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#15083588
Donna wrote:Image


Global capitalism loves the coronavirus, the upshot of all this is gonna be more consolidation of wealth and power for the capitalists. That's how capitalism has always worked, get a boom going where people create real assets and then blow out the economy and capture all those assets for pennies on the dollar.

That's the story of America, the peons turn a rugged wilderness into real estate through sweat and blood and then the banksters crash the economy and foreclose on it.



How do you call yourself a socialist and not understand how capitalism works?
#15083591
Profit from Crisis: Why capitalists do not want recovery, and what that means for America

After years of recession and sluggish growth, for many, an economic recovery is the light at the end of the tunnel that will lead to greater employment, higher income and perhaps less inequality. While conventional economic wisdom holds that capitalists should be just as anxious to see recovery as workers, Jonathan Nitzan and Shimshon Bichler argue that it is actually in capitalists’ interests to prolong the crisis, as their relative power increases in times of stagnation and unemployment. Using U.S. data from the past century, they find that when unemployment rises, capitalists can expect their share of income to rise in the years that follow. Unless society takes steps to decrease unemployment, capitalists are likely to continue to pursue stagnation for their own gain.

Can it be true that capitalists prefer crisis over growth? On the face of it, the idea sounds silly. According to Economics 101, everyone loves growth, especially capitalists. Profit and growth go hand in hand. When capitalists profit, real investment rises and the economy thrives, and when the economy booms the profits of capitalists soar. Growth is the very lifeline of capitalists.

Or is it?

What motivates capitalists?

The answer depends on what motivates capitalists. Conventional economic theories tell us that capitalists are hedonic creatures. Like all other economic “agents” – from busy managers and hectic workers to active criminals and idle welfare recipients – their ultimate goal is maximum utility. In order for them to achieve this goal, they need to maximize their profit and interest; and this income – like any other income – depends on economic growth. Conclusion: utility-seeking capitalists have every reason to love booms and hate crises.

But, then, are capitalists really motivated by utility? Is it realistic to believe that large American corporations are guided by the hedonic pleasure of their owners – or do we need a different starting point altogether?

So try this: in our day and age, the key goal of leading capitalists and corporations is not absolute utility but relative power. Their real purpose is not to maximize hedonic pleasure, but to “beat the average.” Their ultimate aim is not to consume more goods and services (although that happens too), but to increase their power over others. And the key measure of this power is their distributive share of income and assets.

Note that capitalists have no choice in this matter. “Beating the average” is not a subjective preference but a rigid rule, dictated and enforced by the conflictual nature of the system. Capitalism pits capitalists against other groups in society – as well as against each other. And in this multifaceted struggle for greater power, the yardstick is always relative. Capitalists – and the corporations they operate through – are compelled and conditioned to accumulate differentially; to augment not their personal utility but their relative earnings. Whether they are private owners like Warren Buffet or institutional investors like Bill Gross, they all seek not to perform but to out-perform – and outperformance means re-distribution. Capitalists who beat the average redistribute income and assets in their favor; this redistribution raises their share of the total; and a larger share of the total means greater power stacked against others. In the final analysis, capitalists accumulate not hedonic pleasure but differential power.

Now, if you look at capitalists through the lens of relative power, the notion that they should love growth and yearn for recovery is no longer self-evident. In fact, the very opposite seems to be the case. For any group to increase its relative power in society, that group must be able to strategically sabotage others in that society. This rule derives from the very logic of power relations. It means that capitalists, seeking to augment their income-share-read-power, have to threaten or undermine the rest of society. And one of the key weapons they use in this power struggle –sometimes conscientiously, though usually by default – is unemployment.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2014/ ... r-america/
#15083607
late wrote:In a recent survey of economists, not a single one was in favor of the gold standard.

That's obviously economic suicide.

So while you are waiving a Nobel economist around, you lack an understanding of economics.


89% of statistics are made up on the spot. Also 9 out of 10 cats prefer ebola over coronavirus.
#15083614
It is either cooperative international models being implemented? Or disaster predatory dog eat dog capitalism. If it is the latter. There will be angry, hungry and blood thirsty mobs and trying to contain them so you can keep your blood soaked body bag profits is going to be very very hard.

As for the anarchists in this thread? The purpose of anarchism is exactly criticizing the powers that be. It is a necessary and positive thing. Got to keep the spotlight on the authoritarian tendencies and examining their controlling proclamations for veracity.

I am an international socialist and a dedicated one. But, keeping the pressure on the abuses of government authority and power? Is of absolute necessity. Especially during crisis. Trump wants to open up the USA to business by May 1st. The Doctors say you need to stay in lockdown til testing and vaccines can be accelerated.

