If the poor get poorer why do they have more stuff than ever before? - Page 16 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14978015
It's nice to ignore other factors when cherry-picking, isn't it? Native-Americans are not all poor people, either. It's an ethnic group with a history.
From One Degree's article wrote:According the Indian Health Services, the rate of alcoholism among Native Americans is six times the U.S. average.

“Certain ethnic groups experience alcoholism on a wider level,” wrote Bethany Winkel, an expert on alcoholism, addiction and treatment,

“Native Americans are one such group. Their rate of alcoholism is much higher than the rest of the population, and one in 10 Native American deaths is alcohol-related [three times the average for the broader population].”

Winkel explained Native Americans were initially introduced to alcohol by the European settlers and traders.

“Alcohol was often traded for Native American goods, and possibly used to relax the Native Americans in order to get a better trade,” she stated.

“The newness of the substance had a great influence on the Native American culture. But researchers over the years have shown that the effects of alcohol on this culture are also due to genetics.”

Other cultural and historical also aggravated the problems of alcohol (and other ills) among Native Americans.

“The decline of Native American culture when European settlers moved in led to an oppressed society,” Winkel noted.

“The cultural clash that still exists today between Native Americans and the dominant society around them has led to conflict, depression, and low self-esteem in the Native American culture. Poverty abounds, along with unemployment, poor education, depression, and drug abuse.”

Not only are Native Americans subject to death from alcohol, but rates of homicide, suicide, diabetes, cardiovascular disease are also quite high.
#14978026
Godstud wrote:It's nice to ignore other factors when cherry-picking, isn't it? Native-Americans are not all poor people, either. It's an ethnic group with a history.


He asked for a source and I provided it. Native Americans are aware of this research so if they are still drinking then that is not the cause.
#14978030
So, you did not quote any text.

From this, it can be assumed that the article does not actually support the claim that a guaranteed basic income will lead to higher levels of intoxication and criminality.

And since I read it, I know for a faxt that it does not supoort your claim.
#14978031
No, @Pants-of-dog, the article mentioned absolutely nothing about a basic income level, or indeed, any income references atall.

One degree wrote:Native Americans are aware of this research so if they are still drinking then that is not the cause.
Irrelevant, of course.
#14978032
Godstud wrote:No, @Pants-of-dog, the article mentioned absolutely nothing about a basic income level, or indeed, any income references atall.

Irrelevant, of course.

80% are unemployed. Do you have evidence they are being denied the benefits of our safety net? Yes, I know any facts that don’t match your view are irrelevant. Which is why it is so irritating when you ask for sources you will just ignore.
#14978059
OD has a wonderful habit of not understanding what he is reading or picking something completely irrelevant to point to.

Like this:

The Mormon church is a semi-socialist organization. From Woman's Relief Society to Bishop's warehouse, Mormons are cared for by their church from cradle to grave. Crony employment is the order of the day for Mormons. Yet. They do not drink or smoke.

Bye argument.

Here One Degree. Did you read this in your article?

But researchers over the years have shown that the effects of alcohol on this culture are also due to genetics


Maybe you forgot. No. Just trolling. Huh?

My question is this. Is drinking naughty? Does God hate it? Is that why it is bad for a welfare recipient to drink? Or maybe you hate the alcohol industry and are mad that they are getting money. Or maybe it is poverty that is naughty. Is that it? Welfare recipients should be punished by not allowing them to drink? How about eat a candy bar? Surly that is naughty too. Should welfare recipients not be allowed to own a television? That is naughty. And a computer. Poor kids do not need computers for homework. Only rich kids need that.

Hey One Degree. I have a question for you. You say that having money makes welfare recipients buy booze and cigarettes. You said it is the money that does this. Here is my question. I earn a shit-ton of money. I could literally buy a winery and cigarettes are pocket change. How come I drank way more when I had less money and smoked and now I drink way less and do not smoke at all yet I have a lot of money. Why is that? Did something go wrong in my case?

