[SolarCross]

You are diverting.

You are completely ignoring the point that workplaces are regulated in order to ensure worker safety. Instead of looking at the actual point, you are trying to divert people's attention to the (irrelevant) fact that regulatory agencies charge fines for non-compliance.

KILL 'EM!! KILL 'EM ALL!!

Coming to a bureaucracy near you, soon

[Pants-of-dog]

Taxizen, you have completely avoided making any sort of argument based on anything. All you are doing is throwing out cheap insults.

When you have something to say about the externalities associated with automobile use, I will respond. Until then, I will ignore these diversionary posts of yours.

[SolarCross]

Taxizen, you have completely avoided making any sort of argument based on anything. All you are doing is throwing out cheap insults.

When you have something to say about the externalities associated with automobile use, I will respond. Until then, I will ignore these diversionary posts of yours.

So now what I have to pay you $4000 or something, fill out a book thick form in triplicate, have a cognitive monitoring device surgically implanted into my cranium and all will be forgiven until next time I mysteriously owe you money.


You didn't fill out the form properly, hand over your money!


Whoops somebody parked on a double yellow line.


Actually I do not believe that today I will be paying you any money. Good day Mzz Bureaucrat.

[Rancid]

I think Americans like to be watched.

Seriously though, all car drivers are potential murders and drunk drivers, thus we should monitor all drivers at all times.

[Joe Liberty]

What if the technology was outside the car?
Like speed cameras and traffic light cameras and CCTV?

Well, traffic light cameras have been shown to increase accidents at intersections (in part because enterprising city councils have reduced the times of yellow lights to catch more $$$). Speed cameras are nothing but a revenue generator.

Some of you are pretending that these measures prevent accidents, but they don't (and in the case of red light cameras, they have the opposite effect). As one poster mentioned, the best they can do is provide more data for an after-the-fact investigation. So the argument about this stuff being regulation that will prevent deaths is absurd.

Follow the money, whether it's heading into the pockets of the state (speeding tickets) or the insurance companies (collecting data to use for calculating rates and coverage). It helps to be a bit more cynical: when a politician or a cop tells you that something is for your own good, it's usually for their own good instead.

[Pants-of-dog]

While I disagree with Joe Liberty about one point (I think they will increase safety), I do agree with Joe's implied claim that these measures should not be used if they do not actually improve safety.

Studies show that traffic light cameras do not actually improve safety, so they are a waste of money, except as way of bringing money to municipalities and the people who sell these cameras.

[AFAIK]

Some European countries use cameras connected to digital signs that display a smiley face to people within the speed limit and a frowning face to those breaking the speed limit. These were found to be more effective than fining speeders. Some of them are connected to traffic lights and turn the light green for drivers within the limit and leave it red for speeders.

Or you can get rid of signals altogether and let people navigate the roads using their brains.

[Zagadka]

We have digital displays on some streets that automatically clock your speed and show you. I think that is also more effective.

I've been ticketed twice by the same camera-light, both times were errors and it was just a waste of time for me and the city... you just go down to the courthouse to contest it, and they just dismiss almost every case because it would take too long to process everyone (there were like 100 people at the court to protest tickets).

[Godstud]

They have second counters on Thai streetlights, so you know exactly how long you are sitting at the lights. I think it helps people. It also helps you make lights and time your driving properly, so you catch lights without speeding.

[Zagadka]

They have second counters on Thai streetlights, so you know exactly how long you are sitting at the lights. I think it helps people. It also helps you make lights and time your driving properly, so you catch lights without speeding.

Most studies I've seen show that when people know the timer, there are more incidents... like where there are timers for pedestrians.

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/01/327199161 ... onsequence

Drivers can see the timer too and as the timer starts winding down to two or three seconds the driver knows the traffic light is about to turn red and that makes some of them speed up to get through the intersection.

...

I spoke with Arvind Magesan, he's a researcher at the University of Calgary. And along with his co-author, Sacha Kapoor, they looked at the effect of installing these countdown timers at nearly 1,800 intersections in the city of Toronto. Now, the news is not all bad. The timers lowered the number of accidents involving pedestrians. In other words, when people know how much time they have to get across the intersection, it helps them get across safely or decide not to start in the first place. But the timers also increase collisions between cars.

[AFAIK]

They have second counters on Thai streetlights, so you know exactly how long you are sitting at the lights. I think it helps people. It also helps you make lights and time your driving properly, so you catch lights without speeding.

I love these. If I'm approaching a red light and there's 90 seconds on the clock I pull over in a shady spot, turn off the engine and chill. Much nicer than sitting in the blazing hot sun whilst i wait and watch the light.

Most studies I've seen show that when people know the timer, there are more incidents... like where there are timers for pedestrians.

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/01/327199161 ... onsequence

In Cambodia when the green light reaches zero seconds the amber light comes on for 1-3 seconds (depending on the size of the junction). People speeding through green lights at the last second sounds no more or less dangerous than speeding through amber lights.

Are there any videos of these lights?

[Godstud]

I love these. If I'm approaching a red light and there's 90 seconds on the clock I pull over in a shady spot, turn off the engine and chill. Much nicer than sitting in the blazing hot sun whilst i wait and watch the light.

QFT! That's what I do, too.

I think the people who run red lights do so regardless of whether there is a counter, or not. Perhaps they are just on more dangerous intersection, to begin with?

[DrSteveBrule]

I think Americans like to be watched.

Seriously though, all car drivers are potential murders and drunk drivers, thus we should monitor all drivers at all times.

