[Saeko]

“Last night I taught my daughter about democracy by asking her to vote for the pizza she wanted to eat and then I ordered fried rice because I am the one with the money.”

Guess who's gonna end up in a shitty nursing home.

[Saeko]

Indeed, a lot of people that are against mass politics (which is what democracy is), the falsely frame it as some sort of weird thing were people vote because they are asking to be controlled. Really fucking weird. We're in reality, its simply about trying to influence were people en masse believe society should go.

Also, this weird idea that you can just "do what you want" which is what the OP seems to be suggesting, is basically... stupid. As do you really could just do whatever you want without consequence or impact to others.

The main problem is that a whole lot of leftists haven't a single strategic thought in their heads. You don't vote because there's any chance that you can vote your way out of capitalism. You vote because it prevents the opponent from playing the move that improves his position the most and it forces him to make tiny concessions that will eventually build up into an overwhelming advantage.

In short, you don't reform your way out of capitalism and into socialism, and you don't wait for a miraculous revolution. You reform your way into a winning position so that, when the revolution does come, its success will be inevitable.

[Potemkin]

The main problem is that a whole lot of leftists haven't a single strategic thought in their heads. You don't vote because there's any chance that you can vote your way out of capitalism. You vote because it prevents the opponent from playing the move that improves his position the most and it forces him to make tiny concessions that will eventually build up into an overwhelming advantage.

In short, you don't reform your way out of capitalism and into socialism, and you don't wait for a miraculous revolution. You reform your way into a winning position so that, when the revolution does come, its success will be inevitable.

Precisely. Gramsci called this "a war of manoeuvre". It's like playing a game of chess. Refusing to vote is like refusing to play any move at all because you can't deliver checkmate in one move.

[Rancid]

The main problem is that a whole lot of leftists haven't a single strategic thought in their heads. You don't vote because there's any chance that you can vote your way out of capitalism. You vote because it prevents the opponent from playing the move that improves his position the most and it forces him to make tiny concessions that will eventually build up into an overwhelming advantage.

In short, you don't reform your way out of capitalism and into socialism, and you don't wait for a miraculous revolution. You reform your way into a winning position so that, when the revolution does come, its success will be inevitable.

Precisely. Gramsci called this "a war of manoeuvre". It's like playing a game of chess. Refusing to vote is like refusing to play any move at all because you can't deliver checkmate in one move.

Absolutely yes to both of you. Additionally, what these leftist haven't learned from history is this basic fact:

When the right is uniting under the banner of fascism/authoritarianism and has become a real threat to all. This is not a time for the left to be divided. This provides the window for the extreme right to exploit and take over (divide and conquer).... see Nazi Germany as the easy example of this.

This seems to be the history of leftist movements. They completely miss the big picture.

[Potemkin]

Absolutely yes to both of you. Additionally, what these leftist haven't learned from history is this basic fact:

When the right is uniting under the banner of fascism/authoritarianism and has become a real threat to all. This is not a time for the left to be divided. This provides the window for the extreme right to exploit and take over (divide and conquer).... see Nazi Germany as the easy example of this.

This seems to be the history of leftist movements. They completely miss the big picture.

Indeed. Too many splitters....

[Rancid]

Indeed. Too many splitters....

It's crazy though. Using the American political spectrum, I'm center-right (which is probably solidly right wing on the international spectrum). That said, I also see how fucking bonkers and insidious the MAGA position is. I also see how the rest of the Republican party is either full on MAGA or trying to use it to better their own political position. In short, non-MAGA republicans are playing with fire, a fire they will likely lose control of and precipitate the end of the American experiment. Hence why I can't vote for them until MAGA is beat down and kicked out. Cheney... of all fucking people, understands this.

Anyway, as a result, I am full ready to lock arms with the dirty leftist to beat back this lunacy. Yet.... somehow.... they just can't get it together enough, even with someone like me, willing to join them. Why?

Sure, democrats pushed back again history. History say's, they should have lost really really really big by now. Still, MAGA's got into elected positions now. Like sleeper cells. Ready to fuck with the system as we move forward.

[Saeko]

Precisely. Gramsci called this "a war of manoeuvre". It's like playing a game of chess. Refusing to vote is like refusing to play any move at all because you can't deliver checkmate in one move.

I was gonna say this EXACTLY in my previous post but decided against it because most people wouldn't understand the chess analogy.

This is actually a very common problem among players below my level. To them, if a move isn't immediately winning, then it's bad. Full stop. As a result, they are completely incapable of considering (much less playing) moves that slowly build an attack, and are unable to see an attack coming their way.