Again? You either cooperative as one group internationally solving big and complex problems that benefit all of humanity? Or you die cutting each others throats and let a small elite kill millions of people through callous disregard for famine, unemployment, lack of investment in other people and some kind of master race bullshit that is not about IMF style capitalism anymore.

It is our choice. I go for cooperation and mutual respect and equality.

If you go for selfish shit? Go out as a Covid 19 positive person and breathe on anyone you can find. You will be true to your inner nature.
#15083619
SolarCross wrote:
89% of statistics are made up on the spot.





"Behind this presumption, however, lie a number of logical non-sequiturs. First, other countries show little desire to stabilise their exchange rates, restored gold standard or not. They understand that different economic conditions justify the adoption of different monetary policies, which in turn requires exchange rates to move...

Second, gold is no longer a stable anchor. The dollar price of gold has fluctuated from $900 in 2009 to $1,900 in 2011 and back to $1,500 today. Having the Fed peg the price of gold in dollars would do nothing to peg its relative price – that is, the price of gold relative to the prices of other goods and services. For the relative price of gold to double, as it did between 2009 and 2011, consumer prices would have to fall by half, in a catastrophic deflation...

It might be argued that the volatility of the gold price reflects financial instability, which induces investors to rush into gold as a safe haven, and that the gold standard will produce a more stable financial environment. But there is no historical basis for this notion. Financial crises were a recurrent phenomenon under the gold standard. That is no mystery: having to stabilise the price of gold severely limited the ability of central banks to act as lenders of last resort to distressed financial systems. Instability frequently followed.

In short, arguments for a gold standard and pegged exchange rates are deeply flawed. But there is a silver lining, as it were: nothing along these lines is going to happen..."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/15/trump-foolish-think-gold-standard-age-fed-nominee-pegged-rates
#15083654
late wrote:"Behind this presumption, however, lie a number of logical non-sequiturs. First, other countries show little desire to stabilise their exchange rates, restored gold standard or not. They understand that different economic conditions justify the adoption of different monetary policies, which in turn requires exchange rates to move...

Second, gold is no longer a stable anchor. The dollar price of gold has fluctuated from $900 in 2009 to $1,900 in 2011 and back to $1,500 today. Having the Fed peg the price of gold in dollars would do nothing to peg its relative price – that is, the price of gold relative to the prices of other goods and services. For the relative price of gold to double, as it did between 2009 and 2011, consumer prices would have to fall by half, in a catastrophic deflation...

It might be argued that the volatility of the gold price reflects financial instability, which induces investors to rush into gold as a safe haven, and that the gold standard will produce a more stable financial environment. But there is no historical basis for this notion. Financial crises were a recurrent phenomenon under the gold standard. That is no mystery: having to stabilise the price of gold severely limited the ability of central banks to act as lenders of last resort to distressed financial systems. Instability frequently followed.

In short, arguments for a gold standard and pegged exchange rates are deeply flawed. But there is a silver lining, as it were: nothing along these lines is going to happen..."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/15/trump-foolish-think-gold-standard-age-fed-nominee-pegged-rates

Comparing the gold market now to the condition of gold during the post-WW2 gold-exchange standard seems like an apples and oranges exercise. After the GES was abandoned the price of gold soared and also became very volatile in a way previously absent. What were the proximate mechanisms? I don't know. For instance, did it have anything to do on the prohibition of US citizens to own or trade in gold anywhere in the world, and other such controls?

Above is speculation based on rather simple observations. This is not only me being lazy, there doesn't tend to be a lot of research on these sorts of topics; for some reason understanding about money is seemingly regarded as a subversive act in polite company, perhaps especially so among economists (rather paradoxically if you ask me). The only study of money I recall from my economics education was probably just the fairytales the teach about what the Fed supposedly is and does.
#15083657
Crantag wrote:
Comparing the gold market now to the condition of gold during the post-WW2 gold-exchange standard seems like an apples and oranges exercise. After the GES was abandoned the price of gold soared and also became very volatile in a way previously absent. What were the proximate mechanisms? I don't know. For instance, did it have anything to do on the prohibition of US citizens to own or trade in gold anywhere in the world, and other such controls?

Above is speculation based on rather simple observations. This is not only me being lazy, there doesn't tend to be a lot of research on these sorts of topics; for some reason understanding about money is seemingly regarded as a subversive act in polite company, perhaps especially so among economists (rather paradoxically if you ask me). The only study of money I recall from my economics education was probably just the fairytales the teach about what the Fed supposedly is and does.



