Should The Government Take Care Of The Poor? - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14737145
Drlee wrote:Once someone becomes truly homeless there is no intervention at all, short of housing them, which will stop and inexorable descent into hopelessness and finally death.

There is one: restoring their right to liberty, the right that has been removed and made the private property of landowners. In countries where landed property is not as strictly enforced, people are able to find a place where they can house themselves, even if it's in a corrugated tin shack. Our remote Paleolithic ancestors enjoyed the liberty right to use land to make housing for themselves. Our modern homeless do not have that right. It has been removed and given to landowners as their private property.
In my city of just over a million folks it is a full time job for a homeless person to feed himself. They can't travel by bus so they must plan a walk between feeding opportunities. They must plan on which days a month showers are available and sometimes set out early to get to them. They must plan circuitous routes to avoid high enforcement areas and residential areas where the police will harass them on the way to find a meal.

Yep. Because their right to space in which to exist on the earth has been removed and made the private property of landowners.
Imagine a life where you have to affirmatively plan to be somewhere where you can go to the bathroom. Then you have to travel to that location and wait for the spirit to move you, so to speak. It is unthinkable. Yet tens of thousands of Americans do it every day. This in a country where our economy generates about $56,000.00 per person.

It is a form of slavery that affects all of us to varying degrees. But our owners are every landowner who owns a tiny slice of our right to liberty. The more land you own by value, the more you are a slave owner; the less land value you own, the more you are a slave. When you own no land, you must labor for the unearned profit of greedy, idle landowners (or mortgage lenders) just as a slave must labor for the unearned profit of his owner, or you join the homeless.
And here is the worst thing of all. If the government set out to take a huge bite out of homelessness by adapting a "housing first" model just for the government money currently being spent, it would save the taxpayers a fortune. In other words, it has proved to be cheaper to give someone an apartment than to leave them on the street.

Yes, the Canadian government did a thorough study of this, and the results were unambiguous: homelessness costs society far more in emergency services, crime, etc. than just housing people.
#14737255
The Constitution specifically mentions a right to provide general welfare, so as far as it's concerned there doesn't seem to be much serious debate.
#14747365
First of all, allow me to say that I enjoyed reading your post ,also allow me to say that you posed some essential questions; such as (does the goverment have an obligation to make everybody rich?) and (what is the different between interests and rights?)..and yes we may differ in our points of view based on differenig beliefs.
What is the state? this is the main question we need to answer, state is a social contract, where individuals surrender some of their rigthts to an authority in exchange for protection for their remaining rights.
The core functions of state is to maintain the fundamental rights of individuals(liberty of speech, liberty to demonstrate,..and etc); but from among these rights there is one that protrudes...the right to have a (bare subsistence wage) that makes everybody living a decent life, where his basic needs are satisfied, and of course I'm not talking about any sort of communistic utopian concepts,I'm talkin about the right of having equal opportunities to compete, and yes I believe it's the state responsibility to pave the way to citizen welfare.
Afterwards everyone is on their own. Be well.
#14747454
mohamed abdalgader10 wrote:The core functions of state is to maintain the fundamental rights of individuals(liberty of speech, liberty to demonstrate,..and etc); but from among these rights there is one that protrudes...the right to have a (bare subsistence wage) that makes everybody living a decent life, where his basic needs are satisfied, and of course I'm not talking about any sort of communistic utopian concepts,I'm talkin about the right of having equal opportunities to compete, and yes I believe it's the state responsibility to pave the way to citizen welfare.

There is a lot of confusion about rights. People have rights to everything they would have if others did not take it from them: mainly life, liberty, and property in the fruits of their labor. That's all. They do not have a right to anything that they would not otherwise have, and someone else would have to provide for them, such as a basic income, food, housing, medical care, education, etc. Society might choose, democratically, to provide some or all of those things as a matter of prudent policy, but they are not rights.
#14747523
What happens if a person worked all their lives but was injured and can not return to work. Do they get neutered as well?

