Working for the dole - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in Australia.

Moderator: PoFo Asia & Australasia Mods

Forum rules: No one-line posts please.
User avatar
By Bounce
#14496404
The Guardian wrote:More than 30,000 mostly Indigenous people will suffer “immediate consequences” for their “passive welfare behaviour” if they fail to work for the dole five days a week, 12 months a year, according to leaked briefing notes for the government’s new remote jobs scheme.

The government has announced it will make immediate changes to the remote jobs and communities program (RJCP) because it says the current scheme, introduced by the former Labor government, is a “disaster” and a “comprehensive failure”.

The Indigenous affairs minister, Nigel Scullion, has said the remote scheme will require people to work five days a week, 12 months a year to get the dole, compared with the six months the government will require of benefit recipients in urban and regional areas.

Details of the policy, obtained by Guardian Australia, reveal the extremely strict fine print, as well as the government’s rationale for the changes.

The documents show job providers will be “contractually obliged to report non-compliance” and will no longer have any discretion over whether to report unemployed people who are not meeting all their requirements.

“The changes proposed will ensure RCJP job seekers do attend their appointment or feel the consequence of their passive welfare behaviour more immediately,” a briefing document titled “defensive questions and answers” says.

“Job seekers will learn the behaviours expected of workers, for example by there being immediate consequences for passive welfare behaviour.”

It says the continuous work for the dole for all 18- to 49-year-olds, is being introduced only in remote Australia, because in those areas there are “limited or no real labour markets, as well as unique social problems that stem from passive welfare. These social problems stem from idleness and are making communities unsafe and dysfunctional.

“We need to set expectations in remote communities that build the same behaviours and norms of workers in ordinary Australian workplaces.”

But it also says the government is cutting payments to job providers for job seekers completing basic certificate I and II training courses because this is usually “training for training’s sake” and “training must be linked to real jobs”.

The current scheme has helped 618 people in the past 15 months get a job, but Scullion has argued it is a failure because in the 2013-14 financial year only 277 job seekers found jobs for longer than six months. He has not said whether the changes will result in savings from the allocated budget for the program of $1.5bn over five years.

Job providers will get $12,450 a year for job seekers undertaking work for the dole. But existing payments to help job seekers buy clothing and equipment for training will no longer be available.

The changes are the government’s first response to the Indigenous employment report from mining magnate Andrew Forrest, and will be rolled out between July 2015 and July 2016. Workers will be moved onto the new scheme from the old Community Development Employment Projects, which offered almost $40 a week more for 10 hours fewer a week.

“This will place every eligible job seeker in remote Australia in an equivalent environment with regards to payments, expectations and requirements,” the briefing notes say.

“The reformed RJCP will give job seekers the opportunity to be continuously engaged in work for the dole activities, five days a week, all year round – just like a real job.”


Isn't this - again - just free labor? It reminds of Prussian Socialism in that it allows conservative parties to socialise labor and place the hardship on the 'lower'/'ostracised' classes, in return for being part of a state.


I'm not sure if this should be in Today's News. I'm also interested if anyone here thinks that this is a defensible law - does it actually have some benefit for those on the dole?
User avatar
By Old_Hat
#14496444
These proposals do not benefit the unemployed in the slightest. It's just more scapegoating of the poor in an attempt to garner votes from the ill advised. If an employer can get someone to work for them for free where is the incentive to hire?
#14496720
Basically this program will force people in remote areas to work in some bullshit activity for a year and then these same people will then be unemployed. It is open to fraud and how is the sceme to be policed is another matter. It seems to be a load of hype and bullshit that makes a good headline.
User avatar
By Eauz
#14496803
Article wrote:only in remote Australia, because in those areas there are “limited or no real labour markets, as well as unique social problems that stem from passive welfare. These social problems stem from idleness and are making communities unsafe and dysfunctional.
Wow, what great rational. Aside from the poor use of grammar in the sentence, it is interesting that we've made it impossible for many of the natives to live their culture and are now saying that you need to do work, despite the fact that they are no real labour markets where they are. The neoliberal state is really getting desperate to divest itself of any social responsibility, yet it somehow expects us to just accept their continuous rule over the land while they profit?
#14496876
The same time they are making the aborigines work they are going to bulldoze many aboriginal settlements.