My interest in this is the history.

We set up Bretton Woods to punish those that were fiscally imprudent. It was a great system, but when we were fiscally imprudent, there was a run on our gold. That forced us off the gold standard, and that broke the core of the Bretton Wood agreements.

After that, the prohibition didn't make sense, and was ended in 1974.
#15083663
Here's the thing. USA, China, Russia, EU all see this as an opportunity. They will bail out all of these small nations, and in return, they will get access to resources and cheap labor they can all exploit the shit out out of.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.
#15083668
Rancid wrote:Here's the thing. USA, China, Russia, EU all see this as an opportunity. They will bail out all of these small nations, and in return, they will get access to resources and cheap labor they can all exploit the shit out out of.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.


Russia is the only exception here.
their economy is too weak to bail others
Ruble is worhtless and their foreign reserves are expected to be reduced drastically in coming months
#15083671
Zionist Nationalist wrote:
Russia is the only exception here.
their economy is too weak to bail others
Ruble is worhtless and their foreign reserves are expected to be reduced drastically in coming months


True, but the wealthy oligarchs can get in on the private investment scene, at the very least. When you have to deal with weak/corrupt developing world governments, that's not hard to do.
#15083687
Rancid wrote:True, but the wealthy oligarchs can get in on the private investment scene, at the very least. When you have to deal with weak/corrupt developing world governments, that's not hard to do.


Rancid, there is only so much abuse many nations who are in dire straits will ever tolerate Rancid. They will hit bottom and the banks without people to live off comfortably? Will fail darling.

Without the cooperation of the weak nations? There is no real power to take over and force.

People now know how to do a mass noncooperation scheme. Stay home and boycott economic activity until the assholes finally give in. Eat basic food items, grow a back yard garden and to hell with cooperating. Gandhi did it to get rid of the UK dominance in India. It is tough but it can be done.

I don't think people are going to be allowing such abuses anymore Rancid. The excuses of we don't want to sponsor universal health care at all? With this pandemic are weak.
#15083698
Tainari88 wrote:
Rancid, there is only so much abuse many nations who are in dire straits will ever tolerate Rancid. They will hit bottom and the banks without people to live off comfortably? Will fail darling.

Without the cooperation of the weak nations? There is no real power to take over and force.

People now know how to do a mass noncooperation scheme. Stay home and boycott economic activity until the assholes finally give in. Eat basic food items, grow a back yard garden and to hell with cooperating. Gandhi did it to get rid of the UK dominance in India. It is tough but it can be done.

I don't think people are going to be allowing such abuses anymore Rancid. The excuses of we don't want to sponsor universal health care at all? With this pandemic are weak.


I hear it all, and sorry if I'm a cynic, but.... all of that doesn't matter. The big exploiters will exploit, one way, or another. Doesn't matter what the people of the exploited nations think/want. If they can't exploit external peoples, they will exploit there own.... like India. ;)

With India, sure, maybe they aren't directly exploited by other nations, I'll give you that. Still, India, has tons of corruption and cronyism, even without the British. It's why they have not been able to be much of a rival to China in the region. They are mired in their own political squabbles, corruptions, etc. etc. They also still have millions in poverty. Internally, there's all sorts of exploitation going one.
#15083741
Rancid wrote:I hear it all, and sorry if I'm a cynic, but.... all of that doesn't matter. The big exploiters will exploit, one way, or another. Doesn't matter what the people of the exploited nations think/want. If they can't exploit external peoples, they will exploit there own.... like India. ;)

With India, sure, maybe they aren't directly exploited by other nations, I'll give you that. Still, India, has tons of corruption and cronyism, even without the British. It's why they have not been able to be much of a rival to China in the region. They are mired in their own political squabbles, corruptions, etc. etc. They also still have millions in poverty. Internally, there's all sorts of exploitation going one.


Rancid, the reality is that all of the nations of the world face very similar challenges. I think being class based and believing in castes and money makes you better dumb schemes opens you up to cooperating in some scheme to pauper and exploit. How long as a species are we going to accept it?

I happen to think that the Earth is busting a move for removing large percentages of human beings from the Earth. Whether it is with unleashing pandemics, Cat 5 Super storms (hurricanes, tsunamis), and many other things out of the human controls. And how we cope with each other is going to determine what happens with our cities, our economies and our civilizations Rancid. Because what this pandemic has exposed is how unjust it is to think that the problems of the others outside of your social circles doesn't MATTER at all. This pandemic exposes how connected the human race is. It exposes how vulnerable and fragile our ability to overcome nature is. It exposes how damn ridiculous it is to believe we own this world and that somehow Nature has to do what we want.