You like statistics. Here is one for you to explain. (Yes I am making fun of your absurd "statistics".)

Shoe machine operators are twice as likely to die of alcoholism than the average American.

Does someone like you who gets the biggest two welfare programs in the country, Social Security and Medicare, spend their money on booze and cigarettes? If not why not? If you had a point surely you can answer that.

OD Asked speaking of one tribe of Native Americans: 80% are unemployed. Do you have evidence they are being denied the benefits of our safety net?


Duh. Do you really not understand how absurd your question is? Or maybe it is what Hindsite said of Bernie Sandiers. ....low IQ? You modern "conservatives" seem to be enamored with it. Is that it? Because the rest of us here understand wh.....no. You do it. You answer the question. Do you actually believe that people who get welfare drink more than they would without welfare, but with a good paying job?

It is no fucking wonder that Trump is president. All he had to do is make arguments like yours and the "if you hear banjos, paddle faster" crowd was stunned.
#14978091
Drlee wrote:My question is this. Is drinking naughty?

It is drinking alcohol to excess that is objectionable from the Christian point of view.

Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
(Proverbs 20:1)

Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
(Romans 13:13)

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,
(Ephesians 5:18)

Drlee wrote:Does someone like you who gets the biggest two welfare programs in the country, Social Security and Medicare, spend their money on booze and cigarettes? If not why not?

No, because I was raised better than that.
Medicaid is the welfare program. I get Social Security and Medicare because I qualified for it by paying in to the program for over 40 year previously. I also get military retirement because I qualified for it by my 20 years of service. The same goes for my Postal Service retirement. They are not welfare programs that are just given to someone for being poor and not working for them.

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
(2 THESSALONIANS 3:10)
#14978103
Drlee wrote:OD has a wonderful habit of not understanding what he is reading or picking something completely irrelevant to point to.

Like this:

The Mormon church is a semi-socialist organization. From Woman's Relief Society to Bishop's warehouse, Mormons are cared for by their church from cradle to grave. Crony employment is the order of the day for Mormons. Yet. They do not drink or smoke.

Bye argument.

Here One Degree. Did you read this in your article?



Maybe you forgot. No. Just trolling. Huh?

My question is this. Is drinking naughty? Does God hate it? Is that why it is bad for a welfare recipient to drink? Or maybe you hate the alcohol industry and are mad that they are getting money. Or maybe it is poverty that is naughty. Is that it? Welfare recipients should be punished by not allowing them to drink? How about eat a candy bar? Surly that is naughty too. Should welfare recipients not be allowed to own a television? That is naughty. And a computer. Poor kids do not need computers for homework. Only rich kids need that.

Hey One Degree. I have a question for you. You say that having money makes welfare recipients buy booze and cigarettes. You said it is the money that does this. Here is my question. I earn a shit-ton of money. I could literally buy a winery and cigarettes are pocket change. How come I drank way more when I had less money and smoked and now I drink way less and do not smoke at all yet I have a lot of money. Why is that? Did something go wrong in my case?

You like statistics. Here is one for you to explain. (Yes I am making fun of your absurd "statistics".)

Shoe machine operators are twice as likely to die of alcoholism than the average American.

Does someone like you who gets the biggest two welfare programs in the country, Social Security and Medicare, spend their money on booze and cigarettes? If not why not? If you had a point surely you can answer that.



Duh. Do you really not understand how absurd your question is? Or maybe it is what Hindsite said of Bernie Sandiers. ....low IQ? You modern "conservatives" seem to be enamored with it. Is that it? Because the rest of us here understand wh.....no. You do it. You answer the question. Do you actually believe that people who get welfare drink more than they would without welfare, but with a good paying job?

It is no fucking wonder that Trump is president. All he had to do is make arguments like yours and the "if you hear banjos, paddle faster" crowd was stunned.


