[canadiancapitalist]

That book is only like 30-40 pages long or something, it's a quick read, and a good one. Basically he just names names, showing how powerful banking dynasties have been placing powerful men at the center of various administrations and dictating policy to presidents.

[Dan]

I'll be on as soon as possible to further these discussions.

I'm watching my nephew and can't spend much time on until he falls asleep.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

Dan, care to comment further on this?

[Dan]

I just finished the election stuff, so I'll comment now.

First, we do not actually have the numbers for a majority coalition:

Code: Select allBlack and blue       46    (POP, PNL, CA, LC, PUC (all))

We would have to get at least 5 seats to defect from either the SLD or the THP to form a majority.

Second, we still haven't heard anything from the PUC, and if we don't have the PUC we've only got 30 something seats.

On the other hand, if we got the PUC on board we could get a firm minority government as the SLD won't cooperate with the SN-RF bloc, but we would be vulnerable to being defeated, if the other parties all disagreed with our bills.

I'll scrap the space program and nuclear weapons (the new details of our nation seem to be forming that into something unworkable).

I'll up the tax free to $20,000. This system is progressive, to a degree.

What do you suggest PoFoland can do to increase its energy independence? If its deregulation of its domestic energy industry like allowing offshore drilling, then that's good. If it's subsidies for ethanol, that's going to be wasteful and expensive.

It would be investment in technology, deregulation, nuclear power, hydro-power, and such things. It would not include ethanol.

Change deported to deported, punished, and barred from reentry.

Ok with me.

I think employment insurance should be scrapped in favor of forced savings.

I'll remove the method, and just put in that it should be provided for.

I'll do something similar for health care; it will include government-subsidized universal access and private delivery.

Marijuana should be legalized and hard drugs should be nationalized. The point of any decriminalization/legalization effort should be to reduce the funding of drug cartels. This can't be accomplished by simple reduction of prison sentences.

Marijuana is legalized. As for hard drugs, I'm going to remove it from the compromise. It can be a free vote.

Same with marriage. Free vote.

Monetary policy will be free vote.

Private Property: The coalition generally supports private property as a fundamental right of all individuals.

This sounds like a good compromise.

Absolutely not. The PNL prefers a tax on singles over a subsidy of marriage.

It's not a subsidy, it's a tax reduction.

So following this, here's what we got.

The Right Coalition Agenda

Purpose: The coalition exists to create a united moderately conservative government to pursue the greater glory of PoFoland, her national interest, and her citizens.

Free Votes: The coalition recognizes the diverse interests of the parties within the coalition and if a policy comes for a vote before the parliament in which the national interest of PoFoland is not at risk, in which the divergent interests of the parties within the coalition are at odds, and in which the left does not pose a significant threat of hijacking the bill for nefarious leftist purposes, the coalition shall declare the vote a free vote so that the government can remain stable while individual parties and members vote according to their consciences. For items agreed to on the agenda, coalition voting discipline will be expected.

Meritocracy: The overriding economic and social belief of the coalition is that society should be meritocratic. If citizens contribute to society they should be rewarded, if they do not they should not be rewarded, and if they actively harm society, they should be punished.

Foreign Policy

Armed Non-interventionism: The guiding principal of the foreign policy of the coalition government will be armed non-interventionism. The coalition will support a strong national defence force to protect our interests and deter offensive actions from others. The coalition will intervene only when our own national interest is at stake.

Foreign Entanglements: The coalition will not sacrifice the national sovereignty and national interest of PoFoland to the international community. We will remain free from commitments to the UN or other international organizations. We shall pursue bilateral and multilateral treaties only in the national interest and only if our soveriegnty remains intact.

Military Policy: The coalition will seek the national rearmament of PoFoland. We shall invest in researching cutting edge weapon systems and military doctrines. We will expand our military power on land, sea, air, and space. We will pursue a defensive nuclear force to deter aggression.

Free Trade: The coalition is generally in favour of international free trade as the best means of economic growth providing that it does not impinge on our national sovereignty. We may engage in protectionism in the national interest. We eschew the provision of foreign aid.

Citizenship Policy

Citizenship: The coalition supports the corresponding rights and duties of citizenship. We advocate that citizens must undergo a period of national service to receive the full benefits of citizenship. Citizens not having completed a period of national service will have some political and gun freedoms limited. All persons born to citizens within the territory of the country automatically receive citizenship, all minors living within the country whose parents are citizens shall automatically receive citizenship, and all legal immigrants shall have a period of 3 years to gain partial citizenship.