How stupid it is to believe that death is not going to come someday for all of us. But we got to stop the immature shit Rancid. You either use the group to exploit and abuse? Or you use the group to connect and to cooperate? Something like, I am not an engineer, but I know Rancid is....if I got a problem who you gonna call? I am not a nuclear physicist or an expert on Russian films from the 1930;s? Who will I call when I need some clarification on that? @Potemkin. I don't know about computer programming. @blackjack21 does. Lol. And so on....the group is powerful only if all are cooperating and using the differences to support each other when a difficult situation arises.

If we only can fight and hate and be selfish? And that is all we are capable of darling Rancid?

Then let the illnesses arise, let the storms and the breakdown of life as we know it on planet Earth come....for us. Let the planet take back the salt in our blood and the iron in my heart, and the elements which created our relationship with this beautiful planet....and let it go on and give us extinction NOW. Don't try to preserve a failed species that never tried to overcome its selfish exploitation of the only place that has seen our passing lives, and our birth and our deaths.

Like a great artist unhappy with a failed art project? Let the Earth break us into a million pieces and start anew with a species that is not that stupid and immature Rancid. Let it start the process anew. It still has another 6 billion years to start over.

I happen to know we can do better. It is all up to each of us to decide that being selfish and exploiting is not the best path forward and want something better. All positive change at the beginning is hard. You have to consciously choose something that is scary because it is the Great Unknown. Capitalism is familiar to all of us. It is our comfort food. But it is killing us. Time to make a change soon. Because planet is a loop system indeed. And it is a living thing. That is why we are alive Rancid. Because as the Mayans know.....el maiz....es la vida. If you kill the source of all our being here? No need to struggle. Let it come and no resistance. We agree that there is no hope.

Hope requires struggle Rancid. Life is about struggle. Evolutionary theory you know! :) ;)
#15083836
Crantag wrote:Comparing the gold market now to the condition of gold during the post-WW2 gold-exchange standard seems like an apples and oranges exercise. After the GES was abandoned the price of gold soared and also became very volatile in a way previously absent. What were the proximate mechanisms? I don't know. For instance, did it have anything to do on the prohibition of US citizens to own or trade in gold anywhere in the world, and other such controls?

Above is speculation based on rather simple observations. This is not only me being lazy, there doesn't tend to be a lot of research on these sorts of topics; for some reason understanding about money is seemingly regarded as a subversive act in polite company, perhaps especially so among economists (rather paradoxically if you ask me). The only study of money I recall from my economics education was probably just the fairytales the teach about what the Fed supposedly is and does.


During the gold standard the price of gold in dollars was obviously fixed. The US made sure of that by buying/selling gold. In the end the US simply ran out of gold.

Nothing "subversive" about it.
#15083902
Rugoz wrote:During the gold standard the price of gold in dollars was obviously fixed. The US made sure of that by buying/selling gold. In the end the US simply ran out of gold.

Nothing "subversive" about it.

You mean the gold exchange standard.

Yes, I'm going to keep correcting people. The Gold Standard was tied to the British pound and collapsed in WW1. The Gold Exchange Standard was formed by Bretton Words and 1944, and was tied to the US dollar.

But the real reason I replied, 'subversive' in the context I used it was just a throw away term. I was talking about studying money. Few in economics seem to really take the study of money seriously. Money is usually just treated as a given, with its management the arcane providence of central banks. (In my perception.)
#15084015
Crantag wrote:But the real reason I replied, 'subversive' in the context I used it was just a throw away term. I was talking about studying money. Few in economics seem to really take the study of money seriously. Money is usually just treated as a given, with its management the arcane providence of central banks. (In my perception.)


Central banks are important employers and monetary policy an important topic in academia. I don't perceive it as arcane at all.
#15084020
Sivad wrote:That's the story of America, the peons turn a rugged wilderness into real estate through sweat and blood and then the banksters crash the economy and foreclose on it.


In what way did capitalists cause the coronavirus lockdown?

Yet another careless statement that Sivad-on-the-Spot will be unable to rectify.
#15084035
Donna wrote:In what way did capitalists cause the coronavirus lockdown?


What in the cloud of crack smoke? Where did I say capitalists caused the coronvirus lockdown? I never said anything like that, not even close to that. Which is why you didn't quote me directly.

Yet another careless statement that Sivad-on-the-Spot will be unable to rectify.


Yet another cracked out pofo statement that Donna-on-the-Pipe will be unable to verify.

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