Shutting down Australia's Aboriginal areas
New funding laws threaten the existence of remote indigenous communities already facing profound social issues.
Royce Kurmelovs Last updated: 07 Dec 2014 12:51

Remote government-funded communities are facing closures [Marieke Ceranna/Amnesty International Australia]
Perth, Australia - The West Australian state government may bulldoze 150 remote indigenous communities that it says are too expensive to keep open under a new funding arrangement between federal and state authorities.

Canberra has offered each state a one-time, lump-sum payment to take over the responsibility of financing remote Aboriginal communities indefinitely.

In an ultimatum, Western Australia was offered $90m, enough to fund remote communities through to 2017.

But as of June 30, 2015, past federal funding agreements will end, effectively giving Western Australia authorities about seven months before they must start working out how to fund remote communities in the future - and which ones will have to close.

Similar arrangements have been made with South Australian, Queensland, Victorian and Tasmanian state governments.

All have so far remained silent on the details with the exception of South Australia, which rejected a $10m payment on the basis that it was not enough for the obligation being created.

South Australia's Minister for Aboriginal Affairs and Reconciliation Ian Hunter warned if his government was forced to accept the new arrangement, 60 remote communities - home to 4,000 people - would have to close.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#14500563
WftD past can deter employers from accepting employment applications also. More educational, etc, opportunities and actual employment growth will reduce unemployment. This is just typical Right-wing punishing the poor for simply being poor.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#14502832
And now, Scott Morrison is the Social Services minister. OMG!
User avatar
By Rejn
#14502898
Bounce wrote:Isn't this - again - just free labor? It reminds of Prussian Socialism in that it allows conservative parties to socialise labor and place the hardship on the 'lower'/'ostracised' classes, in return for being part of a state.

I'm not sure if this should be in Today's News. I'm also interested if anyone here thinks that this is a defensible law - does it actually have some benefit for those on the dole?

For those on the dole, it means that they'll actually be doing something rather than sitting at home. It means they'll be socialising with real working people, in an environment that can increase their motivation, and give them an opportunity to achieve.

Old_Hat wrote:These proposals do not benefit the unemployed in the slightest. It's just more scapegoating of the poor in an attempt to garner votes from the ill advised. If an employer can get someone to work for them for free where is the incentive to hire?

I don't consider there to be any obligation for us in the cities to continue to subsidise their alcohol and drug problems. At least in this situation, my temper is tempered by the fact that they'll be going to work and contributing to the economy like the rest of us.

anarchist23 wrote:Basically this program will force people in remote areas to work in some bullshit activity for a year and then these same people will then be unemployed. It is open to fraud and how is the sceme to be policed is another matter. It seems to be a load of hype and bullshit that makes a good headline.

You don't know that they'll be unemployed afterwards. We'll have to see in a years time.

How is it open to fraud, and what are the vulnerabilities that you're worried about?

redcarpet wrote:WftD past can deter employers from accepting employment applications also. More educational, etc, opportunities and actual employment growth will reduce unemployment. This is just typical Right-wing punishing the poor for simply being poor.

An example of punishing the poor for being poor would be to chain them and put them in sweatshops for no pay. At the moment, they're getting paid for doing nothing. Their benefactors want to see return on investment.

redcarpet wrote:And now, Scott Morrison is the Social Services minister. OMG!

Indeed, I'm sad to see him go from his successful stint as immigration minister, but I guess who would be better to clean up a department as desperate for leadership as this one.
#14502933
Rejn said that I did not know that they would be unemployed afterwards...

