[ingliz]

Gnote:

Defect and bring the honest social democrats with you and then see how quickly your Party jumps into bed with the fascists, I dare you.

[Gnote]

Defect and bring the honest social democrats with you and then see how quickly your Party jumps into bed with the fascists, I dare you.

You're not answering my questions.

The fact of the matter is that you had a chance to exert some influence on the direction of the country by forming a coalition with those sympathetic to your cause. You would certainly not have achieved your wildest dreams, but you also wouldn't have set the class struggle back hundreds of years.

The right-wing coalition that is upon us is a direct result of your failure to cooperate. And workers will suffer in turn.

I have no interest in defecting to a party that has no interest in improving the lives of everyday people.

[ingliz]

sympathetic to your cause.

Sympathetic my arse, read the grand coalition of the right and you will see your party is in there negotiating with Pofo equivalent of the BNP.

I have no interest in a coalition with a Party the majority of whom are Blairite neoliberals and worse.

[Gnote]

Then you will get a government comprised completely of Milton Friedmans and Jerry Faldwells.


You've cut off your nose to spite your face.

[FallenRaptor]

...forming a coalition with those sympathetic to your cause.

That's the problem. Very few SLDs sympathize with even a bit of our cause. When we suggest we would form a coalition if the SLD agreed with at least 2/3rds of our platform there was a large uproar from your Blairite faction. Members of the PUC and SLD demanded that we abandon over half of our platform and sell out the workers. We obviously refused and some of the left-SLD faction defected to our party(while Falx formed the THP).

Your threats about an far right coalition don't seem very realistic anyway. The fascists and libertarians have been largely marginalized, and I have doubts that the neo-cons would have much influence in a grand coalition(if you guys can even form a coalition).

[Gnote]

I have doubts that the neo-cons would have much influence in a grand coalition(if you guys can even form a coalition).

Then it would appear you haven't been following the centre-right coalition talks very closely.

[ingliz]

If we were to form a government with another Party there would have to be broad agreement on what joint platform we stand. For unless that was the case you would have the continual embarassment of half the coalitions MP's abstaining, at best, or more likely voting against key Government legislation until the inevitable vote of confidence is called. It would be a farce!

[Gnote]

It would work much better if you went on a bill-by-bill basis, determining beforehand the issues that you can come to terms on.

In forgoing a centre-left coalition, the SN-RF (not to mention the THP) has also forgone things like:

1) A guaranteed minimum income.

2) Effective universal health insurance.

3) A sufficiently progressive income tax regime.

4) Labour rights.

All of these things would have been possible under a centre-left coalition, and will be impossible under a centre-right-extreme right-fascist regime.

[Fasces]

Nevermind the fact that the 'fascists' endorse 3/4 of those issues.

[Gnote]

Sure, but the rest of the right doesn't.

And the fascists bring a whole 'nother kind of awful.

[Fasces]

Such as?

[Gnote]

The members of parliament.

[Stevie]

So Now

[ingliz]

Gnote:

So you will support a Party "Social" in name only refusing to join the only social democratic coalition in town, the RF/SN, and stand idly by as your Party dismantles the safety net?

[HoniSoit]

The fact of the matter is that you had a chance to exert some influence on the direction of the country by forming a coalition with those sympathetic to your cause.

Gnote - it's a little more complicated than we had a chance but blew it.

THP - whose votes the potential alliance needs - is strongly opposed to forming a government with SLD. You can look at their party thread and see it.

And there is the strong opposition within the SLD using unhelpful rhetorics and falsely presenting the SN-RF's positions.

As you can read in the SN and RF party threads, most of the members are in favor of the alliance with SLD but some members in your party aren't really keen to be an equal partner - which is ridiculous given the SN-RF has actually more votes than that of SLD.

It is not going to be a strong and stable alliance that is worth all the troubles of forming it.

[Demosthenes]

Gnote - it's a little more complicated than we had a chance but blew it.

Yeah it is. I told you we weren't ready yet, even gave you a timetable for when we *might* be, and had a plan in place to account for several possibilities.
It's not exactly honest then to come in here and blame these guys when that plan wasn't followed by you, nor when you elected not to heed the concerns I had about the SLD in the first place.

When Paradigm opened his mouth, I warned you that not enough of the party had been informed of what was going on for this to work very smoothly.

I have to question a few things about how that all went down, frankly.

Questions which can honestly be left as questions at this point, unless you choose not to desist from giving these guys a hard time.

[Gnote]

It all boils down to this: you had an ear, and a chance to put forth a proposal, but before any proposal came forward, you squashed the whole idea of a coalition.

Paradigm was more than foolish in blabbering the whole idea about the board in public, but when it came down to it, SN-RF had a chance to put forth the broad strokes of a proposal.

[Subversive Rob]

I can't honestly say it would really have come to anything. Several members of your party would clearly have demanded changes that we simply couldn't have made. There was also a sense in which even those who were sympathetic felt that SLD should be in the driving seat, notwithstanding the fact that alone SN nearly equalled your vote, and with the RF we are the biggest party and the fact that the THP is 'with' us.

Also, Gnote, you are presenting this as if it is unproblematic that we should go into coalition. But the blackmail you propose - join with us (and as such water down your platform) or the right will get in is massively problematic. Because as it has been deployed historically it basically leads to socialists compromising until eventually they become simply ancilliary to 'centrist' social democrats. This usually entails a loss of principles and a loss of purpose and votes - witness the PCF, the PCI, Rifondazione etc.

[Demosthenes]

It all boils down to this: you had an ear, and a chance to put forth a proposal, but before any proposal came forward, you squashed the whole idea of a coalition.

Paradigm was more than foolish in blabbering the whole idea about the board in public, but when it came down to it, SN-RF had a chance to put forth the broad strokes of a proposal.

No, it doesn't boil down to that. It boils down to "we were in the conceptual stage" not in the "action" stage. You can't force that. People tend to feel as if there are wings in the party that are flapping without them when things like that happen. We had a duty to the rest of the party (and the coaltion) to include them, and we were working on a procedure to do just that, but all that got blown and it is NOT our fault.

There wasn't any proposal, not becaue it wasn't possible, but because only a few of us even knew about it all at the point it was made public, and apparently even we were "out of the loop" on a few issues.

Berate us all you want, but we weren't ready, and I told you that at the time. I gave you a specific timetable as well, which Paradigm's actions ruined completely. Making it somewhat troublesome that you're here now blaming us. Anyway here we are days later and so far there is no "centrist" or right coalition. Until that forms, if it ever does...well...none of this matters anyway.

Also, Gnote, you are presenting this as if it is unproblematic that we should go into coalition. But the blackmail you propose - join with us (and as such water down your platform) or the right will get in is massively problematic. Because as it has been deployed historically it basically leads to socialists compromising until eventually they become simply ancilliary to 'centrist' social democrats. This usually entails a loss of principles and a loss of purpose and votes - witness the PCF, the PCI, Rifondazione etc.

At the end of the day, though I'm not as opposed to coalition as some of you are, I have to agree.

[Subversive Rob]

I should say I'm certainly not opposed to a coalition per se with SLD. I am opposed to being blackmailed into it and I'm opposed to the idea that we would be junior partners. I would also point out that - even now - the SLD is like two different parties, with some Old Labour style people (or thereabouts) and some people who avowedly could fit in with the PUC.