[Dr House]

I have to say I prefer you being Dave's colonial domain to your former libertarianism..

I'm no more Dave's colonial domain than you are Karl Marx's. The difference is that I'm the unique position of having adopted an ideology coined by a living person I know personally, rather than some dead guy whose books I read. If Karl Marx posted in this board he'd most likely be indistinguishable from you ar any of the "senior" Marxists here, although doubtlessly he'd be downright embarrassed at the hordes of clueless college Marxists in this board and, particularly, in Soviet Empire.

[Vladimir]

Yeah I'm kidding I think most people make up their mind dependent on what they read written by other people, be it posters on forums or intellectuals writing articles (not much of a conceptual difference anyway, is there). But yeah we all just recite other peoples' stuff mostly

particularly, in Soviet Empire

I fall into depression every time I read a thread in that place..

[Dr House]

I actually authored some of my own philosophy, but then the parts that are "original" are essentially blends of other formulas and theories put forward by other people. My view on class relations is, bizarre as it may sound, a mix of the Marxist and libertarian viewpoints on it.

[Vladimir]

Nah I've been at Pofo long enough to not consider anything bizzare anymore

[Dan]

I propose that insted of giving them a raise, we use that money to hire more teachers to reduce the student-teacher ratio.

I strenuously object to this proposal.

It has been shown time and again that student-teacher ratio has minimal real effect on educational results.

The most cost-effective measure we could implement would be peer-tutoring.

Another effective (and fairly cheap) measure would be to encourage and subsidize home schooling, which has been shown to result in real educational improvements.

Eliminating the teachers' unions so that incompetent teacher's could be replaced easier and to generally improve the competitiveness of the teaching industry would likely have a positive impact on educational outcomes and would reduce the inefficincies teachers' unions create.

Instituting a set of standardized tests for teachers to gain and keep a teaching license (and maybe another set to even be able to enter teaching in university) would make sure that teachers were at least minimally competent.

Streaming (at least for the brightest) would make sure that the most intelligent and productive students (and future citizens) would have the best and most challenging educational experience possible would also be a positive.

But hiring more teacher's would be a waste of money with no results, and so would increasing teachers' pay before we increase the minimum standards for teachers.

[Dr House]

you still havent commented on my idea to just shoot the striking teachers, dan

[Vladimir]

Another effective (and fairly cheap) measure would be to encourage and subsidize home schooling, which has been shown to result in real educational improvements.

Home schooling is undemocratic and unacceptable. It is the nation's business to educate children in accordance to the nation's demands.

Eliminating the teachers' unions so that incompetent teacher's could be replaced easier and to generally improve the competitiveness of the teaching industry would likely have a positive impact on educational outcomes and would reduce the inefficincies teachers' unions create.

That is unacceptable, and incompetent teachers are not to be hired in the first place.

Instituting a set of standardized tests for teachers to gain and keep a teaching license (and maybe another set to even be able to enter teaching in university) would make sure that teachers were at least minimally competent.

Teachers will not be tested after gaining employment by qualification and probation period. A teacher proven to be competent will not suddenly become incompetent.

Streaming (at least for the brightest) would make sure that the most intelligent and productive students (and future citizens) would have the best and most challenging educational experience possible would also be a positive.

What is streaming?

But hiring more teacher's would be a waste of money with no results, and so would increasing teachers' pay before we increase the minimum standards for teachers.

I agree that we shall not hire new teachers, however my reason is that we have more important budget commitments.

[Thunderhawk]

It has been shown time and again that student-teacher ratio has minimal real effect on educational results.

My proposal for reducing student-teacher ratio was about reducing work load on teachers. Marking assignments/tests/etc takes time, usually time at home and on weekends. Its also less work keeping 25 students quiet and learning then it is to keep 30 or 35 students quiet and learning. By reducing the amount of students per teacher it reduces the amount of paperwork and hassel they have to do, which in turn makes teaching more attractive.

The most cost-effective measure we could implement would be peer-tutoring.

Another effective (and fairly cheap) measure would be to encourage and subsidize home schooling, which has been shown to result in real educational improvements.

Eliminating the teachers' unions so that incompetent teacher's could be replaced easier and to generally improve the competitiveness of the teaching industry would likely have a positive impact on educational outcomes and would reduce the inefficincies teachers' unions create.

Instituting a set of standardized tests for teachers to gain and keep a teaching license (and maybe another set to even be able to enter teaching in university) would make sure that teachers were at least minimally competent.

Streaming (at least for the brightest) would make sure that the most intelligent and productive students (and future citizens) would have the best and most challenging educational experience possible would also be a positive.

I agree with all of this.
Though I believe teachers should manage their own pension fund rather then have a civil servent one. If dont by a union like structure Im ok with that.

