[Pants-of-dog]

You need to support that. Assertions are not the same thing as evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people may derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology

Ideology, in the Althusserian sense, is "the imaginary relation to the real conditions of existence." It can be described as a set of conscious and unconscious ideas which make up one's goals, expectations, and motivations. An ideology is a comprehensive normative vision, meaning that it is a set of standards that are followed by people, government, and/or other groups that is considered the "norm"; a way of looking at things, as argued in several philosophical tendencies (see political ideologies). It can also be a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of society to all members of society (a "received consciousness" or product of socialization[further explanation needed], as suggested in some Marxist and Critical theory accounts. While the concept of "ideology" describes a set of ideas broad in its normative reach, an ideology is less encompassing than as expressed in concepts such as worldview, imaginary and ontology.

Ideology refers to the system of abstracted meaning applied to public matters, thus making this concept central to politics. Implicitly, in societies that distinguish between public and private life, every political or economic tendency entails ideology, whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought.

Let me know if you still cannot understand the difference between them.

[Decky]

A religious that argues it's rules should be the law of the state is an ideology like any other trying bring a certain system of laws into being. It is blindingly obvious.

[Pants-of-dog]

A religious that argues it's rules should be the law of the state is an ideology like any other trying bring a certain system of laws into being. It is blindingly obvious.

And since we were discussing how most people continue to believe the things they were taught as kids through to adulthood, and not the minority of people who want to impose this on others, it is not obvious at all how your comment relates to the discussion.

I will point out the important difference:

Ideology is necessarily a socially normative belief, while religion is not necessarily so.

[Decky]

Why do you so want to pack working class ares in the west with people who want to kill and injure working class women and gays by the way?

[Pants-of-dog]

Why do you so want to pack working class areas in the west with people who want to kill and injure working class women and gays by the way?

Why do you think I believe that?

Why don't you, instead, believe that I simply want people to stop treating Muslims with bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice?

[Decky]

Why do you think I believe that?

You advocate political position that would make it inevitable.

So you must either want it to happen or be stupid and for all your many other flaws I don't think you are stupid. QED

[Pants-of-dog]

You advocate political position that would make it inevitable.

Please explain how stopping anti-Muslim bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice will inevitably lead to packing working class areas in the west with people who want to kill and injure working class women and gays. Thank you.

[Decky]

You label people who want to stop working class areas being stuffed with Muslim immigrants racist or bigoted etc in order to smear them when really the only aversion they have is to right wing people.

[Pants-of-dog]

You label people who want to stop working class areas being stuffed with Muslim immigrants racist or bigoted etc in order to smear them when really the only aversion they have is to right wing people.

Actually, I think I only debate anti-Muslim sentiment with right wingers.

Are you suggesting Rei Murasame, Frollein, Azure Agent, Saeko, and Noob are all leftists who have an aversion to right wing people?

EDIT: Also, I point out when their arguments are bigoted. I do not call them bigots.

[Pants-of-dog]

(edit)

Since religion is not necessarily socially normative, then we can have private religion, where we see religion as a guiding moral light for ourselves or the community of believers, but not for the general public. For example, there are Christians who would never have an abortion or marry someone of the same sex yet support the right of others to do so.

[Decky]

Then they can hardy be described as Christians can they? The Bible is quite clear that gays need a good murdering. That's why am not a fan of the book and think there should be laws to prevent it falling into the hands of impressionable children.

[skinster]

How many Muslamics do you see stoning women and hanging gays around where you live, Decky?

You bloody bigot pig dog man.

[Pants-of-dog]

Then they can hardy be described as Christians can they? The Bible is quite clear that gays need a good murdering. That's why am not a fan of the book and think there should be laws to prevent it falling into the hands of impressionable children.

Your No True Scotsman fallacy does not contradict anything I have said.

Since people like this exist, it is logical to assume that there are Muslims like this. For example, I have a Muslim co-worker who never discusses his religion and has no trouble taking orders from the women in the office. There is no good reason to protest the presence of someone like this.