Games of chess (when played well) aren't won because the opponent suddenly makes some catastrophic mistake. They are won because the eventual loser was forced into making a long series of small concessions that culminated in an indefensible position.

[wat0n]

This thread is reading like making survival strategies for the zombie apocalypse.

[late]

This thread is reading like making survival strategies for the zombie apocalypse.

I several pounds of coffee beans, but no way to grind them if there's no power. Without coffee or tea, I'm a zombie.

Brains are no substitute for coffee..

[Potemkin]

:eek: I was gonna say this EXACTLY in my previous post but decided against it because most people wouldn't understand the chess analogy.

I never let considerations like that hold me back, @Saeko. If somebody can't understand one of my posts, then they had better do some research until they do understand it. Google is your friend. And if they can't be bothered to make the effort, then fuck 'em. I'm not going to give them the Janet and John version of reality just to make them feel smart. They're lazy idiots, and they should feel like lazy idiots.

This is actually a very common problem among players below my level. To them, if a move isn't immediately winning, then it's bad. Full stop. As a result, they are completely incapable of considering (much less playing) moves that slowly build an attack, and are unable to see an attack coming their way.

Games of chess (when played well) aren't won because the opponent suddenly makes some catastrophic mistake. They are won because the eventual loser was forced into making a long series of small concessions that culminated in an indefensible position.

Precisely. And this is what politics is all about: manoeuvring your opponent into a losing position....

[Saeko]

@Potemkin

I realize I just kind of repeated myself there. Let me try that again.

Many leftists believe (correctly) that they are in a losing position when it comes to voting. And so, they conclude (again, correctly) that even their best move will leave them worse off than they were before. Therefore, they conclude (incorrectly) that they are actually in zugzwang and the best move is to not play at all.

There are two problems with their analysis:

1) They are actually OVER-estimating their position. A losing position is not the same as zugzwang. In zugzwang, doing nothing (i.e. "passing") actually IS better than any move. If it were legal, the game would result in a draw. In a losing position, however, doing nothing only hastens defeat.

2) The correct way to play from a losing position is definitely not further passivity. When you are losing, you must do everything possible to complicate things and constantly present the opponent with new problems to solve in hopes of moving the needle from "losing" to either "unclear" or "equal".

[Potemkin]

@Potemkin

I realize I just kind of repeated myself there. Let me try that again.

Many leftists believe (correctly) that they are in a losing position when it comes to voting. And so, they conclude (again, correctly) that even their best move will leave them worse off than they were before. Therefore, they conclude (incorrectly) that they are actually in zugzwang and the best move is to not play at all.

There are two problems with their analysis:

1) They are actually OVER-estimating their position. A losing position is not the same as zugzwang. In zugzwang, doing nothing (i.e. "passing") actually IS better than any move. If it were legal, the game would result in a draw. In a losing position, however, doing nothing only hastens defeat.

2) The correct way to play from a losing position is definitely not further passivity. When you are losing, you must do everything possible to complicate things and constantly present the opponent with new problems to solve in hopes of moving the needle from "losing" to either "unclear" or "equal".

Bottom line: in chess, as in life, doing nothing is not an option.

[Saeko]

Bottom line: in chess, as in life, doing nothing is not an option.

The tl;dr is that leftists think they have the LUXURY of doing nothing. They don't.

[JohnRawls]

The tl;dr is that leftists think they have the LUXURY of doing nothing. They don't.

Sort off. The problem with leftists is that they have been taught that magical revolution will come and change everything. Reality is that it rarely comes unless the ruling elite is truly incompetent but even if it comes putting people with 0 administrative or government experience to conduct massive and really fast change leads to a disaster. The problem is much wider for them.

[JohnRawls]

Question for the haters:

When was the last time your vote affected meaningful change for those most effected by your neoliberal government's existence?

In the last 5 main elections I voted(to simplefy I'll just write general characteristics):

1) Centrist party, a bit pro Russiam Estonian party nothing hardcore - took executive.
2) Socialists - massive gain - became part of executive - conducted change in executive coalition.
3) Conservatives - Centre right party - Socialists went a bit overboard with taxes so we needed a change. Overall change was fine. Conservatives back in charge and coalitions
4) Conservatives ( just because they didn't do dumb shit) different coalitions but conservatives still top dogs and at some point centrists with radical right formed executive.
5) Conservatives. The only choice to fully prevent radical right from becoming part of executive coalition since Centrist party wanted to have coalition with radical right so fuck them.


So you see, in all cases I got what I wanted for.

[MadMonk]

I can see two strategic reasons for someone on the 'left-wing spectrum' to not vote if one believes that the supposed democratic system is a sham.