But hiring more teacher's would be a waste of money with no results, and so would increasing teachers' pay before we increase the minimum standards for teachers.

How will we entice the kind of qualified professional if we set higher standards and dont reward people for meeting those standards?

Teachers will not be tested after gaining employment by qualification and probation period. A teacher proven to be competent will not suddenly become incompetent.

That is unacceptable, and incompetent teachers are not to be hired in the first place.

Teachers are people. People cheat. Often or many? no. But there will be a couple, so its good to have periodic screenings to catch the cheaters.

What is streaming?

Children with abnormal abilities and needs go to classes (educational streams) that can deal with those problems.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

That is unacceptable, and incompetent teachers are not to be hired in the first place.

How can you tell whether not a teacher is incompetent right off the bat? For one thing, the skill of a teacher right off the bat is not necessarily indicative of their later skill, because teaching leaves you jaded and less enthusiastic about your job. It may turn out that a teacher that appears to be skilled at the beginning of their career ends up sucking as they lose hope in their students.

Teachers will not be tested after gaining employment by qualification and probation period. A teacher proven to be competent will not suddenly become incompetent.

This is not necessarily the case. For one thing, teaching methods change wildly over time, and teachers need to be able to cope with that over time, which isn't something you can demonstrate within a brief probationary period. Also, a teacher might take advantage of the protection they're afforded after being granted tenure and start to slack off.

I am actually not opposed to tenure fully, I agree that teachers shouldn't be constantly in fear of their livelihoods. However, there should be a process with which to terminate terrible teachers.

[Dr House]

That is unacceptable, and incompetent teachers are not to be hired in the first place.

Teachers will not be tested after gaining employment by qualification and probation period. A teacher proven to be competent will not suddenly become incompetent.

This is ridiculous. How do you intend to ascertain whether a teacher is perfectly competent before hiring them? And more to the point, why would they remain competent, if they know they can't be fired? Many employees who can't be fired don't bother to do their jobs because they don't have to. In academia many professors are given lifetime tenure, yes, but only after a vetting process that takes years, where they have to prove themselves worthy of it. You won't even allow probationary periods.

I propose this compromise solution:

-Offer state-sponsored arbitration in exchange for the strike being broken up. If the strike is not ended, fire the teachers.
-Going forward, strikes and lockouts are banned. All disputes that cannot be resolved or successfully mediated will be taken to arbitration.
-Teachers with 2 years of tenure will be given two weeks' notice before termination.
-Teachers with 5 years of tenure will be given one month's notice before termination.
-Teachers with 10 years of tenure will be given 3 months' notice before termination.

What is streaming?

"Tracking (also called ability grouping or streaming) is the practice, in education, of placing students into different groups within a school,
based on academic abilities[1]. For years, schools in the United States and United Kingdom have used tracking (called streaming in
United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa) as a way of dividing students into different “tracks” to facilitate learning. Though
the terms “tracking” and “ability grouping” are often used interchangeably, Gamoran (1992) differentiates between the two[2]. He uses the
term “tracking” to describe the manner by which students are separated into groups for all academic subjects, but “ability grouping,” on the
other hand, is the within-class separation of students into groups, based on academic ability. High ability groups are often assigned special
work that is more advanced than that of the other students in the class."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_(education)

[Vladimir]

CM

How can you tell whether not a teacher is incompetent right off the bat? For one thing, the skill of a teacher right off the bat is not necessarily indicative of their later skill, because teaching leaves you jaded and less enthusiastic about your job. It may turn out that a teacher that appears to be skilled at the beginning of their career ends up sucking as they lose hope in their students.

Well I mentioned probation, which can be made quite long. But yes the case you describe may happen; do you have any evidence on the frequency of such cases ? If it is low, it isn't worth considering.

This is not necessarily the case. For one thing, teaching methods change wildly over time, and teachers need to be able to cope with that over time, which isn't something you can demonstrate within a brief probationary period. Also, a teacher might take advantage of the protection they're afforded after being granted tenure and start to slack off.

I am actually not opposed to tenure fully, I agree that teachers shouldn't be constantly in fear of their livelihoods. However, there should be a process with which to terminate terrible teachers.

I wouldn’t agree to total security of employment for teachers, however unionisation does not imply that. Teachers proven incompetent will be fired, the union is there to prevent unjustified lay offs.

House

This is ridiculous. How do you intend to ascertain whether a teacher is perfectly competent before hiring them?

Qualifications, examination, probation, experience?

And more to the point, why would they remain competent, if they know they can't be fired? Many employees who can't be fired don't bother to do their jobs because they don't have to. In academia many professors are given lifetime tenure, yes, but only after a vetting process that takes years, where they have to prove themselves worthy of it. You won't even allow probationary periods.

