Brainstorm: Ways Ordinary Persons can Protect Themselves From Currency Debasement - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14960158
So since money became fully fake around 1971 with the end of bretton woods the ordinary working men and women are getting cumulatively robbed by the money counterfeiters in government. This is the chiefest reason why gen x and millennials are so relatively crushed financially compared with preceding generations such as the boomers. What counter-measures and defenses can people do to protect themselves from this robbery?

Let's brainstorm this!

To start some random ideas...

1. Don't save money in the fake money format, put surplus savings in an non-perishable form: Gold, silver, bitcoin, real estate etc.

2. Wherever possible take payment for your services and goods in a non-perishable form (see above). Consider starting or participating in a LETS.

3. Support any political movements that emerge for fixing the money supply.

4... what else?

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From Currency Debasement To Social Collapse: 4 Case Studies

By a continuing process of inflation, Governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some …. Those to whom the system brings windfalls …. become “profiteers” who are the object of the hatred … the process of wealth-getting degenerates into a gamble and a lottery .. Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.

- John Maynard Keynes
#14960724
I agree with #1 and #2.

I am hesitant about #3, probably because of my accelerationist tendencies.

#4.....Have the means to protect those assets and have other resources available that are of value. Like Liquor, Canned Goods, Ammo, AntiBiotics, Recreational Drugs, Porno (just kidding, sorta), etc..

#5. Take an Agorist approach, bypass the major fiat economy by involving yourself in micro-economies, the dark web (using block-chain, and crypto), black markets, local trade involving bartering goods and services.
#14960732
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I agree with #1 and #2.

I am hesitant about #3, probably because of my accelerationist tendencies.

#4.....Have the means to protect those assets and have other resources available that are of value. Like Liquor, Canned Goods, Ammo, Porno (just kidding, sorta), etc..

#5. Take an Agorist approach, bypass the major fiat economy by involving yourself in micro-economies, the dark web (using block-chain, and crypto), black markets, local trade involving bartering goods and services.


All good. What about pushing for higher prices for the things one sells (including labour) when selling for fiat? Part of the reason the money printers are able to rob people through inflation is that people don't adjust their prices upwards fast enough. This also plays well with an accelerationist angle.
#14960734
SolarCross wrote:Part of the reason the money printers are able to rob people through inflation is that people don't adjust their prices upwards fast enough. This also plays well with an accelerationist angle.


That makes sense I guess, though it depends on how much your primary income depends on sales. If you raise your prices for, lets say, the goods you produce on your farm that you need to pay your bills (that only accept fiat), you don't want to raise prices so high that demand drops off and you can't make your payments, etc.

SO, I suppose it depends on how dependent you are on the "grid" that requires fiat.

If you had no "need" for fiat at all, then sure. What could it hurt?
#14960749
Victoribus Spolia wrote:That makes sense I guess, though it depends on how much your primary income depends on sales. If you raise your prices for, lets say, the goods you produce on your farm that you need to pay your bills (that only accept fiat), you don't want to raise prices so high that demand drops off and you can't make your payments, etc.

SO, I suppose it depends on how dependent you are on the "grid" that requires fiat.

If you had no "need" for fiat at all, then sure. What could it hurt?

The utility company is in some sense in the same boat as the rest of us consequently they have to keep an eye on debasement to adjust their prices accordingly hence why their prices rise over time. It's basically a devil take the hindmost race to inflate, the last one to raise their prices gets robbed the hardest.
#14960756
SolarCross wrote:The utility company is in some sense in the same boat as the rest of us consequently they have to keep an eye on debasement to adjust their prices accordingly hence why their prices rise over time. It's basically a devil take the hindmost race to inflate, the last one to raise their prices gets robbed the hardest.


