[Azure Angel]

(oh and the quran says to stone both of them)

And you believe this to be normal punishment for adultery?

Do you support this law?

I do not support stoning women, as for you mercy talk, I fail to see mercy in punishments that are being carried out in the MENA region.

[Dagoth Ur]

And you believe this to be normal punishment for adultery?

No I do not. However I believe a stoning of the offenders is greatly preferable, if still crude, to whole families being wiped out over honor (as was the custom in pagan Arabia).

Personally I see no reason to punish adulters when we have so many real criminals about.

I do not support stoning women, as for you mercy talk, I fail to see mercy in punishments that are being carried out in the MENA region.

Of course you don't. Asia in general is not known for leniency regarding criminals (how merciful is South East Asia to drug traffikers?). Now show me the group of western muslims that stones women and we can talk about universal muslim traits.

Ultimately you are making a completely idealist argument. Whereby the Idea of Islam is so powerful that it can convert normal humans into maniac killing machines with a burning hate for the West. When in reality when you compare ever muslim people to their regional neighbors, these neighbors violate liberal sensibilities just as much and in often the same way. Honor Culture as it is known today is practiced by Sikhs the most and by Muslims near Sikhs second most. Until the advent of Salafism and its Ruralist Pol-Pot style mentality this kindnof shit had been largely eradicated in the muslim world.

[Azure Angel]

Fair enough, you make some good points.

Would you be so kind and explain this, I am curious.

Idea of Islam

[Dagoth Ur]

I mean you make Islam itself into a Force. Like as though it has power outside of its component members and their particular backgrounds/current. To say it another way you are acting as though Muslims are how they are because of Islam, rather than the much more reasonable premise that Islam is how it is because of who muslims are.

[Azure Angel]

I mean you make Islam itself into a Force. Like as though it has power outside of its component members and their particular backgrounds/current. To say it another way you are acting as though Muslims are how they are because of Islam, rather than the much more reasonable premise that Islam is how it is because of who muslims are.

Were you born to Muslim family, Dagoth Ur or did you convert to Islam?

If you converted to Islam, what attracted you to this religion if that is not too personal thing to ask on forum?

[GandalfTheGrey]

It is written law in Noble Quran that women should be stoned for adultery, is it not?

No it is not.

I can see you have a long way to go in understanding basic Islam.

[GandalfTheGrey]

The Quran also says to he merciful. (oh and the quran says to stone both of them)

Do you support this law?

You can call it cherry-picking, I call it having modern eyes.

There is no stoning in the Quran Dagoth - period.

[Dagoth Ur]

Stoning = Put to death. It didn't proscribe a method no.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Nor does the Quran proscribe death for adultery.

The Quranic punishment is flogging or house arrest.

[Political Interest]

It is true that the Qu'ran itself does not mandate any of those punishments but they do exist within Shari'Ah law. I think you will find that all four madhabs agree that such punishments are applicable.

As you are well aware, the Qu'ran is not the only text from which Islamic law is derived. The Hadiths play an equal part in Islamic jurisprudence.

[GandalfTheGrey]

As you are well aware, the Qu'ran is not the only text from which Islamic law is derived. The Hadiths play an equal part in Islamic jurisprudence.

Complete codswalap as far as I'm concerned.

In Islam the only divine revelation is in the Quran. You're not going to tell me that a heap of 200 year old chinese whispers (the ahadith were passed down orally for over 200 years before they were ever written down) - the vast majority of which are *KNOWN* to be fakes - hold equal authority to that divine revelation.

And I don't blame you specifically PI - it is true that this is a mainstream Islamic view, which is a travesty as far as I'm concerned. Muslims, for some idiotic reason, have some pathological need to seek out and blindly follow "Islamic" laws that govern every minute aspect of their life - which *COMPLETELY* misses the main theme of the Quran, which is to have some flexibility and interpretation over what Islamic law is - and actually use your intellect (the Quran is literally full of invocations to think for yourself).

And another thing - even if the ahadith about The Prophet's rulings can be proven to be authentic, why must it be automatically be considered as somehow "divine" law for all places and time? If say Muhammad had someone put to death for adultery - thats his perogative as ruler of a very particular community in a very particular place and time. I don't recall seeing anywhere in his rulings, or statements in the Quran that states that his rulings were applicable to every muslim community for all time. Obviously, as an earthly ruler in a particular place and time he had to make decisions that suited the circumstances that he found himself in. Its beyond absurd to rigidly insist that this must be applied to every muslim state's law anywhere in the world, at any place in time.

There may be a place for the sunna, but only where it compliments the overriding law and mood of the Quran.

[Rich]

In Islam the only divine revelation is in the Quran.

Who says? It doesn't say that in the Koran. Did you get that idea from a Hadith? It is also not one of the five pillars of Sunni Islam. It is not one of the five principles of Shia Islam nor is it one of the seven pillars of Ismailis Islam.

[Political Interest]

Complete codswalap as far as I'm concerned.

Most of the qualified Islamic scholars and experts would disagree with you, Gandalf.

The whole intellectual framework around which Shari'Ah was developed has been accepted by general consensus.