In the early 2000s, in work with my University of Melbourne colleague Yi-Ping Tseng that was funded by the Commonwealth Department of Family and Community Services, I examined how participation in Work for the Dole affected the amount of time an unemployed person spent in receipt of welfare payments.

We focused on the experiences of 888 Newstart allowance recipients aged 18 to 24 years who participated in the pilot phase of the Work for the Dole program from late 1997 to mid 1998. We were able to compare the group of WfD participants with Newstart allowance recipients who had the same characteristics (such as gender and age) and same labour market background (for example, living in a region with the same rate of unemployment, and having a similar personal history of welfare receipt in the past 12 months) but who had not participated in Work for the Dole.

The main finding from our study was that there appeared to be quite large adverse effects of participation in WfD.

Participants were less likely to move off payments. Six months after commencing in the Work for the Dole program, 71.4% of participants were still in receipt of unemployment payments, compared to only 59.1% of non-participants.

After six months this gap began to slowly reverse so that by 12 months the difference in the percentages who had exited from unemployment payments had narrowed from 12.3% to 10.3%.

But this meant that Work for the Dole participants were still substantially more likely to remain unemployed. A consequence of Work for the Dole participants moving off payments more slowly was that they spent a longer average amount of time in receipt of payments. By 12 months after commencing participation they had been in receipt of payments on average for 2.2 fortnights longer than those who did not participate in Work for the Dole.



Rein asked how is it open to fraud?
That 42 per cent of job-finding fees claimed by employment agencies were found to be genuine in a top-level audit released yesterday of the $4.7 billion welfare-to-work program.

As a result, some Job Services Australia providers - private firms and charities contracted by the government to help the unemployed find work - face the prospect of a fraud investigation.

The inquiry suggests the job-assistance industry improperly lodged as much as $106 million worth of false claims from the taxpayer in the past two years. Of this, $25.3 million was the extra loading designed to encourage agencies to source jobs themselves for their clients.

The audit reveals that in one case 77 per cent of job brokerage fees claimed by a provider were false or could not be verified.
#14502938
redcarpet wrote:Can we have links fro those quotes, please?


Sorry I will try. I am not very computer literate..I just googled "Work for Dole."



"If you're looking for work - or looking to dismantle a welfare safety net - there's no time to waste. Ben Eltham weighs in.

You’ve got to hand it to the Abbott government: it really knows how to grind an ideological axe.

That’s the only way to describe today’s announcement that Work for the Dole will be expanded and toughened yet again.

Work for the Dole doesn’t work, and the government knows its doesn’t work. But the imagery of punishing dole bludgers is far more important than the facts on the ground.

Once upon a time, Australia’s welfare system enjoyed little in the way of government regulation. If you were looking for work, and could satisfy a few simple tests, you could access unemployment support.

The system went hand-in-hand with a commitment by post-war Australian governments to full employment, supported by deficit spending, a strong public sector and high tariff walls.

As the post-war economic consensus collapsed in the stagflation of the 1970s, Australian governments responded by dismantling that system.

The tariff barriers were removed, the economy was opened to global competition, and ordinary citizens were increasingly told that they were responsible for their own fates.

Instead of the government committing to full employment and guaranteeing a basic income for those that couldn’t find work, jobseekers were told that they would have to earn their dole. The shift first began in the Hawke-Keating government, and has been gathering steam ever since.

As Kim Beazley told voters way back in 1994, “we’re moving to a concept of obligation. That is, after a period of time out of work there is an obligation on the government to provide training and work-related opportunities and an obligation on those receiving benefits to take them.”

Ever since, governments of both major parties have been huge fans of the idea. The Howard government turned it into “mutual obligation”, removed the work guarantee, toughened the penalties, and created a whole new industry of employment services providers to administer it.

Over the years, each successive government has strengthened the obligation on jobseekers, and loosed the mutuality. It’s been a slow creep of paternalism, endorsed by both major parties.