Correct, and unless your a guru financial investor or a prophet of Almighty God, this is a good reason why "opting out" of the current market system is a rational choice; especially for ordinary persons who are the ones most likely to get robbed the hardest.

as I insinuated in #4 above, having alternative resources and a means of protecting said resources is important, the moment inflation gets out of control, the biggest threat to the state re-stabilizing its fiat is the emergence of alternative monies in the market place. Likewise, in the event of a collapse, marauders and desperate individuals can often be bartered away from your Gold safe if you have other things they may want (as listed in #4).....(assuming you couldn't shoot them beforehand).
#14960763
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Correct, and unless your a guru financial investor or a prophet of Almighty God, this is a good reason why "opting out" of the current market system is a rational choice; especially for ordinary persons who are the ones most likely to get robbed the hardest.

as I insinuated in #4 above, having alternative resources and a means of protecting said resources is important, the moment inflation gets out of control, the biggest threat to the state re-stabilizing its fiat is the emergence of alternative monies in the market place. Likewise, in the event of a collapse, marauders and desperate individuals can often be bartered away from your Gold safe if you have other things they may want (as listed in #4).....(assuming you couldn't shoot them beforehand).


Opting out is easier said than done, and even where that is doable it will usually mean opting IN even harder in order to get out. If one isn't starting out with land, a certain skillset and so on, then one will have to get them and to get them one will have to trade for currency.
#14960772
SolarCross wrote:Opting out is easier said than done, and even where that is doable it will usually mean opting IN even harder in order to get out. If one isn't starting out with land, a certain skillset and so on, then one will have to get them and to get them one will have to trade for currency.


Which is why people in such cases will have a better chance of practical survival by engaging in more explicitly illegal forms of economy, because artificially raising prices (as you have suggested) at the risk of dropping marketable demand seems to be far too dangerous of a gamble for an ordinary person.

Now, I'm not saying that their only options are to either become drug-dealers or go off-grid.....but thats actually pretty close to what I am saying....so scratch that last part... :lol:
#14960783
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Which is why people in such cases will have a better chance of practical survival by engaging in more explicitly illegal forms of economy, because artificially raising prices (as you have suggested) at the risk of dropping marketable demand seems to be far too dangerous of a gamble for an ordinary person.

Now, I'm not saying that their only options are to either become drug-dealers or go off-grid.....but thats actually pretty close to what I am saying....so scratch that last part... :lol:

Well I don't think it is that dangerous, but of course one can never raise prices fast enough to catch up with the money printers, they can always print more so by itself self-inflating isn't going to work. The decisive protection is to demand a different currency, one with persistent value like silver or gold.

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Why do you think no one else is interested in this topic?
#14960785
SolarCross wrote:Why do you think no one else is interested in this topic?


They regard it as conspiratorial because of their monetary theory or economic theory.

SolarCross wrote:Well I don't think it is that dangerous, but of course one can never raise prices fast enough to catch up with the money printers, they can always print more so by itself self-inflating isn't going to work. The decisive protection is to demand a different currency, one with persistent value like silver or gold.


That ain't going to happen, that is a demand for the state to self-regulate and self-limit its own growth and expansion. Its a praxeological impossibility without some sort of reset or crisis.

Hence why I was skeptical of your #3.

It can't and won't be done.
#14960791
Victoribus Spolia wrote:That ain't going to happen, that is a demand for the state to self-regulate and self-limit its own growth and expansion. Its a praxeological impossibility without some sort of reset or crisis.

Hence why I was skeptical of your #3.

It can't and won't be done.

I was referring to a personal demand for non-perishable currency in one's day to day business rather than a demand on government to change its monetary policy. The latter will be persisted with until it breaks down entirely.
#14960792
SolarCross wrote:I was referring to a personal demand for non-perishable currency in one's day to day business rather than a demand on government to change its monetary policy.


How is that different than the Agorism I suggested? It seems like nothing more than bypassing the fiat currency via economic secession, market rebellion.

SolarCross wrote:The latter will be persisted with until it breaks down entirely.


Got it. Agreed.
#14960800
Victoribus Spolia wrote:How is that different than the Agorism I suggested? It seems like nothing more than bypassing the fiat currency via economic secession, market rebellion.