There shouldn't be a problem in a lay-off or a transfer if a teacher is proven to be incompetent and not improving over time.

-Offer state-sponsored arbitration in exchange for the strike being broken up. If the strike is not ended, fire the teachers.

Agree

-Going forward, strikes and lockouts are banned. All disputes that cannot be resolved or successfully mediated will be taken to arbitration.

Disagree

-Teachers with 2 years of tenure will be given two weeks' notice before termination.
-Teachers with 5 years of tenure will be given one month's notice before termination.
-Teachers with 10 years of tenure will be given 3 months' notice before termination.

Too simplistic.
- evidence of incompetence must be provided by the watchdog committee
- if proven incompetent, to be put on probation:
-Teachers with 2 years of tenure will be given one month probation.
-Teachers with 5 years of tenure will be given two months probation.
-Teachers with 10 years of tenure will be given 6 months probation
-Teachers with over 15 years of tenure will be given a years probation
- if failed probation, to be terminated

Streaming

Unacceptable. There will be no segregation, the aim of state schooling is not to cultivate wunderkinds, in fact the two are incompatible.

[Eauz]

May it revealed to you that the SN-RF government is working towards total unionisation. You, however, are set to be executed for dissent.

Total unionisation? What is that, like everyone will be fighting for better wages against themselves?

Self A: I don't like the working conditions I am working in, I'm going on strike.
Self B: Fine, go on strike, but I'm just going to keep on working and be a scab!

Fail...

The policy is full of idiocy and reactionary goals. Have fun though while I'm dead...

[Vladimir]

Can you tell the difference between a trade union and an employers' association?

[Eauz]

Can you tell the difference between a trade union and an employers' association?

None, they both consist often of employees (and employers) who think they deserve to be paid higher wages than regular employees (and employers).

Petty-Bourgeois philosophy 4 teh win!

[Vladimir]

Employers paid wages? gtfo stop trolling

[Eauz]

Employers paid wages?

No, I mean certain benefits they gain (direct and indirect) from the existence of unions within society.

[Dr House]

Disagree

Why? It prevents disruption, and all disputes end up either being mediated or arbitrated after the workers go on strike anyway. The workers lose their bargaining chip (pay us better or we go on strike), but this can be replaced by coercive state power through arbitration. Perón implemented this policy, quite successfully.

[Vladimir]

No, I mean certain benefits they gain (direct and indirect) from the existence of unions within society.

And workers gaining benefits from union membership is bad how?

Why? It prevents disruption, and all disputes end up either being mediated or arbitrated after the workers go on strike anyway. The workers lose their bargaining chip (pay us better or we go on strike), but this can be replaced by coercive state power through arbitration. Perón implemented this policy, quite successfully.

I don't see how the state would rule in favour of teachers by a iota if they don't have a bargaining ship. Besides, if the dispute is heated enough and the state isn't conceding, a strike would happen anyway. Laws are supposed to recognise reality, they can't determine it.
Also as much as I do respect Peron, it doubt your claim that this was a success. Can you show a source ?

[Dr House]

I don't see how the state would rule in favour of teachers by a iota if they don't have a bargaining ship.

Arbitrators don't give a shit. An arbitrator's job is to hear both sides of the argument and make the fairest decision, which then both parties are bound by law to follow. If either party is not content all they can do is appeal the decision.

Besides, if the dispute is heated enough and the state isn't conceding, a strike would happen anyway.

If they do so illegally they will face criminal penalties. This goes without saying.

[Dan]

Home schooling is undemocratic and unacceptable. It is the nation's business to educate children in accordance to the nation's demands.

How the hells is it undemocratic? What's more democratic then an individual personally voting on what to teach their kid by doing it themselves?

You just want to crank out state indoctrination, which is kinda a piss-poor philosophy for a supposed commie.

That is unacceptable, and incompetent teachers are not to be hired in the first place.

You can't really know their incompetant before they actually work.

Teachers will not be tested after gaining employment by qualification and probation period. A teacher proven to be competent will not suddenly become incompetent.

C'mon, really?

You never had experience with the teacher who didn't give a crap and was just trying to wait out for his pension?

I wouldn’t agree to total security of employment for teachers, however unionisation does not imply that. Teachers proven incompetent will be fired, the union is there to prevent unjustified lay offs.

Are leftists really this disconnected from reality? Unions defend any moron who pays his dues, no matter how incompetent.

Unacceptable. There will be no segregation, the aim of state schooling is not to cultivate wunderkinds, in fact the two are incompatible.

That's exactly the point of education. To get the best as well taught as possible so they can drive the nation's research, policy, and industry, and to get the others taught enough so that they can be productive citizens.