It’s a perfect example of the way the two-party system has disenfranchised ordinary citizens in recent decades.

Mutual obligation was extended to other recipients of government benefits, such as parents and those receiving disability pensions.

Then came “income management”, in which the government started quarantining payments to Indigenous Australians. Then income management was extended to jobseekers.

At every stage, as the government introduced ever more intrusive controls and conditions on welfare payments, the rhetoric has always been contractual.

If you want you taxpayers’ money, the politicians tell us, you’ll have to meet our conditions.

As the University of New South Wales’ Myra Hamilton has shown, the metaphor is about shifting the risk of unemployment and misfortune away from the state, and onto the individual.

Assistant Employment Minister Luke Hartsuyker was trotting the tired old metaphor out today. “It's not unreasonable to expect job seekers to be out there looking for work, every working day.”

You can see what he’s hinting at here: jobseekers are dole bludgers. They should be out there looking for work, every day.

The framing device of a contract allows politicians to paint welfare recipients as victims of their own behaviour: of laziness, or lack of initiative, or a desire to rort.

And that’s where the contract metaphor breaks down. As anyone who’s ever sat in a Centrelink will realise, welfare payments are not contracts in any normal sense of the word.

Welfare is a payment from a government to its citizens, not a contract in the marketplace, freely negotiated between two parties.

The government is not bound to keep its side of the bargain. It can change the welfare rules whenever it likes.

This happens all the time. When Julia Gillard kicked approximately 80,000 sole parents off their parenting payment and onto unemployment benefits – a much lower payment rate – she justified it with the language of getting more women into the workforce.

Gillard argued that the lower payment was an incentive for sole parents to go out and find work.

But the parenting payment wasn’t originally intended to support jobseekers. It was created to support parents to look after their kids.

And thus, with essentially no consultation, tens of thousands of Australian citizens were told the government would pay them $150 less a month. Some contract.

Try telling your bank or your landlord that you’re going to pay $150 less on next month’s rent or mortgage, and see how far you get.

Nowadays the very term “mutual obligation” is an oxymoron. It’s pretty much just obligation, plain and simple.

The farce reached its low point in the May budget, when Joe Hockey and Mathias Cormann announced that jobseekers under 30 would get no unemployment benefit at all for six months. But they’d still have to fulfill their obligations. Not much mutuality there.

And still the drumbeat of obligation beats on. We’re reaching the point where nearly everyone who receives a government payment will be enmeshed in the netherworld of mutual obligation.

It’s all a giant lie. Can anyone seriously apply, in a meaningful way, for 40 jobs a month?

The small business lobby is already complaining about the avalanche of meaningless resumes that flood the inboxes of small businesses.

The arbitrary nature of the target tells you all you need to know: it’s not about helping jobseekers to look for work. Rather, it’s about punishing them with meaningless paperwork to justify their mendicant status.

When looking for work, most recruitment specialists advise you to take the opposite approach: focus on a few jobs that you are well suited for, and put all your energies into landing one.

The real welfare rorters are elsewhere: in the vast system of job service providers that manage and control the armies of jobseekers.

At any one time, between 700,000 and 800,000 Australians are enrolled. The revenue for job service providers comes almost entirely from the taxpayer.

And there’s a lot of it: more than $5 billion from the Commonwealth in the next three years.

What do job service providers do for their taxpayers money? Some of them do nothing at all.

A 2012 investigation found anomalies of as much as $106 million in fraudulent claims.

Despite all the money spent, there is little real evidence that tougher mutual obligation rules, or the jobs services industry in general, actually helps lower the unemployment rate.

A 2004 study by Melbourne University economists Jeff Borland and Yi-Ping Tseng found that work for the dole actually hindered job seekers seeking employment.

Economists generally agree that what drives employment is economic growth. One of the most famous graphs in economics is the Beveridge Curve, which simply says that unemployment decreases as job vacancies increase.