It isn't different.

#7 Educate your neighbour. Hyperinflation has happened before, many times, and often when it happens nobody knows what the fuck is going on and so fall prey to despair, scape goating and all sorts of other unproductive activities. For those that get it, never miss an opportunity to clue others up to the real nature of the problem. The more people who understand the problem the more people will manage the situation intelligently.

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#8 Speculate to accumulate. Be aware of prices in real terms (gold and silver) to get a proper view of whether something is over or under valued. buy undervalued things and flip them when overvalued.

Eg: The exchange ratio between gold and silver right now suggests silver is greatly undervalued relative to gold. If one was looking to get gold over the longish term a smart way to do it might be to buy silver and then flip into gold when the ratio moves back.

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#14960807
SolarCross wrote:#8 Speculate to accumulate. Be aware of prices in real terms (gold and silver) to get a proper view of whether something is over or under valued. buy undervalued things and flip them when overvalued.


Good suggestion, its easy to get lazy and only see the price of hard money in terms of fiat pricing on the market.

SolarCross wrote:#7 Educate your neighbour. Hyperinflation has happened before, many times, and often when it happens nobody knows what the fuck is going on and so fall prey to despair, scape goating and all sorts of other unproductive activities. For those that get it, never miss an opportunity to clue others up to the real nature of the problem. The more people who understand the problem the more people will manage the situation intelligently.


Also good, but being a loudmouth about pretty much everything in my life and little mind, this has never been a problem. :lol:

SolarCross wrote:It isn't different.


Ok, cool.

It looks like we are on the EXACT same page for a change. :lol:
#14960813
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Good suggestion, its easy to get lazy and only see the price of hard money in terms of fiat pricing on the market.

Yeah and the more fiat currency gets debased the worse it becomes as a measure of value. Gold tracks pretty closely to a basket of commodities which suggests gold is the best measure. A lot of boomers thought they are getting rich off of their real estate not realising that relative to gold their property values haven't changed as much as they might think. At best they preserved some wealth which would have vanished in value if kept in fiat. As a tie in with my point about self-inflating one could work out what one's time should be worth in terms of gold and then keep an eye on the gold price in fiat currency to see what ideally one should be pricing one's time in fiat currency. This way one can be quick to adapt to a fiat value drops. Really this goes for appraising anything.

Victoribus Spolia wrote:Also good, but being a loudmouth about pretty much everything in my life and little mind, this has never been a problem. :lol:

:up:

Victoribus Spolia wrote:Ok, cool.

It looks like we are on the EXACT same page for a change. :lol:

Yeah, though I would put a bit less emphasis on going off-grid and breeding up a new generation as a pension. It works for you, I don't doubt, but a lot us couldn't take that path and I would say hardly need to because there are other ways of managing the situation.
#14960820
SolarCross wrote:Yeah, though I would put a bit less emphasis on going off-grid and breeding up a new generation as a pension. It works for you, I don't doubt, but a lot us couldn't take that path and I would say hardly need to because there are other ways of managing the situation.


A lot of this has to do with a difference regarding long-term goals, so thats understandable.

SolarCross wrote:Yeah and the more fiat currency gets debased the worse it becomes as a measure of value. Gold tracks pretty closely to a basket of commodities which suggests gold is the best measure.


Agreed. Good points.

SolarCross wrote: A lot of boomers thought they are getting rich off of their real estate not realising that relative to gold their property values haven't changed as much as they might think.


I suppose this is also a good argument against treating real-estate as a mere commodity investment.

Agricultural land, for instance, has a value quite a bit different than a mere duplex in upper manhattan.

The value also comes from its potential to produce more value and hedge against market instability (I know this sounds like another off-grid arguement, but keep in mind that gold is a hedge against a currency collapse and market collapse, usable land is not much different and I think you mentioned as much in the OP)

Hence, I think "Real estate" as a term should be broken down. Its too ambiguous.

