[Puffer Fish]

excerpt from talk Bill Maher gave on his show:

San Francisco, which is unfortunately the poop capital of the world, wanted to build a single public outdoor toilet. The bid came in at $1.7 million, for a toilet. And it would take three years to build.

Then a company came along and said "You know what, I'm going to donate and pay for the installation." So donation of the thing itself, and installation. Oh, there you save $1.7 million. "No."

This is the problem I have with government. The cost said -- and this is according to the San Francisco Chronicle -- isn't the project, it's the "project management". It will still cost $1.2 million. Even though the thing itself and the installation was free. Why? Construction management, engineering fees, permits, civic design review, surveys, contract preparation, cost estimate. This is the b(*)(*)(*)s(*)(*)(*) I'd say that sucks all the money out of America. ​

Bandit 7878 (@banditgio171) | TikTok
video here

Stossel had a similar story on the cost of a bathroom in New York City.

Stossel: $2 Million Bathroom - YouTube, Reason TV

"Here it is. This little building is a two million dollar bathroom. $2 million? I had to check it out. I was expecting gold plated fixtures. It's just a toilet, a couple urinals, 2 sinks.
$2 million dollars?
Do the people who use the park know what taxpayers paid for their bathroom?
What should something like this cost?" (he interviews several random people in the park)
"A couple thousand."
"$70,000?"
"Approximately $100,000, maybe."
"They spent $2 million dollars."
"For this? Unbelievable."

"You could buy a nice house here for $2 million dollars.
This nearby house was advertised for much less. It has 6 bedrooms!"

"In the millions, for this? This is ridiculous."
"Where's the money go?"

"Good question. Everything costs more when government builds it. Government spends more because every decision is tied up in endless rules.
Minority outreach. Wheelchair access. Zoning rules."

"Your department puts out a statement current estimate to build a new bathroom is 3 million dollars."
"It is now approaching in some cases going over 3 million."
"Mitchell Silver is New York's Parks Commissioner."
"So $2 million was a good deal here?"
"$2 million was a good deal. We built these comfort stations to last."
"But you can buy whole houses in that neighborhood for less than what you spent on this bathroom."
"I hear that point often. And if you look at the material we use compared to a home these are very, very durable material."

"But this bathroom is made of durable materials too. It’s so beautiful that a newspaper said it might be the fanciest in New York. Yet it cost one fifth as much as much. Why? Because it's in nearby Bryant Park, and Bryant Park is privately managed. Bryant Park built one with just as many sinks and toilets for a fifth the price."

Yet another reason government work costs more is that government pays more."
"We pay prevailing wage."
"Prevailing wage turns out to mean union wages. Sometimes more than 100 dollars an hour."
"This is a city that does believe strongly in labor."
"That makes everything cost more. And when we watched the workers didn’t seem to work very hard.
The final reason this so much is that it took years to build it. It took less time to build the Empire state building."
"Why does it take you 3 years to build a bathroom?"
"We have a process that includes design, procurement and construction. Ours because it's a public project we believe very strongly in engaging the public..."
Engaging the public means things like the city planning department's 'uniform land use review procedure'. Try doing something quickly while following these rules.

"Clearly the private sector does not have to go through the same process."
"And this is a good thing, the public process? All these meetings?"
"Oh yes it’s a good thing."
"That's a ridiculous amount of money."

One little building $2 million dollars. That's government at work."

[Saeko]

And what is the cost of having poop everywhere?

[Potemkin]

And what is the cost of having poop everywhere?

@Puffer Fish is just defending his God-given freedom to rape women and poop wherever he pleases. What are you, some sorta feminazi nanny-state commie killjoy?

[Puffer Fish]

And what is the cost of having poop everywhere?

How about if those super progressive cities change their laws and ways of doing things so that it will not cost 2 million dollars to build a small public bathroom?

The point was that it should not cost this much. It's completely ridiculous when those bathrooms cost $1.7 million or $2 million.

[Saeko]

How about if those super progressive cities change their laws and ways of doing things so that it will not cost 2 million dollars to build a small public bathroom?

The point was that it should not cost this much. It's completely ridiculous when those bathrooms cost $1.7 million or $2 million.

So you want the government to implement price controls on private contractors?

[Patrickov]

Public bathroom is about public health so if making it more fail-safe costs significantly more I am not entirely against it.

That said, maintenance and management is equally important.

[Puffer Fish]

So you want the government to implement price controls on private contractors?

You don't get it.