Immigration: The coalition supports and immigration policy based around the national interest. Potential immigrants shall be judged on a points system based on characteristics like education, employment history, vocational skills, physical health, family that are already citizens, language abilities, acceptance of national values, criminal history, and civic knowledge, and will have to meet the minimum necessary point threshold (which will be fairly high) to gain immigrant status. Immigrants shall have 3 years upon gaining immigrant status to gain citizenship; if they have not gained it by this point, they shall be deported. Immigrants can gain citizenship by reaching proficiency in the official language, having steady employment, successfully completing the requisite number of civics courses, and having no criminal record. Any immigrant convicted of a felony will be immediately deported. Immigration will be restricted to a certain level each year set according to the needs of the country and the points system shall be changed as necessary to reflect the needs of society. A law shall be emplaced to restrict yearly immigration to a maximum of 2% of the population and if foreign-born exceed 15% of the national population immigration will be reduced.

Illegal Immigration: The coalition is strongly opposed to illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal immigrants. All illegal immigrants will be summarily deported, punished, and barred from reentry.

Economic Policy

Private Property: The coalition generally supports private property as a fundamental right of all individuals.

Debt & Deficits: The coalition believes strongly in fiscal responsibility and will make paying off the national debt a national priority. The coalition will introduce legislation to prevent deficit spending excepting in cases of national crisis with a supra-majority of the Parliament.

Energy: The coalition will pursue energy independence as a national interest priority. PoFoland must no be beholden to foreign energy sources.

Technology: The coalition will pursue technological innovation to maintain a leading technological edge.

Taxes: The federal government will set a flat income tax rate, with the first $20,000 (inflation-adjusted each year) earned per individual being tax free.

Environmental Policy: The coalition will pursue technological innovation in the area of clean, renewable energy. The coalition will pursue the conservation of the environment and resources for future generations. The coalition will not support Kyoto or other treaties of environmental internationalism.

Employment Insurance: Productive citizens who lose their employment will be provided temporary assistance allowing them to maintain their lifestyle while they find productive employment.

Welfare: Once an individual has used up his temporary benefits they will be allowed to enter the national welfare system. The individual shall work full-time on national projects in his local area, as the government sees fit, and shall receive welfare payments for this. This program will be designed to encourage and help the receivers to find employment.

Social Policy

Self-Defence: The coalition believes all individuals have the freedom of self-defence and support the castle doctrine, whereby a citizen's home is his castle and he shall be allowed to defend it by whatever means necessary. A person in a public area may use force proportional to a threat to defend themselves and others without facing legal consequences.

Gun Freedoms: The coalition is supportive of the freedom of citizens to own firearms.

Pro-natalism: The coalition is strongly in favour of a pro-natalist policy. All families having a child will be relieved of income taxes (on up to $100,000) for a period of a year following the child's birth. Following that initial period all families will receive a tax credit of $300 per month per child.

Education: The government supports a voucher system for parents to spend on the education for their child of their choice. All education will require a mandatory series of civic's courses to teach children national history and the rights and duties of citizenship.

Civil Law: The government will introduce a loser pays law for civil cases to prevent frivolous lawsuits. Any individual who starts a civil suit and loses will be required to pay the court costs of the winner (within certain reasonable limits).

Crime: The coalition will be tough on crime. We will institute a three-strikes law for certain violent crimes (rape, murder, armed robbery, assault, child molestation). We will institute the death penalty for particularily heinous crimes. We will institute a system of restitution for some non-violent and property crimes.

Health Care: The coalition supports publicly-subsidized universal access with private delivery.

Narcotics: Marijuana will be legalized.

Now we can discuss over this. If we come to something the right can agree on, we can present it the PUC and SLD and shoot for a majority, or just to the PUC and shoot for a strong minority.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

I'll up the tax free to $20,000. This system is progressive, to a degree.

What happened to the progressive system? It still says flat tax.

[Dan]

What happened to the progressive system? It still says flat tax.

It is progressive, to a degree.

The effective income tax rate of someone making under $20k is 0%.

The effective income tax rate of someone making $30k is about a third that of someone making $1,000k.

The effective income tax rate of someone making $40k is about half that of someone making $1,000k.

And so on.

It is progressive in that it leaves the poorest with very low effective tax rates.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

It's not a subsidy, it's a tax reduction.

Tax reduction, subsidy, you're splitting hairs here. It's better to take in more revenues by taxing negative behavior (being single, especially when kids are involved) than to lose revenue by rewarding good behavior.

It is progressive, to a degree.

So then what exactly is the tax code?

[Dan]

Tax reduction, subsidy, you're splitting hairs here. It's better to take in more revenues by taxing negative behavior (being single, especially when kids are involved) than to lose revenue by rewarding good behavior.

We are not actually going to gain or lose revenues as the tax system has not been set yet.