First, the system derives its legitimacy from the participation of its people (in theory, its voters). The fewer voters it gets in comparison to its people, the less legitimacy it can claim.

Second, the least bad option might be the worse option in the long-run. If one believes that the US is already a fascist state, and has been for most or all of its existence, indirectly appointing the worst mouth breathing ogres known to man can expose this to more people and galvanize recruitment to your cause.

As always, I have no strong opinion one way or the other. I raise the grey flag of neutrality.

[Morgan Le Fey]

This thread is reading like making survival strategies for the zombie apocalypse.

Thats not on me.

“Last night I taught my daughter about democracy by asking her to vote for the pizza she wanted to eat and then I ordered fried rice because I am the one with the money.”

You're the smartest one in the room amigo. I salute you for it.

The main problem is that a whole lot of leftists haven't a single strategic thought in their heads.

The weird thing is that all the pretentious neo libs have no sense of arguing in good faith. Rather its one massive troll-spam that all reads like you watch Cnn,Fox,MSNBC,OANN lol.

Not voting as an Anarchist isn't about some vague bullshit its about knowingly thumbing your nose at the Imperium and doing what you know is right anyway.

You say ingliz will go to a bad nursing home but the whole concept of a nursing is a bankruptcy caused by Capitalism itself.

Yet, you want to disingenuously argue that Biden is anything but a cog in the wheel, as they all are. I had a lot to personally fear from Trump. I also spent two years squatting in major American city doing Activisms few are capable of. So keep in mind I practice my life in real time even at this very moment.

You simply won't keep up if you can't recognize Revolutionary Politics like the reds, but a lot more black.

Precisely. Gramsci called this "a war of maneuver". It's like playing a game of chess. Refusing to vote is like refusing to play any move at all because you can't deliver checkmate in one move.

Now Doctor, you of all people must understand Anarchist philosophy. I ain't no nationalist ever, but even I recognize Scottish Independence is a right, as I do all peoples. You may subborn your loyalty to a state, but to agree with neoliberals seems odd.

Is that an icepick I see behind you?

When the right is uniting under the banner of fascism/authoritarianism and has become a real threat to all. This is not a time for the left to be divided. This provides the window for the extreme right to exploit and take over (divide and conquer).... see Nazi Germany as the easy example of this.

I'm literal German diaspora who has literally helped keep tabs on Nazis in the state I was living in. Look up the doofus who inspired The Base. Not the kid, the old fuck who wrote the Nazi shit in the 60s.

You people know nothing of opposing Nazis, I literally wear the Iron Front logo on my arm, though I am also Anti-Capitalist.

If you don't know what that means, don't presume to lecture me about Nazis. I have a blood-duty to prevent their existence. You're just some guy. Like I said, I've been living street Anarchy, and I'm older than most here, not some kid with zits.

Anyway, as a result, I am full ready to lock arms with the dirty leftist to beat back this lunacy. Yet.... somehow.... they just can't get it together enough, even with someone like me, willing to join them. Why?

I'm not a liberal. You want me as your ally get your ass in the street. Your vote means nothing to me. When I see your blood or sweat you can begin trying to impress me.

Games of chess (when played well) aren't won because the opponent suddenly makes some catastrophic mistake. They are won because the eventual loser was forced into making a long series of small concessions that culminated in an indefensible position.

Lots of talk, no evidence this means anything more than just standard right-wing misinformative mumbo jumbo.

I several pounds of coffee beans, but no way to grind them if there's no power. Without coffee or tea, I'm a zombie.

Brains are no substitute for coffee..

Then you should have me along to both plant the permaculture forest that will feed you, but to fend off enemies for you, and even show you how to generate sufficient off-grid power to drink coffee all fucking day if you want too!

Weird how dependent you people are on your creature comforts. Call me when you can freeze every night for months when you sleep, or sweat in 90+ (F) heat.

Oh wait, you're 71. Sorry, I'll do it all you still there and be old.

Many leftists believe (correctly) that they are in a losing position when it comes to voting.

I am not a neoliberal nor this nebulous "leftist" you keep warbling about.

I'm a flat black flag Anarchist. I hate all states and smash all flags. You can wipe yourself when soiled with a black flag if you choose.

The real issue is while you idiots are stuck with your chessboards and linear, pre-selected conflicts, I am going about creating new paradigms as do all Anarchists. We care about the local environment we can control before we get lost in the "Big" politics.

Anarchy is simple to be honest. It's also purposely vague because anyone can do it, even an-caps, but so far you're so dishonest and so busy regurgitating sound bytes I'm not sure what point there is speaking to you as you know nothing, as yet, of relevance.