The contractors are unable to offer lower prices, because their prices have to take into account the cost of complying with all the government rules.

No private contractor is going to offer a lower bid because it wouldn't be worth it to them. All the headache of complying with all the rules, all the time and delays caused by the required process in the rules.
A contractor would have to be stupid to offer a lower bid.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

What exactly are these rules that make it so expensive?

Please be specific.

[Istanbuller]

This is another good example of how inefficient the state is. Free market is superior to it.

[Steve_American]

This is another good example of how inefficient the state is. Free market is superior to it.

Is the Turkish free market better?

After the recent erthquake, I saw video of cities where (it looked like) hslf the apartment buildins still stood, but half had fallen into rubble traping survivors and killing many.

The families of the dead likely don't think much of the system that lets builders build the bldg that fell on their family and killed them, when other bldg didn't fall down.

But, in the US it ought to be cheaper to do things. MMT allows this by letting the states have free money as US Gov. grants to pay for the paper work to regulate such things. The problem is in part that neo-liberalism requires the states to pay for things with taxes or fees. In the case of these toilets it is fees.
.

[Puffer Fish]

Is the Turkish free market better?
After the recent erthquake, I saw video of cities where (it looked like) hslf the apartment buildins still stood, but half had fallen into rubble traping survivors and killing many.
The families of the dead likely don't think much of the system that lets builders build the bldg that fell on their family and killed them, when other bldg didn't fall down.

I'll concede that if the Turkish government had built those buildings, they would probably not have cut corners compromising safety. However, I doubt the government would have been able to be build enough buildings for all those people, if they were put in charge of the same amount of money. What typically would end up happening is you'd have shortages, and people would be put on waiting lists for housing.
Probably the reason government in this situation did not pay more attention to safety and more stringently enforce regulations is because it is a poor country. Well, at least it's not really a high standard of living country in many of the country's provinces. The leaders know the people are poor and will be difficult to subject the builders to all sorts of regulations and strict oversight, because that raises prices, and many of those people already struggle to afford building housing. In these sort of countries, the bigger concern is about whether the poor will even be able to have housing, not so much if that housing will be able to hold up in an earthquake.
Putting government in charge of building all the housing would also further centralise power, and in a country like Turkey that may not be a good such a good thing. Anytime government has power, that power can be abused. One could easily imagine people on political blacklists being blacklisted from housing wait lists. Or with all the corruption, a lot of that money earmarked for housing might just be siphoned off to something else.

you can also read this related thread: "Housing in Communist economies" (posted in Socialism section, Dec 17, 2022)
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=183093

[Puffer Fish]

What exactly are these rules that make it so expensive?

Please be specific.

Several were already mentioned in the copied text excerpts in the opening post.

If you're not willing to read the opening post and use some of your own brainpower to understand how those things might increase costs, then I'm not going to give you anything more.

[Pants-of-dog]

Several were already mentioned in the copied text excerpts in the opening post.

If you're not willing to read the opening post and use some of your own brainpower to understand how those things might increase costs, then I'm not going to give you anything more.

The OP mentioned "Construction management, engineering fees, permits, civic design review, surveys, contract preparation, cost estimate."

None of these are different from any other construction project, public or private.

Now, which of these is unnecessary?

[Puffer Fish]

The OP mentioned "Construction management, engineering fees, permits, civic design review, surveys, contract preparation, cost estimate."

None of these are different from any other construction project, public or private.

I don't think you understand. Different places impose different types of rules. When it comes to buildings commissioned by the city, sometimes all sorts of special additional rules and procedures apply. A big progressive city like New York or San Francisco that has been around for a long time has, over the years, created all sorts of additional requirements.

It's easier to do a construction project in some places than others.

Now, which of these is unnecessary?

And that's the thing. Progressives insist that all their rules are necessary. Except each rule ends up adding additional cost and all those burdens add up, finally creating a very big total burden that's hard to deny.

I'd say probably those public/city reviews are one of the big things that add cost, because they delay the time between when a bid is placed and accepted and when the construction can begin. Imagine in any other private business model where you have to agree and commit to something 3 or 4 years into the future.

[Pants-of-dog]

…..
I'd say probably those public/city reviews are one of the big things that add cost, because they delay the time between when a bid is placed and accepted and when the construction can begin. Imagine in any other private business model where you have to agree and commit to something 3 or 4 years into the future.

The review does not happen during the bidding process. The design review happens right before bidding. The purpose is to review the design to ensure it follows the building code and zoning regulations.

How is this unnecessary?