And wealthy people do a lot of good work, like organizing their buisness empires. I don't see Decky running a business. I'm sure his view will change a lot when most of his workers want is just money from him, for as less of work as possible.

That shall bring out the capitalist out of him.
#14747533
At that point it is higher management. Where do you invest. Will people buy the apartments? What can they afford, who are we targeting here. At that point you are looking at market trends, and you are concerned with more broader issues then just specific business interests. Heck politics even come to play part in this regard. Will the regional mp give you shit for building on his turf, or can you pay him off? Maybe get your "union boys" to make him see reason.

Hence Decks gets eaten up by the world, next thing you know it he is a vicious capitalist tacoon.
#14747616
I propose a lottery where our bank accounts are randomly switched every month. It will then be God's will who starves and who does not.
#14747640
It is kinda scary when 1% has 90% of the wealth. If you came up in head to head competition with one of Donald's or Hillary's kid for a job who do you figure would get it? If you were negotiating with Algore about how much it took you to survive, how much would that be? The situation will get worse, not better.
#14747659
.....does the goverment have an obligation to make everybody rich?


Well this is a good point. Certainly the government (and most conservatives) believe in corporate welfare. Donald Trump just facilitated a large corporation getting tax breaks to keep some few jobs here. Cities give corporations welfare grants all of the time. 'Build your Home Depot in our town and we will give you a property tax break." Government floats bond issues to buy football stadiums that would never in a million years pay for themselves. We directly transfer Research and Development money to corporations to develop items the government needs. Then we let them keep the patents, build the products and sell them to the same government that paid to develop them in the first place. We tax middle class people FAR higher than we do rich people (as a percentage of income if you include social security.)

So a better question would probably be: "Should the government take care of the rich?"
#14748065
Albert wrote:And wealthy people do a lot of good work, like organizing their buisness empires.

"Slave owners do a lot of good work, like organizing their plantations, making sure their labor force works hard, and so on. Do you think whipping a lazy slave is easy?"
I don't see Decky running a business. I'm sure his view will change a lot when most of his workers want is just money from him, for as less of work as possible.

That shall bring out the capitalist out of him.

Well, it has happened often enough.

Decky's problem is that he has swallowed the Marxist pills, and thinks it is labor vs capital when it is actually producers vs parasites.
Decky wrote:Lol they have managers to organise things, the wealthy owners just sit on their arses and get money for other people's work.

See? Decky can't tell the difference between owning something because you are the one who contributed it, and owning something because the government gave you a title to it.
#14748071
Suntzu wrote:Folks who furnish the capital should be rewarded. Should it be 90%?

That can't happen with capital -- but it can with land. Before the Vietnam War, there were cases of sharecroppers in the Mekong Delta paying 90% of their harvest to the landowner.

Both socialists and capitalists are keen to prevent you from knowing the difference between capital and privilege: the socialists because they want you to think capital is privilege so they have an excuse to steal capital, and the capitalists because they want you to think privilege is capital so they have an excuse to profit from privilege.
I think a 100% death tax would be interesting, everyone starts out equal.

That is certainly incorrect. Never heard of inter vivos transfers?

Do you think the problem with slavery was that slaves could be inherited? When you advocate inheritance taxes as a solution to the injustices created by privilege, you are effectively saying that the problem with slavery was inheritance of slaves.

THE PROBLEM WITH PRIVILEGE IS PRIVILEGE, NOT INHERITANCE.
Suntzu wrote:It is kinda scary when 1% has 90% of the wealth.

Well, it's not quite that bad yet, but the top 1% in wealth has more than the bottom 90%. Take away owner-occupied housing, and the top 1% have as much wealth as the bottom 99%.
Last edited by Truth To Power on 10 Dec 2016 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
#14748430
Decky's problem is that he has swallowed the Marxist pills, and thinks it is labor vs capital when it is actually producers vs parasites.


It is both. The scientific name for the producing class is the Proletariat, the scientific name for parasitises is the bourgeoisie.
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