I am not being factually incorrect. It is a simple fact that such punishments exist within the penal code of Shari'Ah. It is not Islamophobic or controversial to say this, only factual.

In Islam the only divine revelation is in the Quran. You're not going to tell me that a heap of 200 year old chinese whispers (the ahadith were passed down orally for over 200 years before they were ever written down) - the vast majority of which are *KNOWN* to be fakes - hold equal authority to that divine revelation.

Yes the Qu'ran is the only holy book in Islam. However, it does not the change the fact that Hadith are referred to when constructing Shari'Ah or fatwas.

And I don't blame you specifically PI - it is true that this is a mainstream Islamic view, which is a travesty as far as I'm concerned. Muslims, for some idiotic reason, have some pathological need to seek out and blindly follow "Islamic" laws that govern every minute aspect of their life - which *COMPLETELY* misses the main theme of the Quran, which is to have some flexibility and interpretation over what Islamic law is - and actually use your intellect (the Quran is literally full of invocations to think for yourself).

In this respect Islam is similar to Judaism in that both are based on complex systems of religious law.

And another thing - even if the ahadith about The Prophet's rulings can be proven to be authentic, why must it be automatically be considered as somehow "divine" law for all places and time? If say Muhammad had someone put to death for adultery - thats his perogative as ruler of a very particular community in a very particular place and time. I don't recall seeing anywhere in his rulings, or statements in the Quran that states that his rulings were applicable to every muslim community for all time. Obviously, as an earthly ruler in a particular place and time he had to make decisions that suited the circumstances that he found himself in. Its beyond absurd to rigidly insist that this must be applied to every muslim state's law anywhere in the world, at any place in time.

There may be a place for the sunna, but only where it compliments the overriding law and mood of the Quran.

It appears you are seeking to reform the whole established Islamic intellectual framework.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Who says? It doesn't say that in the Koran. Did you get that idea from a Hadith? It is also not one of the five pillars of Sunni Islam. It is not one of the five principles of Shia Islam nor is it one of the seven pillars of Ismailis Islam.

The Quran is the bedrock of Islam. If the divine nature of the Quran isn't an accepted a priori assumption for muslims, then Islam literally has no meaning. Also you have it the wrong way around - its not the 5 pillars that the Islamic religion stems from, its the Quran. The Quran is the basis of the 5 pillars - not the other way around.

I am not being factually incorrect.

Actually I think you are when you state that the ahadith hold equal authority to the Quran when deciding The Sharia. There probably are scholars who argue that they are, but since you are talking about consensus as the measure of "truth" in Islam, then I don't think there's much doubt that the consensus is that The Quran holds far more authority than the ahadith.

And yes, I am acutely aware that I am in the minority on these things. It doesn't mean that I'm not coming from a position of sound logic and rationality - compared to the consensus of scholars. Being mainstream doesn't always mean most accurate or most truthful. There have been plenty of times throughout history when mainstream scholarship has been wrong - laughably so. The sun revolving around the earth is one that jumps to mind. Especially on cultural/religious matters, "mainstream" is all too often a function of prevailing customs, cultures and prejudices.

I am actually pretty confident that sometime in the future the 'mainstream' muslims will have a radically different view of Islamic law than they do today.

[Political Interest]

Actually I think you are when you state that the ahadith hold equal authority to the Quran when deciding The Sharia. There probably are scholars who argue that they are, but since you are talking about consensus as the measure of "truth" in Islam, then I don't think there's much doubt that the consensus is that The Quran holds far more authority than the ahadith.

I am not denying that the Qu'ran holds the highest authority in Shari'Ah. However you cannot discount the fact that Hadith also play a major part in Islamic jurisprudence.

And yes, I am acutely aware that I am in the minority on these things. It doesn't mean that I'm not coming from a position of sound logic and rationality - compared to the consensus of scholars. Being mainstream doesn't always mean most accurate or most truthful. There have been plenty of times throughout history when mainstream scholarship has been wrong - laughably so. The sun revolving around the earth is one that jumps to mind. Especially on cultural/religious matters, "mainstream" is all too often a function of prevailing customs, cultures and prejudices.

I am actually pretty confident that sometime in the future the 'mainstream' muslims will have a radically different view of Islamic law than they do today.

Your opinion is still unorthodox. All I am saying is that orthodox Islamic law is based around Hadith, Qiyas, Qu'ran and Ijma.

[GandalfTheGrey]

I am not denying that the Qu'ran holds the highest authority in Shari'Ah.

Well not to be pedantic, but you pretty much did:

The Hadiths play an equal part in Islamic jurisprudence.

[Rich]

The Quran is the bedrock of Islam. If the divine nature of the Quran isn't an accepted a priori assumption for muslims, then Islam literally has no meaning. Also you have it the wrong way around - its not the 5 pillars that the Islamic religion stems from, its the Quran. The Quran is the basis of the 5 pillars - not the other way around.

If you are a truly pious Muslim then this is has a little bit of interest. If you are part of a current of thought, a movement, then it would be more interesting. If you are not a practising Muslim, or you are just an occasional Muslim then this is just idle, wishful thinking. But what ever, what you are proposing is a new religion distinct from both Shia Islam and Sunni Islam. You reject both the Imams and the Sunnah.