Buried deep inside the latest audit of the job services system by the Australian National Audit Office is a devastating assessment of the entire work for the dole policy.

“The department has not assessed the contribution of the expenditure on Job Services Australia in achieving the desired program outcomes,” the Audit Office states.

The main reason? Because every jobseeker has to be in the system to get their payment, there is no control group against which to compare.

That’s not stopping the Abbott government. It’s not even waiting for the results of its own work for the dole trials, announced earlier this year."
https://newmatilda.com/2014/07/28/work- ... -never-has


This is the study..by Jeff Borland add Yi-Ping Tseng..
http://cf.fbe.unimelb.edu.au/staff/jib/ ... /wfdwp.pdf




This is from the Sydney Morning Herald.
JUST 42 per cent of job-finding fees claimed by employment agencies were found to be genuine in a top-level audit released yesterday of the $4.7 billion welfare-to-work program.

As a result, some Job Services Australia providers - private firms and charities contracted by the government to help the unemployed find work - face the prospect of a fraud investigation.

The inquiry suggests the job-assistance industry improperly lodged as much as $106 million worth of false claims from the taxpayer in the past two years. Of this, $25.3 million was the extra loading designed to encourage agencies to source jobs themselves for their clients.

The audit reveals that in one case 77 per cent of job brokerage fees claimed by a provider were false or could not be verified.

But the government has refused to name the organisation along with the other nine providers who were targeted for the audit, citing commercial-in-confidence restrictions.

The audit, overseen by former public servant Robert Butterworth, ''found a significant incidence of poor administration, claims that could not be confirmed, claims that were not supported by appropriate evidence, and claims that were contradicted by job seekers or employers''.

''Although providers in the audit were selected because they had a higher … claiming rate, it is almost certain that other providers who were not audited will have similar patterns of behaviour, though perhaps on a smaller scale.''

The Butterworth review examined only ''provider brokered outcomes'' - the fee paid when an employment agency actually finds a job for a Centrelink recipient, as opposed to just assisting that person. But there are 162 other kinds of fees that have been claimed by providers under the scheme.

Last month, the Employment Participation Minister, Kate Ellis, announced changes that her office said would reduce the number of fees available by almost half, and yesterday committed to implementing the nine recommendations made by the inquiry.

One of these recommendations is that the government investigate ''other areas of vulnerability'' within the program.

Insiders say the exploitation of a suite of loopholes has become a core part of the business of many organisations working within the program.

The Herald has seen evidence concerning the rorting of the scheme's Employment Pathways Fund, which is meant to pay for things like new clothing or training for job seekers to help them become work-ready, as well as wage subsidies paid to employers.

Indeed, the audit released yesterday made a reference to such problems, adding that ''funds used from the Employment Pathway Fund will be recovered where expenditure was related to invalid brokering service elements''.

All firms contracted to the scheme will now have to verify claims they have lodged since last July. The government will only try to recover from each provider the incentive loading rather than the entire brokerage fee.

The audit used a sample of 14 providers and assessed 5 per cent of brokerage fees claimed in a six-month period last year.

''In a small number of instances,'' the report said, ''job seeker perspectives gave rise to concerns about provider behaviour that warrant further investigation.

''In addition to recovery and potential administrative action, these cases will be referred to the department's investigations area under the current fraud framework.''

The agencies' claims in these cases appeared ''to indicate an intention to create the basis for a false claim''.

Got a tip? investigations@smh.com.au

twitter Follow the National Times on Twitter: @NationalTimesAUS
Last edited by anarchist23 on 26 Dec 2014 11:28, edited 3 times in total.
#14502947
If past history is anything to go by then there is little hope for the planned sceme. What is required is real jobs not Micky Mouse jobs..
User avatar
By Rejn
#14502950
So are you then saying that the planned scheme is no different from the current scheme? That there is no need for anyone to be cheering or outraged because the result will be the same?
#14502962
Thatcher had a similar "work for dole" and I knew of a few who were put on it and it had no positive affects...if anything the Micky Mouse jobs discouraged a work ethic.

