[Selivan]

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[SolarCross]

Hmm ...
But, Socialism, it's the opposite.
Tell me the reason, please ...

Oil workers can earn $100,000 a year. Clerks can very easily be on just minimum wage. You basically just made that up.

[Selivan]

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[SolarCross]

Your idea is about 150 years out of date. The skills needed to be a competent clerk are basic literacy and basic numeracy, 150 years ago those skills were not so common but the demand for those with those skills was growing fast. These days public education has replaced traditional craft education to a great extent. This kind of education has a strong bias towards academic skills the foundation of which is literacy and numeracy. Nowadays 99% of people are overqualified for clerk work from decades of pubic education training everyone in how to be an academic while very few people can do even basic tool use. It's just supply and demand. 150 years ago academic skills were scarce while practical skills common, today the reverse is true so clerks get paid shit because of an oversupply of clerk skills while people with practical skills make a killing because they are in hot demand.

[Selivan]

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[Zamuel]

Although, what can you expect from a character who has Pinochet on the avatar?

From the posts he's made in this thread, you can expect some useful information and help in understanding a world you don't seem familiar with. Here's some more.

Clerk is an archaic term not really in use in todays corporate world. Today they are called "Staff." AND - they aren't usually men anymore, a majority are women (another reason they earn less than productive blue collar employees).

Zam

[Selivan]

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[Crantag]

Situations really do vary. Geography could have a lot to do with it.

I've worked a lot of physically demanding jobs which people thought I was nuts for doing because I have an education. But I always found that I could earn more and get more reliable work doing labor than shuffling paper where I lived. On the other hand, I sort of suspected that paper shufflers were willing to accept less pay in order to work at a job where they could be inside and sit on their ass all day (though I find such work quite unfulfilling).

On the other hand, cities tend to have higher relative salaries (along with higher living costs, to go with them), as well as a lot more office jobs. By contrast, rural places tend to have higher labor demand for jobs involving physical work, and this can cause wages to tend upward.

There was a time when, while working as a paper shuffler in Rural USA, I noticed that I couldn't even really afford to buy a car, whereas the construction workers all drove pickup trucks, and some of them nice ones.

In economics though, the basic notion is that you do whatever earns you the most money, regardless of your educational background. Despite this, not only does laziness potentially play a factor for those who prefer to shuffle paper, but in addition some people hold to the notion that physically challenging work is 'beneath them' because they have a paper diploma from a university in their drawer.

[Crantag]

Thank you, write more ...
I like to collect "s..t...p...d Americans" ...
Americans sometimes say "office clerk", sometimes "white or blue collar" ....
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I lived in America and have real estate there, so I ask you to be more careful in terms and disputes.

================================================== =
But my question is much broader.
- You must have Education and be able to compare the Capitalist and Socialist system
- You must have an experience of living in these systems ...
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------
If you do not have this experience, then behave very carefully and do not try to teach me ... Okay?

I understand 'white-collar' to be a term for 'managers', not office workers.

Managers often earn more on account of their job label, while in many cases they don't actually do much to merit it (but some managers are hard working. I think work ethic is just a thing some people have, whereas some people are lazy and make a conscious effort to do the minimum to get by. I have quite a bit of scorn for people who I observe putting in work toward the specific aim of avoiding work.)

[Selivan]

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[Crantag]

You are still speaking from the point of view of the capitalist economy

If you are not familiar with the planned economy of socialism, then this is my expression that will immediately put you in a dead end:

The salary of the worker and the "white collar" in the socialist system is not included in the cost of production, but is paid out of the Enterprise Profit ...
In the capitalist system, only bonuses and dividends are paid out of the Profit ...
-------------------------------------------------- -
Well, how?
Do you want to live under socialism?

Yes, I was speaking from the perspective of capitalist economics. More particularly, I was speaking mostly within the context of the United States economic system, which I thought was the relevant context of your question.

I understand what you are getting at, and what you reference is an agreeable way to pay workers, and has analogues in worker-owned cooperatives.

I say the following not to be disagreeable but rather to point out a particular common flaw in the arrangement you put forth, which is commonplace in planned economies: managers self-enriching through bribery and other means of corruption.

This is a commonplace problem, to my understanding. One tried solution is to put the managers that are revealed to be corrupt up against the wall and put a bullet in them. The ideal-ness of this arrangement is grounds for fair debate. We know well from human society that in reality justice is rarely blind, in the efficacy may be subject to question--attended by the human and indeed social consequences thereby entailed. Perhaps a post-manager society will be one day possible? The past has perhaps been a 'damned if you do damned if you don't' arrangement with respect to managerial norms.

[SolarCross]

[Selivan]

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[Crantag]

I understand you perfectly and I can say:
Even if you think that you are touching the socialist economy, but in fact your text shows that this is not a socialist economy.
Even cooperatives and managers are, on the contrary, a capitalist economy.
---------------------------------------
You must understand the main differences.
You do not see them yet, because in America they do not study the economy of socialism ...

==================================
I will try to create a separate topic and try to very briefly compare the positions of the capitalist and socialist economy ....

To clarify: cooperatives I raised as an analogue which exists in capitalism. I used managers as a general term that includes official decisionmakers in enterprises under centerally planned economies. I think I followed your lead there.

I've studied in America and in other places. Most of the economics I've studied formally is capitalist economics, though not all of It by a bit of a shout.

[Godstud]

Office work is work. Often it pays more because you are required to have a much better education and there is a great deal more responsibility. When the responsibility and training of a manual labour job matches that, so does the pay cheques.

I worked a "working man" job and made great money in the oilfield. My friend, who was a directional driller was making doctor salary ($1500/day). It depends on what you do.

Welders in the oilfield were making upwards of $100/hr. Jobs pay according to what they're worth.

[Zamuel]

I lived in America and have real estate there, so I ask you to be more careful in terms and disputes.:

If you do not have this experience, then behave very carefully and do not try to teach me ... Okay?

Allright, I'll just make one "suggestion," See if you can't find a copy of the American Film - Borat - .

Zam

[Selivan]

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[Selivan]

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[Godstud]

Post in English, or go to a different forum. We have rules against people like you using this as a platform for your rubbish, and posting in English is a rule.

[SolarCross]

Allright, I'll just make one "suggestion," See if you can't find a copy of the American Film - Borat - .
Zam

A British-American film, Sacha Baron Cohen the star and writer is a Brit (jewish).

I feel sorry for the horse.