[foxdemon]

It is time for my annual ANZAC day thread. As in the past, I will appeal for people to reflect on the meaning of ANZAC day.

The most simple meaning of ANZAC day is for Australians and New Zealanders to remember those who of us have fallen in war.


Here is the Ode:


"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."


Beyond this central meaning, there is no consensus on how to explain this meaning in relation to our attitude to war. I see two main schools of thought, those who appeal to the sacrifice made by soldiers in the past as a way of fostering a martial spirit in the current generation of young people, and there is another school of thought that sees a message of the futility and waste of war that we ought reflect on before thinking about getting involved in more wars.


I have previously shared some stories of my own ancestors involvement in the ANZAC militray history. Today I will add two more that my uncle has brought to my attention through family history reearch.



The first story is about an uncle of my father's mother. I will leave his name annonymous. The records we have show he went to Egypt in 1915 along with many other young men for training. By 1916, he had been moved to southern France and then up to the western front. Within two weeks he was amongst the causulties at the battle of the Somme. There was no identifiable remains to be recovered from him or his comrades. This was typical of the situation on the western front. Dense infantry formations were met with concentrated artillary which resulted in the soldiers being obliterated and the remains buried under successive barrages. It is hard to imagine the slaughter at battles like the Somme. My grandmother's uncle was only 21 years old. The rest of the documentation related to the efforts of his mother to find out his fate, where his remains were and what personal effects might be recovered. That corespondence continued to 1921.


The second story, about a brother of my father's grandfather. This fellow survived until 1917, but was killed by an artillary round while blazing away with a Lewis gun in support of his unit. At least he lived long enough to become a real soldier and went out in fighting (he was 27 at the time of his death). The remainer of the records were of the same narure as the first story, letters of corespondence with the army administration by the mother to find out his fate, the location of his remains and what effects, if any, might be recovered. The corespondence ended in 1921.



A previous years' story I related was that of my mother's grandfather who fought at Galipolli and the western front, who was a casuality of a gas attack and died from the gas damage in the 1920's. All three stories are typical of the stories of the men who fought in the 'Great War'.


Given the apparent lack of purpose in world war I and the great slaughter of young lives that went with it, there was a strong movement in the 1920's to reject war (eg: the war to end all wars). There were many at the time who reflected on how Australians and New Zealanders had been caught up in war hysteria at the out break of WWI and had marched off proudly, to be back by Christmas. The horrors they suffered and the men that were lost lead them to form the veiw that we ought avoid being caught up in jigoism and hysteria lest we send our young people through the same thing that genreation went through in WW1.

I wonder if this way of seeing things has fallen out of favour these days. Our policial leaders speak of remembering the sacrifice but there seems to be an implication that our current young people ought to be ready to do the same thing without question. The hard earnt wisdom of the 1920's seems to have been forgotten.



Anyway, what does ANZAC day mean to you?

[benpenguin]

A day dedicated to a war thats as significant as a loud fart in Siberia.

[foxdemon]

Benpenguine, your post does very little to raise the quality of discusion on pofo. Nor does it meet the standards of the rules for this forum. But, going by the sentiments you express, I guess you are self centred and not the sort of person that worries much about matters of community.

[GandalfTheGrey]

I wonder if this way of seeing things has fallen out of favour these days. Our policial leaders speak of remembering the sacrifice but there seems to be an implication that our current young people ought to be ready to do the same thing without question.

Yes, I think you are right.

One reason could be the Vietnam effect - where veterans were pilloried when they returned - because of the whole anti-war movement. And for a long time Vietnam vets didn't march. The increased worship of our vets (and the jingoism that has gone with that) that we have been seeing since the 80s is probably to some degree at least, a backlash against this wrong treatment. This is evidenced by the fact that one of the central themes of the modern "anzac spirit" is to not blame our brave boys for fighting in screwed up wars. In fact this sentiment has expressed itself not just in vietnam vets, but very strongly in the original Anzacs. Galliopoli, as well as the western front that the Anzacs went on to fight on, was botched from A to Z - and thats indeed part of the legend - our brave boys were fighting and dying while, as Bill Gammage famously quipped, "the British were sipping tea".

Another reason that just occured to me is the way we deal with a dying generation. So it can be argued that the increased interest in Anzac day (and I would argue the jingoism), started when the end of the original Anzac generation was in sight. How to preserve this generation after the last of them has died? So we start "treasuring" this dying breed, and worshipping them in the process. This inevitably draws comparisons with the younger generations, and implicit questions like "look what these brave men did in their youth - what are you doing?". Now that this generation has died, we see the same thing happening with the WWII generation, whose average age is now over 90. It will be interesting to see how we will deal with Anzac day once both generations have died out.

[ThirdTerm]

[youtube]7eeijbtbnjQ[/youtube]

I remember picking up a military history book titled 'Gallipoli' in Australia and Anzac Day is meant to honour the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC) who fought at Gallipoli during World War I. The Gallipoli Campaign was a military disaster, which almost terminated Churchill's political career and contributed to the collapse of the Asquith government, but the campaign is considered to mark the birth of national consciousness in Australia and New Zealand.

[foxdemon]

Gandalf,

that is the point I like to make each year. To remind people ANZAC day is about remembering that in war, people get killed. It's not a happy day, really.

