want "access to means of production" they want access to the fruits of production. They produce so they have something to trade for the fruits of other people's production.
User avatar
By AFAIK
#14388683
Paradigm, how do you envision the transitional period unfolding? People are accustomed to capitalistic modes of production and many would consider it to be legitimate and appropriate for an absentee owner to charge rent and evict tenants from his or her properties or to own a factory's output whilst paying the factory's workers a wage. I think it would be easy for capitalists to convince those serving in public and private security institutions to forcefully maintain the status quo in the early stages of a revolution.

Those working office jobs for large companies have a very abstract connection with the means of production and are more focused on their career paths. Do you feel anarcho- syndicalism is relevant to them?

How long do you think it would take for people's attitudes to the new relationship with the means of production to normalise? How would you enforce your ideology in the mean time?
#14388924
AFAIK wrote:Paradigm, how do you envision the transitional period unfolding? People are accustomed to capitalistic modes of production and many would consider it to be legitimate and appropriate for an absentee owner to charge rent and evict tenants from his or her properties or to own a factory's output whilst paying the factory's workers a wage. I think it would be easy for capitalists to convince those serving in public and private security institutions to forcefully maintain the status quo in the early stages of a revolution.

And who would they call when they see a tenant not paying their rent? The police? Most people don't tend to take those matters into their own hands. The transition toward anarchy would involve building new horizontal social structures amid a weakening state. The project will be successful to the extent that people see the new institutions as legitimate, and thereby learn to apply the new rules around property, exchange, etc. If that project fails, a weakening state will instead lead to more of a Somalia-like situation, in which bands of warlords compete for power. In either case, the idea that ordinary people would make much of a fuss about tenants not paying their rent doesn't seem very plausible.
User avatar
By AFAIK
#14388947
The landlord would call the police, private security or even the mafia. He or she could contact the tenants guarantor or employer if providing this information was part of the rental agreement. My concern isn't neighbours narking on you; it's whether or not the police will enforce absentee ownership of property. Many anarchists argue that we won't need a professional police force, which suggests the cops will be inclined to side with the capitalists out of self interests and with the state as a matter of course/ habit.
#14388950
AFAIK wrote:The landlord would call the police, private security or even the mafia. He or she could contact the tenants guarantor or employer if providing this information was part of the rental agreement. My concern isn't neighbours narking on you; it's whether or not the police will enforce absentee ownership of property. Many anarchists argue that we won't need a professional police force, which suggests the cops will be inclined to side with the capitalists out of self interests and with the state as a matter of course/ habit.

Yes, that's true under the precise system we are trying to overthrow. What's your point?
User avatar
By AFAIK
#14388959
How do you overthrow the system if you cannot use the coercive instruments of the state? The goal of anarchism is admirable but the deck is stacked against you if you're developing this system from scratch.
#14388973
AFAIK wrote:How do you overthrow the system if you cannot use the coercive instruments of the state? The goal of anarchism is admirable but the deck is stacked against you if you're developing this system from scratch.

No one says it will be easy. Revolutions never are. But a major part of overthrowing the system is to find areas where it is weak, in build institutions that fill those needs better. Building solidarity among the oppressed classes will be central. A single tenant facing eviction from their landlord is not likely to fare well. But a massive rent strike supported by the community has a far greater chance of success. The trick is to get people to turn to one another rather than to the state or various market institutions, and thereby realize their own power.

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