Your rambling about irrelevancies is not an argument. No one said everyone on welfare is an alcoholic. Our society has a liberal bias. Research is used to justify it. I read several arguments about welfare only having a minimal effect in sub groups. Every single study was based upon asking people. The government’s study of 43,000 people was based upon going into recipients homes and asking them what benefits they received and how much they drank. Unless, you think welfare recipients are total idiots, they are going to be paranoid about such questions leading to them losing benefits. They will lie. Even without this obvious incentive, alcoholics are characterized by lying about their consumption. Despite this, we still see some evidence which means the reality must be worse.
The only place you get a true picture in our liberal propagandize society is where liberals face one of their many contradictions. They want to defend native Americans so they report accurate alcoholic figures and then try to excuse it through genetics. This is a ridiculous argument. Genetics do not force anyone to drink. Genetics did not make 80% of them unemployed. My example gave a strong correlation between not working and alcoholism to any reasonable person.
Are you arguing they are unemployed and alcoholics due to inferior genetics?
Are you arguing they are unemployed and alcoholics because their great grandparents hunting grounds were taken away?
There is no doubt in my mind being bored with an income increases the tendency to drink. I found it true in my own life and the knowledge allows me to fight the temptation. The simple fact is booze is about the cheapest entertainment. One poor people can afford. It is only common sense many will use it to combat their boredom.
We have no trouble accepting the bored rich house wife becomes an alcoholic. We have no problem with the reality of treatment centers for rich alcoholics due to boredom, stress, etc. There is no difference. Alcohol is used to escape our problems. Being unemployed is a serious problem. Not being able to afford most entertainment is a problem.
#14978112
Rich people because alcoholics, but poor people have a higher tendency towards alcohol abuse because they cannot afford fancy stress-relieving vacations. No one is arguing that poor people don't get drunk. We are arguing that they spend all their money on it, as even with higher rates of alcoholism among poor people on Welfare, it's still not approaching 15% of Welfare recipients.

You're on Welfare. Are you an alcoholic? (Yes, Social Security is a Welfare program, as is subsidized housing)

One Degree wrote:This is a ridiculous argument. Genetics do not force anyone to drink.
Yes, we know you don't believe in science, already. You don't have to assert this idiocy in every post you make.
#14978142
Godstud wrote:Rich people because alcoholics, but poor people have a higher tendency towards alcohol abuse because they cannot afford fancy stress-relieving vacations. No one is arguing that poor people don't get drunk. We are arguing that they spend all their money on it, as even with higher rates of alcoholism among poor people on Welfare, it's still not approaching 15% of Welfare recipients.

You're on Welfare. Are you an alcoholic? (Yes, Social Security is a Welfare program, as is subsidized housing)

Yes, we know you don't believe in science, already. You don't have to assert this idiocy in every post you make.


If we look to Native Americans, genetics obviously play a role in alcoholism. I'm on welfare (Social Security) and I hardly drink. If I was short on money I wouldn't drink at all. For folks with a little intelligence, alcohol is a luxury. Poor people are poor in the U.S. because they are stupid or lazy.
#14978312
Godstud wrote:You're on Welfare. Are you an alcoholic? (Yes, Social Security is a Welfare program, as is subsidized housing)

Only a small percentage of people receiving Social Security payments are receiving it as welfare. Most people receive Social Security payments as a retirement system which they contributed to by their payroll taxes. I get Social Security payments as retirement income because I qualified for it by paying in to the program for over 40 year previously.
#14978417
Stormsmith wrote:Let's not overlook the fact that alcoholism is a disease. Welfare doesn't cause it, full stop.


This doesn’t have much significance for our discussion really. Whether they are an alcoholic or a drunk isn’t the issue. Does not working with an income increase drinking?
#14978430
Pants-of-dog wrote:The evidence that has actually been quoted shows that people do not increase their drinking when provided with income when they are not working.


I already discredited this by showing it was based upon responses of people who had reasons not to be honest. Your own doctor will not take you at your word for how much alcohol you consume. This is something most people lie about.
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