SolarCross wrote:Really this goes for appraising anything.


This is especially good for creating prices in a new alternative market (agorism). Most people fail to understand how to develop prices and wage-rates apart from fiat because they have failed to think in terms of actual value instead of government create "faux" values.
#14960830
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I suppose this is also a good argument against treating real-estate as a mere commodity investment.

Agricultural land, for instance, has a value quite a bit different than a mere duplex in upper manhattan.

The value also comes from its potential to produce more value and hedge against market instability (I know this sounds like another off-grid arguement, but keep in mind that gold is a hedge against a currency collapse and market collapse, usable land is not much different and I think you mentioned as much in the OP)

Hence, I think "Real estate" as a term should be broken down. Its too ambiguous.

Yes, because by default one should expect things like gold and real estate to maintain constant values over time, if they appear to be increasing in value by some measure of fiat then the reality is that very likely it is actually the fiat losing value not the land or gold gaining it. An ounce of gold in the days of ancient rome is pretty much the same thing as it is now, and the same goes for an acre of land. Either land or gold can be a store of value but gold is fungible, easier to flip, and carry around while land can host an actual productive enterprise. So gold is money while land is potentially a working asset.

Victoribus Spolia wrote:This is especially good for creating prices in a new alternative market (agorism). Most people fail to understand how to develop prices and wage-rates apart from fiat because they have failed to think in terms of actual value instead of government create "faux" values.

That's right. Even if gold isn't necessarily used as currency it can still serve as a universal agorist price standard. Maybe I want to buy an acre of land but I have bitcoin not gold to pay for it. If the seller is setting the price of an acre in gold and bitcoin has a gold price it isn't very complicated to work out how much bitcoin is needed to buy an acre.
#14961003
SolarCross wrote:So since money became fully fake around 1971 with the end of bretton woods the ordinary working men and women are getting cumulatively robbed by the money counterfeiters in government. This is the chiefest reason why gen x and millennials are so relatively crushed financially compared with preceding generations such as the boomers. What counter-measures and defenses can people do to protect themselves from this robbery?

Let's brainstorm this!

To start some random ideas...

1. Don't save money in the fake money format, put surplus savings in an non-perishable form: Gold, silver, bitcoin, real estate etc.

2. Wherever possible take payment for your services and goods in a non-perishable form (see above). Consider starting or participating in a LETS.

3. Support any political movements that emerge for fixing the money supply.

4... what else?

-----------

Image

"By a continuing process of inflation, Governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some …. Those to whom the system brings windfalls …. become “profiteers” who are the object of the hatred … the process of wealth-getting degenerates into a gamble and a lottery .. Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."

- John Maynard Keynes



Keynes was right, but that chart is meaningless without explanation of "Cumulative Change in Prices based on 1800 = 100" and what the un-named units on the right y axis are. It cannot possibly mean inflation-adjusted dollars and is almost certainly a corollary of the absence of the frequent deflations which occurred before 1913.

IOW the Fed - whatever its faults - has acheived its remit of price stability, but "Biblicism.com" ( :roll: ) seems to think price stability means big chaotic fluctuations which cancel out over time, rather than predictable low inflation.
#14961034
SolarCross wrote:An ounce of gold in the days of ancient rome is pretty much the same thing as it is now, and the same goes for an acre of land. Either land or gold can be a store of value but gold is fungible, easier to flip, and carry around while land can host an actual productive enterprise. So gold is money while land is potentially a working asset.


Well stated.

SolarCross wrote:That's right. Even if gold isn't necessarily used as currency it can still serve as a universal agorist price standard. Maybe I want to buy an acre of land but I have bitcoin not gold to pay for it. If the seller is setting the price of an acre in gold and bitcoin has a gold price it isn't very complicated to work out how much bitcoin is needed to buy an acre.


Absolutely.

I think agorism will arise inevitable as the state continues to tighten its grip on liberty both socially and in the market.

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