So then what exactly is the tax code?

A flat rate, but everybody has a certain amount of income ($20,000) each year that is tax free.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

A flat rate, but everybody has a certain amount of income ($20,000) each year that is tax free.

I disagree with a flat tax. The poor has to put in more under a flat tax scheme than they would under a progressive tax scheme, and the rich would have to put in less. Everyone might be putting in the same portion of their income, but obviously the poor derive more marginal utility from every dollar that they have than the rich, so the scheme hardly seems equitable.

EDIT: By the way I don't feel I can budge on this, and I think it's a small concession to make seeing as we'd tie for largest party in a conservative coalition.

[Dan]

I disagree with a flat tax. The poor has to put in more under a flat tax scheme than they would under a progressive tax scheme, and the rich would have to put in less. Everyone might be putting in the same portion of their income, but obviously the poor derive more marginal utility from every dollar that they have than the rich, so the scheme hardly seems equitable.

But given that certain levels of income is tax free, the effective tax rate for the poor is very low. For example, anybody making under $20,000 pays no tax at all.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

But given that certain levels of income is tax free, the effective tax rate for the poor is very low. For example, anybody making under $20,000 pays no tax at all.

The point of a progressive tax scheme is not only to keep taxes low on the poor, but also on the middle class and lower middle class. Consider someone making 30,000. And lets say that the flat tax is 30%. Under your tax scheme, they would be making 27,000 after taxes. In a progressive tax scheme they would be making 29,300. 2,300 extra dollars per year is hardly trivial for someone making 30,000.

[RonPaulalways]

Dan your proposal looks good to me.

Dave, thanks for the link, I'll read it later.

Cheese, the middle class would still have a far lower effective tax rate if the first $20,000 is tax free. If they make $40,000, they'd only be taxed for $20,000 of their income, which is equivalent to them having a tax rate about half of a super rich (e.g. $1,000K+) individual.

[Dan]

In a progressive tax scheme they would be making 29,300.

False. That would be a tax rate of about 2%, which does not exist under any tax system.

Consider someone making 30,000. And lets say that the flat tax is 30%. Under your tax scheme, they would be making 27,000 after taxes. In a progressive tax scheme they would be making 29,300. 2,300 extra dollars per year is hardly trivial for someone making 30,000.

For someone making $30,000 my plan would be an effective tax rate of 10% (if the flat tax is 30%), which is actually less then most progressive tax systems would have for someone earning $30,000 a year.

For example, in Canada the income tax rate of someone making $30,000 is 15%.

My plan works because it is generous to the poor and middle-class, it is fair, it is simple, and it is somewhat progressive while not being insane.

[RonPaulalways]

^ And it would save loads on tax preparation due to its simplicity.

The US economy spends $265 billion a year on tax preparation/planning, which is equivalent to 2% of GDP, and this is due mostly to the complexity of the tax code.

[Dr House]

I disagree with a flat tax as well, due to the fact that you can collect more revenue at a much lower utility cost with a progressive income tax. If you get a guy making a million dollars a year and one making $20k a year, you make the same revenue taxing each at a 10% rate as you would not taxing the poor guy, then taxing the millionaire at a 10.2% rate.

RPA, a progressive income tax doesn't have to be complex. Our tax scheme excludes investment and nothing else from taxation. You could fill your return in the back of a postcard.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

This is the tax system that Dave proposed, along with his corresponding argument for it:

1% on income between $0 and $20,000
3% on income between $20,000 and $40,000
5% on income between $40,000 and $75,000
10% on income between $75,000 and $125,000
15% on income between $125,000 and $200,000
25% on income between $200,000 and $500,000
33% on income between $500,000 and $1,000,000
39% on income between $1,000,000 and $10,000,000
44% on income over $10,000,000

In the past, a freeman was someone who owned his own labor. We should adopt a long-term goal of eliminating the personal income tax if possible. At the very least, we should be committed to reducing its burden. Lower income tax rates make it easier for upstarts to challenge the already wealthy, which is good for class mobility and reducing the capture of the political system by old money.

[Dan]

There's no way I could get the LC to agree to that (or even my own party) I'm pretty sure.

If we're going to do this we need to compromise, and my suggestion is a decent compromise between the progressives tax system and a flat rate.

[Falx]

I'm just a bit curious how does this fit into the centre right negotiation?
viewtopic.php?p=1872738#p1872738

Would the SN-RF support cooperation with the "far right" against the centre on issues like gun control?

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

All the parties in this coalition support loosening gun control. It hardly matters if we also work with the SN-RF to get an anti-gun control bill passed.

[Falx]

Oh really? I guess the SLD platform has changed even more than I thought it had, not least because they deal with communists now.