[Decky]

Things have changed since you left Skinster, did you not see the report on Fox news?

Gays hang from all the lamp posts for most of the 37 bus route and they are doing stonings in that open area by the front of Snow Hill station on every second Tuesday of the month near the old contemplates pub.

[skinster]

So, basically you're being a bigot for nowt. Stop it, please, it's gross to read. We have too many PoFronters for that stuff anyway.

edit: I like The Contemptibles ('The old cunts') though, used to drink there regularly. Recall it having good food too.

[Azure Angel]

Azure Agent

Agent?
Do you know something about me that I myself do not know, PoD?

I understand PoD when he says that Muslims did not choose where they will be born and thus what environment will shape them.

But in reality that makes no difference, if someone is raised in culture where religious law demands and calls for slaughter of gays, stoning of women and countless other things which are righteous according to Islamic sacred texts, and that person immigrates to live in for example Sweden, do you really think he will give up on all his past beliefs, culture and worldview?

Perhaps few of these immigrants will but most will not.

It is solely the law of Sweden then, that acts as barrier against Islamic law being enforced with all its brutal punishments and even that law many times does not stop honor killings, brutal punishments and genital mutilation of girls.

What happens then when Muslim majority in Swedish future demands that Sharia law becomes only law for Sweden?
You will say that we can not know how many of Muslims would want Sharia but I hope you see that when extremists scream and demand things, no matter their ideology or religion, their moderate neighbors stay silent in fear.

The most easy thing for people to do now, is to call me racist and xenophobe or closet Croat fascist.

But I simply believe that if we defeated one fascist ideology such as Nazism, that we should not give chance for Islam to take its place.

[Pants-of-dog]

Agent?
Do you know something about me that I myself do not know, PoD?

I apologise. I should have checked before writing your name incorrectly.

I understand PoD when he says that Muslims did not choose where they will be born and thus what environment will shape them.

But in reality that makes no difference, if someone is raised in culture where religious law demands and calls for slaughter of gays, stoning of women and countless other things which are righteous according to Islamic sacred texts, and that person immigrates to live in for example Sweden, do you really think he will give up on all his past beliefs, culture and worldview?

Perhaps few of these immigrants will but most will not.

You seem to be making two assumptions here:

1. That most Muslims believe that they should kill gays and women.

2. That no immigrants leave their home country because they are at odds with the prevailing cultural norms.

I do not think that these assumptions are correct.

It is solely the law of Sweden then, that acts as barrier against Islamic law being enforced with all its brutal punishments and even that law many times does not stop honor killings, brutal punishments and genital mutilation of girls.

No. It is also possible that Muslims do not kill or mutilate women and gays simply because they think it is wrong.

What happens then when Muslim majority in Swedish future demands that Sharia law becomes only law for Sweden?
You will say that we can not know how many of Muslims would want Sharia but I hope you see that when extremists scream and demand things, no matter their ideology or religion, their moderate neighbors stay silent in fear.

It is highly unrealistic to believe that Sweden will ever have a Muslim majority.

....

But I simply believe that if we defeated one fascist ideology such as Nazism, that we should not give chance for Islam to take its place.

I also oppose fascism, which is why I oppose far-right groups and their Islamophobia.

[Azure Angel]

1. That most Muslims believe that they should kill gays and women.

Not most, PoD, I actually believe that majority of Muslims do not desire such things but extremists are always louder, always more intimidating and can we honestly look upon Islamic countries in world today and say they are good place to be average woman?

Then why are those "most Muslims" not fighting against such laws?

They were born in such environment and thus they are not to held accountable for their actions?

2. That no immigrants leave their home country because they are at odds with the prevailing cultural norms.

Perhaps first generation of immigrants does not agree with culture back home, but we all know that their children usually try to find identity for themselves by going back to roots, back to Islam.

It is highly unrealistic to believe that Sweden will ever have a Muslim majority.