Yet, when I walked around yesterday morning I observed a lot of well dressed people off to the dawn services with chests puffed out and a self satisifed look on their faces. It seemed to me that thoughts about those who had died in war were not on these people's mind. In my opinion they have missed the point of ANZAC day.

Another matter is the ambitions of our policial leaders. When Australia supports a powerful ally in war, our leaders get the chance to pretend they are bigger and more powerful in the world than they really are. Consider John Howard during the Bush years. The wars in the middle east gave him the chance to strut around Washingtion pretending he was a mighty leader. It saddens me to think that our young people are asked to sacrifice everything to feed the egos of such irresponsible politicians.

There are, however, times when war can't be avoid. There will be a time when we have to go to war. Such an occasion ought be met with extreme gravity, not jigoisitc hysteria as though it were some sports game.

The bottom line is, in my opinion, that ANZAC day is an occasion to remember that if we go to war, some of us will die.





Third Term,

your post is well informed and a good contribution to the thread. Thank you.

[colliric]

It will be interesting to see how we will deal with Anzac day once both generations have died out.

It'll just "tick over" to Korea, followed by Vietnam and then Iraq(First Gulf War), in my opinion, although there were less soldiers/deaths and Veterans from these, and Australia's involvement in the three of them wasn't exactly "perfect". Nevertheless, that's what will happen(and already is). I'm more interested in what will happen to the RSL's, which is more interesting to me. They seem to have gotten very commercially minded of late, what with Pokies and all.

The Day itself won't "lose" impact, that's for sure. There's always some war(in which Australians are being killed), to feel terrible about in this world.

[The Immortal Goon]

The Gallipoli Campaign was a military disaster, which almost terminated Churchill's political career and contributed to the collapse of the Asquith government, but the campaign is considered to mark the birth of national consciousness in Australia and New Zealand.

It also, essentially, started the Irish Revolution. That, followed by the 1913 Labour trouble, made revolution pretty much inevitable.

The much-touted Irish 10th Division that was supposed to demonstrate Irish loyalty to their newly won (but not enacted) Home Rule was sent out to fight. The British (as with everyone back then) had these ass-backward views of people as martial races or not martial races. The English were best at planning, the Scots best at guarding, and the Irish best at going out there and fighting. And, to be fair, this was something that the Irish were guilty of promoting as well.

Regardless, when they sent the 10th to Gallipoli they took away its artillery and several of the weapons to be given to other units. John Redmond, the leader of nationalist Ireland, begged Asquith to arm the Irish before sending them out.

They did not.

It was, of course, a fucking disaster. The 10th, without all of their weapons, supplies, and with no artillery, were particularly vulnerable and wrecked. What few remained joined the ANZAC for a while and then were distributed elsewhere.

The worst part of this, however, was that the British tried to cover it up. The official communication was, "This unit wrought miracles," as they did do astoundingly well despite, as the official statements in government (and only in government) said, "The Irish 10th has Virtually ceased to exist."

People back in Ireland were waiting to hear any kind of news about their sons, husbands, and brothers, but they tried to cover it up. Redmond eventually got the news out there, but that only further hurt his own standing. He had hoped that nationalists and unionists would learn to work together in the war, but Carson's 36th unit—reserved only for unionists and given special designations and patches and training and everything nationalists didn't get—was on the sidelines being trained and waiting for cutting-edge weapons while the nationalists had all but died.

The 36th, of course, was cut down and fought heroically when they were put out there—and this mutual sacrifice in WWI has been a deliberate part of the Irish peace process.

Nonetheless, at the time nationalist Ireland no longer trusted the government, the British, and were less willing to compromise with unionists as a result of the campaign.

I point this out, in part, because I think it's interesting how the same battle with similar units can take on different meanings. Whereas nationalist Ireland was ready to drop the mic on the whole thing, ANZAC became a point of British and Australian pride and cooperation.

[colliric]

Good post Swagman, interesting.

[AVT]

I think their is a lack of understanding from the younger generations as they find it difficult to identify with the extreme sacrifice made by the young men who began the ANZAC tradition. This is mainly because to most Australian's sacrifice these days means going without the latest iPhone for a few weeks, it is hard for people to empathise with the sombre message when they have (not through their fault) not suffered any hardships themselves.

Also I don't think their attitudes are jingoistic at all, non one is pushing for the forceful oppression of anyone, rather it is pride and mysticism in an ANZAC myth that has now become thoroughly detached from reality. This is in itself is dangerous because it stops them questioning the merits of individual wars and instead ensures that any large conflict will have ample recuits to follow in the 'ANZAC tradition'.

[Decky]

It should be a day of mourning for the working class lads send to kill and die fighting other working class lads that they had no quarrel with.

It was not war it was mass murder by the global rich.

[colliric]

Anyone putting in for the Gallipoli Ballot? I already have.

[foxdemon]

Nah, not me. Possibly one of my relatives will though.

[colliric]

Nah, not me. Possibly one of my relatives will though.

Why not? anyone can. They will favour relatives obviously, but you can also put in.

[foxdemon]

My ancestor at Gallipoli was my mother's grandfather. So the eldest son still alive is her bother (my uncle). Could be he will go or his son or his grandson. Most likely the grandson. He's the one who wears my great grandfather's and my grandfather's medals in the march.