This sceme will cost a lot of money and the results will not justify this outlay..this has been the experience in the UK and Australian work for dole schemes. No one will benifit (except for the scheme providers) and the waste to the taxpayer wil not be applauded.

I believe that rural and isolated communities are to be abandoned by the government and restricting the dole is a way of encouraging people to move to the townships for work.

It says the continuous work for the dole for all 18- to 49-year-olds, is being introduced only in remote Australia, because in those areas there are “limited or no real labour markets, as well as unique social problems that stem from passive welfare. These social problems stem from idleness and are making communities unsafe and dysfunctional.

“We need to set expectations in remote communities that build the same behaviours and norms of workers in ordinary Australian workplaces.”
By layman
#14502991
I actually agree. Work program's are a waste of time and resources. I would gut the whole social security and pension system and replace it with a negative income tax, minimum income.
User avatar
By Rejn
#14503134
I see Anarchist23 ignored my questions.

layman wrote:I actually agree. Work program's are a waste of time and resources. I would gut the whole social security and pension system and replace it with a negative income tax, minimum income.

Layman, at the moment millions of Australians don't have to lodge tax returns because they fall under the tax free threshold. If you introduce a negative income tax, everyone in the country will be lodging tax returns, which will become an administrative nightmare for the very incompetent tax office. It will also further bloat the tax accounting/preparation industry, which is currently on the decline, and rightly so. An economy that doesn't have to deal with so much compliance is a healthier economy.

We should be moving away from income tax altogether. It's a pain to regulate, it's too complex, and there's too much fraud going on - and I say this as someone who prepares tax returns as part of my job.

The pension system needs to be scrapped definitely. Super will replace age pension eventually, and I personally see no need for disability pension.

I've already said this before, but my ideal for the unemployed is to have a regimented dormitory system, where they have communal living with strict itineraries revolving around domestic work and job interviews.
By layman
#14503140
In the uk we do not need to do tax returns unless we are self employed. The employer handles everything.

I personally support only personal income tax and a consumption tax, that's it. Nothing else.

Obviously reforms like this would be massive and need a long transition time. In the end they would be untimetly more efficient and transparent, difficult to bypass etc.

I do not support your work camp/ poor house ideas unless that persona had committed a crime. My ideas would actually involve direct cash payments to th unemployed with basically no obligation. In cash terms they would generally gt more than they do now but state services would be far more limited.
User avatar
By Rejn
#14503182
layman wrote:In the uk we do not need to do tax returns unless we are self employed. The employer handles everything.

How does that work then? Does your employer know how much interest/dividend income you receive or if you have investment properties? And then if you have non-employment income, what about expenses? How are those claimed?

And the fact that you don't do it yourself doesn't mean that compliance costs don't exist. They're merely passed to the employer.

layman wrote:I personally support only personal income tax and a consumption tax, that's it. Nothing else.

I think land tax is the best way to go. You have this much land in a certain location, government tells you to pay $X - no ifs no buts. Income tax and VAT both have the problem of people claiming expenses that don't exist, or claiming personal expenses as business expenses.
User avatar
By Swagman
#14504847
Old_Hat wrote:These proposals do not benefit the unemployed in the slightest.


Absolutely, why work for something when you can do nothing and get paid for it?

A bit like those tax payers working and getting 1/3 of their pay stolen by the ochlocratic govt to handout to those on the dole to do nothing? Makes perfect nonsense to me...

Those taxpayers work I/3 of their time for nothing. They are in effect permanent part time slaves to the mob.

: The comparison to Charlottesville The peo[…]

The one drop rule was never used for Indigenous pe[…]

Israel-Palestinian War 2023

As long as we agree that the IDF and Israeli gover[…]

@Deutschmania Not if the 70% are American and[…]