Give it time, it will not happen overnight.

I also oppose fascism, which is why I oppose far-right groups and their Islamophobia.

Far right groups are Islamists too but I always see that liberals prefer attacking Islamophobic groups over Islamists themselves.

[Saeko]

I was discussing theists, not brown people. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify the context.

Your style of argumentation is nothing more than trolling. You continually knockdown strawmen, and dodge the relevant points that others bring up.
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The point I was trying to make was that P-o-D does not believe that Muslims are autonomous human beings. To him, they are nothing more than robots who have been programmed by the world around them to act and believe a certain way, and so it would be pointless to blame them for the bad things they do or believe. His whole argument is that the "anti-muslim bigots" are being mean to his pets, and insists that if they were treated nicely, they wouldn't bite anyone.

If he admitted that Muslims can be held accountable for their actions, then it would be impossible for him to continue his moral crusade.

[Pants-of-dog]

Not most, PoD, I actually believe that majority of Muslims do not desire such things but extremists are always louder, always more intimidating and can we honestly look upon Islamic countries in world today and say they are good place to be average woman?

Then we agree that most Muslim immigrants will not want to kill and mutilate women and gays.

Then why are those "most Muslims" not fighting against such laws? :?:

They were born in such environment and thus they are not to held accountable for their actions?

If you are asking why most people in Muslim majority nations are not working for the equality of gays and women, I would answer that they do so for all the same reasons that most Westerners are not working for the equality of gays and women. Also, they live in developing nations and need to spend that much more time trying to satisfy basic necessities, and then there is also the added fact that many of these nations are dictatorships (thanks USA!) so people are dealing with that as well.

Perhaps first generation of immigrants does not agree with culture back home, but we all know that their children usually try to find identity for themselves by going back to roots, back to Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Sweden#Demography

Such numbers do not imply religious beliefs or participation; Åke Sander claimed in 1992 that at most 40–50% of the people of Muslim background in Sweden "could reasonably be considered to be religious",[11] and in 2004, based on discussions and interviews with Muslim leaders, concerning second-generation Muslims born and raised in Sweden that "it does not seem that the percentage they consider to be religious Muslims in a more qualified sense exceeds fifteen percent, or perhaps even less".[12] Sander re-stated in 2004 that "we do not think it unreasonable to put the figure of religious Muslims in Sweden at the time of writing at close to 150,000".[13] Professor Mohammad Fazlhashemi at Umeå University estimates "a good 100,000".[14] About 25,000 are regarded as devout Muslims, visiting Friday prayers and practising daily prayers.

Apparently, the second generation is noticeably less religious than the preceding generation, at least in Sweden.

Give it time, it will not happen overnight.

It is highly unrealistic to believe that Sweden will ever have a Muslim majority, no matter how much time you wait.

Far right groups are Islamists too but I always see that liberals prefer attacking Islamophobic groups over Islamists themselves.

Do you mean "Far right groups are fascist too"?

I don't bother attacking violent Muslim people and groups. This is for two reasons: 1. There are enough people already doing it, and 2. People who choose to mutilate and kill others due to their beliefs are obviously barbaric and their own actions condemn them far more than my mere words ever could.

--------------------

The point I was trying to make was that P-o-D does not believe that Muslims are autonomous human beings. To him, they are nothing more than robots who have been programmed by the world around them to act and believe a certain way, and so it would be pointless to blame them for the bad things they do or believe. His whole argument is that the "anti-muslim bigots" are being mean to his pets, and insists that if they were treated nicely, they wouldn't bite anyone.

As I said, I was discussing ALL theists.

If you think I am claiming that Muslims lack agency, then you must logically believe I am saying the same about Jews, Christians, and anyone else who was raised in a certain religion.

If he admitted that Muslims can be held accountable for their actions, then it would be impossible for him to continue his moral crusade.

Muslims can be held accountable for their actions, and should be.

This does not change the fact that most adults believe in whatever religion they grew up believing.