In the last 5 main elections I voted(to simplefy I'll just write general characteristics):

1) Centrist party, a bit pro Russiam Estonian party nothing hardcore - took executive.
2) Socialists - massive gain - became part of executive - conducted change in executive coalition.
3) Conservatives - Centre right party - Socialists went a bit overboard with taxes so we needed a change. Overall change was fine. Conservatives back in charge and coalitions
4) Conservatives ( just because they didn't do dumb shit) different coalitions but conservatives still top dogs and at some point centrists with radical right formed executive.
5) Conservatives. The only choice to fully prevent radical right from becoming part of executive coalition since Centrist party wanted to have coalition with radical right so fuck them.


So you see, in all cases I got what I wanted for.

Literally NONE if this wrought fundamental change to your people. These are all all relatively minor policy decisions that will look less significant in 50 years, if not 20. Same as the US.

[JohnRawls]

Thats not on me.



You're the smartest one in the room amigo. I salute you for it.



The weird thing is that all the pretentious neo libs have no sense of arguing in good faith. Rather its one massive troll-spam that all reads like you watch Cnn,Fox,MSNBC,OANN lol.

Not voting as an Anarchist isn't about some vague bullshit its about knowingly thumbing your nose at the Imperium and doing what you know is right anyway.

You say ingliz will go to a bad nursing home but the whole concept of a nursing is a bankruptcy caused by Capitalism itself.

Yet, you want to disingenuously argue that Biden is anything but a cog in the wheel, as they all are. I had a lot to personally fear from Trump. I also spent two years squatting in major American city doing Activisms few are capable of. So keep in mind I practice my life in real time even at this very moment.

You simply won't keep up if you can't recognize Revolutionary Politics like the reds, but a lot more black.



Now Doctor, you of all people must understand Anarchist philosophy. I ain't no nationalist ever, but even I recognize Scottish Independence is a right, as I do all peoples. You may subborn your loyalty to a state, but to agree with neoliberals seems odd.

Is that an icepick I see behind you?



I'm literal German diaspora who has literally helped keep tabs on Nazis in the state I was living in. Look up the doofus who inspired The Base. Not the kid, the old fuck who wrote the Nazi shit in the 60s.

You people know nothing of opposing Nazis, I literally wear the Iron Front logo on my arm, though I am also Anti-Capitalist.

If you don't know what that means, don't presume to lecture me about Nazis. I have a blood-duty to prevent their existence. You're just some guy. Like I said, I've been living street Anarchy, and I'm older than most here, not some kid with zits.



I'm not a liberal. You want me as your ally get your ass in the street. Your vote means nothing to me. When I see your blood or sweat you can begin trying to impress me.



Lots of talk, no evidence this means anything more than just standard right-wing misinformative mumbo jumbo.



Then you should have me along to both plant the permaculture forest that will feed you, but to fend off enemies for you, and even show you how to generate sufficient off-grid power to drink coffee all fucking day if you want too!

Weird how dependent you people are on your creature comforts. Call me when you can freeze every night for months when you sleep, or sweat in 90+ (F) heat.

Oh wait, you're 71. Sorry, I'll do it all you still there and be old.


I am not a neoliberal nor this nebulous "leftist" you keep warbling about.

I'm a flat black flag Anarchist. I hate all states and smash all flags. You can wipe yourself when soiled with a black flag if you choose.

The real issue is while you idiots are stuck with your chessboards and linear, pre-selected conflicts, I am going about creating new paradigms as do all Anarchists. We care about the local environment we can control before we get lost in the "Big" politics.

Anarchy is simple to be honest. It's also purposely vague because anyone can do it, even an-caps, but so far you're so dishonest and so busy regurgitating sound bytes I'm not sure what point there is speaking to you as you know nothing, as yet, of relevance.



Literally NONE if this wrought fundamental change to your people. These are all all relatively minor policy decisions that will look less significant in 50 years, if not 20. Same as the US.

Nominal
GDP per capita Estonia 1991 ~1500
GDP per capita Estonia 2021 ~28000

[Potemkin]

I can see two strategic reasons for someone on the 'left-wing spectrum' to not vote if one believes that the supposed democratic system is a sham.

First, the system derives its legitimacy from the participation of its people (in theory, its voters). The fewer voters it gets in comparison to its people, the less legitimacy it can claim.

Second, the least bad option might be the worse option in the long-run. If one believes that the US is already a fascist state, and has been for most or all of its existence, indirectly appointing the worst mouth breathing ogres known to man can expose this to more people and galvanize recruitment to your cause.

As always, I have no strong opinion one way or the other. I raise the grey flag of neutrality.

[MadMonk]

@Potemkin

I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

- The Velour Fog