All people are potential traitors. Thus, people should be monitored at all times too

Honestly, this sounds like a good old cash grab and a step closer to 1984 to me. Speed legislation has always been about profits, not safety. If the govt really cared about highway safety then
1) Why do cops hide behind trees and walls when checking for speed?
2) Why are speed limits absurdly low in most states?
3) Why not crack down on distracted driving instead, which is shown to be a major cause of accidents?
4) Why does the autobahn, which has several unregulated speed zones, end up safer than most EU highways?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ents_.html

[Godstud]

Most of Germany has no speed limits(according to ze German friend I have here), and they don't seem to have more accidents.

[AFAIK]

1) Why do cops hide behind trees and walls when checking for speed?

So that drivers don't know which trees have police and err on the side of caution by driving slowly all the time (at least in theory).

2) Why are speed limits absurdly low in most states?

To keep stopping distances within a safe limit. Also low speed limits are sometimes enforced to maintain traffic flow. Slow and steady is preferable to stop and start conditions. Perhaps noise and air pollution are concerns as well.

3) Why not crack down on distracted driving instead, which is shown to be a major cause of accidents?

Harder to enforce.

4) Why does the autobahn, which has several unregulated speed zones, end up safer than most EU highways?

It's very highly engineered at great expense. To build roads that straight, flat and deep is incredibly expensive. Also all Germans have to perform autobahn driving as part of the driving test. Not all countries require this.

Most of Germany has no speed limits(according to ze German friend I have here), and they don't seem to have more accidents.

Only limited sections of the autobahn have no speed limits.

[Zagadka]

Most of Germany has no speed limits(according to ze German friend I have here), and they don't seem to have more accidents.

I am a fairly... aggressive driver. If you taped over my speedometer as set me loose on a decent highway in normal weather, I tend to average around 85-90 mph (that is about 140 kph in logical units) naturally. I tend to temper my speed based on who I can hurt... if it is just me, fuck it, but if there are many other drivers I go with the flow of traffic. I've always been jealous of some of the European roads with their more useful limits.

What pisses me off most is 1) slow ass drivers, especially if they are going the same slow speed as the people in the next lane. Merge into it, damnit. And 2) people who swerve constantly between lanes. This is what causes most traffic. Get in a comfy lane and stay there.

[DrSteveBrule]

So that drivers don't know which trees have police and err on the side of caution by driving slowly all the time (at least in theory).

http://venturebeat.com/2012/10/17/hacke ... c-tickets/

If departments wanted people to drive safely 24/7, then speed enforcement would be conducted on a regular basis and consistently enforced. However, the fact that state police departments
1) Have quotas
2) Enforce speed limits very loosely (ex : some officers may only ticket for 10 over or more, and PBA cards can get you off with a warning)
3) Enforce limits infrequently (source indicates more tickets are issued at the end of the month)

Means that the use of speed enforcement traps and low speed limits is primarily motivated by revenue, not safety. If safety is the first priority, speed limits would be enforced tightly and on a consistent basis. Those individuals that choose to drive at significantly higher speeds will simply negate the surprise advantage through the purchase of a radar detector. Thus, these traps mainly target the majority of motorists who drive safely, yet are technically breaking the law due to cash grabbing regulations.

To keep stopping distances within a safe limit. Also low speed limits are sometimes enforced to maintain traffic flow. Slow and steady is preferable to stop and start conditions. Perhaps noise and air pollution are concerns as well.

Traffic flow due to differences in speed could be resolved if slower traffic were required to move to the right lanes, and faster traffic was directed to the left lanes. It isnt a law in most states, but it should be done out of courtesy (despite what prius drivers and octogenarians do). Also, stopping distances are less important than keeping a proper amount of space between the vehicle in front. The only instance in which stopping distances would be disparate enough to cause a collision is when the vehicle behind travels faster than the vehicle in front.

[Torus34]

An octogenarian, I drive at or very slightly below the posted speed limits. I've no interest in paying a ticket and have learned to leave a tad early if need be to compensate for traffic problems on the way. I also keep to the right except to pass.

That said, I have noted that the vast majority of cars on the road drive above the speed limit. This group, I suspect, contains some of the self-righteous types who are;

1) gun owners claiming that gun ownership by 'law-abiding citizens' is an American right and/or

2) folks who claim that law-breakers such as those who violate the law by crossing the border without the proper papers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Huh? [Ed.: How do you spell 'hypocritical'?]

[DrSteveBrule]

An octogenarian, I drive at or very slightly below the posted speed limits. I've no interest in paying a ticket and have learned to leave a tad early if need be to compensate for traffic problems on the way. I also keep to the right except to pass.

That said, I have noted that the vast majority of cars on the road drive above the speed limit. This group, I suspect, contains some of the self-righteous types who are;

1) gun owners claiming that gun ownership by 'law-abiding citizens' is an American right and/or

2) folks who claim that law-breakers such as those who violate the law by crossing the border without the proper papers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Huh? [Ed.: How do you spell 'hypocritical'?]

Not sure how gun rights or immigration policies play into the debate about speed limits. However, I doubt that the majority of people who speed support gun rights or stricter immigration laws.

My apologies if my remarks meant in jest have struck a nerve with elderly individuals, but it is a fact that older people do tend to be the ones who cruise at the left lane at low speeds. Not all of them do, but many do.

Driving at a reasonable speed that keeps up with the flow of traffic and is appropriate for the condition is hardly self righteous. Most individuals drive at the speed at which they are able to safely operate the vehicle, which has been steadily increasing due to advances in safety technology. Cars today can travel faster than the cars of the 60s and 70s due to features such as stability control, airbags, power assisted steering and improved crash safety. The fact is that in most states, the law does not reflect this trend. The increase in speed limits nowadays is well below the threshold of safe operation for fairly modern vehicles.

[Rancid]

THe commends made by Torus are insanely crazy. Yes, I know saying "insanely crazy" is rather redundant. I did that on purpose.