[Diving Carrot]

France and Germany are forging an alliance with Russia in order to dominate together Europe.

IMO it is rather that French and German goverments are so shortseeing to see benefits from beeing soft against Russia. Unfortunately at the same time they feel themself to be in position to tell everybody else what to do or at least not to listen to enybody.

[Diving Carrot]

They didn't met their economic objective because they used to spend so much to support the EU when other countries didn't.

They didn't met their economic objective because they spend so much to support their 35 hours working week, unemplyment benefits which encourage to remain unemployed or other megasocialist creatures which they can not afford to.

[Foxwood]

You are from France, I am from Poland. I don't see countries that have completely different attitude to terrorism, independence of my country to be leaders of Europe, especially as they try to create an alliance with de-facto dictatorship.

Its an economic alliance just like we have alliances with the countries of the Middle East.

Then UK will have to forge alliances with countries similiary concerned with the attempt to create Franco-Germania with Russia as its policeman.

UK just wanted to keep its national supremacy, they wanted to be a passive member of the EU. It had nothing to do with Russia or going against France and Germany. And Russia is still very far from being the policeman of Europe. Very far.

We Poles know too well what happens when Russia and Germany work together against others.

Don't you think that Germany and Russia nowadays are a little different than from the Germany and Russia of 1940 ?

[Shade2]

. And Russia is still very far from being the policeman of Europe. Very far.

And getting closer there with help of French of Germany.
Its already bullying Poland,Ukraine,Estonia,Lithuania,Latvia,Georgia, Belarus.

Don't you think that Germany and Russia nowadays are a little different than from the Germany and Russia of 1940 ?

Sure, they now trying to dominate other countries by economic and political means.

[Foxwood]

Its already bullying Poland,Ukraine,Estonia,Lithuania,Latvia,Georgia, Belarus.

Russia ever stopped? They don't need France / Germany to do so.

Sure, they now trying to dominate other countries by economic and political means.

Isn't that what globalisation, individualism and more widely capitalism is all about? Look at the US, they dominate the whole fucking world !

[Shade2]

Russia ever stopped? They don't need France / Germany to do so.

They certainly have it easier with German support.

Look at the US, they dominate the whole fucking world !

How terrible, where is France to the rescue ?
But seriously it is a good thing, USA helped us to regain freedom and end Soviet occupation, while French debated speeches of Lenin and idolosing the image of Russia.
I see no reason why Poland should oppose USA's leadership and prefer German and Russian one. Do you ?

[Foxwood]

But seriously it is a good thing, USA helped us to regain freedom and end Soviet occupation, while French debated speeches of Lenin and idolosing the image of Russia.

Rofl, so you saying being dominated by a certain country is ok but by another is not?
Just FYI, the US were the N1 enemy of Russia. They were the two superpowers fighting to establish their way of life to the world, communism vs capitalism. They really didn't fought them to "help you regain freedom". I trully believe they didn't care one bit for your guys, or maybe they thought you were potential consumers of coca-cola.

US fought Russia to establish themselves as leader of the world, and moreover as the "good" leaders of the world, not to save Poland...

Well of course, since the Soviet Union is no more, they have shown to be not so good leaders but hey, you're right, blame it on Germany and France.

I see no reason why Poland should oppose USA's leadership and prefer German and Russian one. Do you ?

I don't but I find it both paranoid and unfounded to think that Russia could dominate any country over the USA today.

[Shade2]

Rofl, so you saying being dominated by a certain country is ok but by another is not?

Well if you can't distinguish differences between Soviet occupation and having alliance with USA then I guess it shows the kind of problems people in France have. USA has brought us freedom, prosperity and security, under Soviet occupation we had hunger, poverty and hundreds of thousands were mass murdered.

They were the two superpowers fighting to establish their way of life to the world, communism vs capitalism.

In other words between a regime that mass murdered thousands in Katyn, devestated Poland, made us eat oranges for Christmas only and made thieves steal toilet paper, versus a political system that made oranges every day food, doesn't mass murder our citizens, and has electricity shortages.

maybe they thought you were potential consumers of coca-cola.

Ah coca-cola-I still remember how dreamed about it under communism and the junk we had to drink then. Back in those days you only needed a pen from USA and were king of the school if you were a kid

US fought Russia to establish themselves as leader of the world, and moreover as the "good" leaders of the world, not to save Poland...

But saved Poland they did, so I have no reason to complain.And I might add that it wasn't the first time USA stood for Poland. After all it was Woodrow Wilson that made independence of Poland one of points of surrender in WW1.
While France believed Poland should part of Russian Empire.

Well of course, since the Soviet Union is no more, they have shown to be not so good leaders

Yes, like when it was there was any doubt they are "good leaders" by mass murdering milions and having every possible shortage except perhaps steel for tanks.

but hey, you're right, blame it on Germany and France.

USA actively supported independence movement for Poland. German and French politicians recommended Poles to seek compromise with Soviet Union and supported to ruling puppet government.

but I find it both paranoid and unfounded to think that Russia could dominate any country over the USA today.

That is why it is seeking alliance with France and Germany.

[Foxwood]

Well if you can't distinguish differences between Soviet occupation and having alliance with USA then I guess it shows the kind of problems people in France have. USA has brought us freedom, prosperity and security, under Soviet occupation we had hunger, poverty and hundreds of thousands were mass murdered.

Tust me I distinguish the difference but you are comparing Soviet occupation (which will not happen again as Poland is part of the EU) with American influence that didn't brought freedom, prosperity and security. It just brought capitalism and made your country another client of the USA. Btw I'm half american, its not like if I'm american hater like many french are.

And just out of curiosity what problems in france are you talking about ?

In other words between a regime that mass murdered thousands in Katyn, devestated Poland, made us eat oranges for Christmas only and made thieves steal toilet paper, versus a political system that made oranges every day food, doesn't mass murder our citizens, and has electricity shortages.

Other countries are eating oranges for christmas under capitalism. And thats when they are lucky. And again, you are comparing simple influence with total occupation.

Ah coca-cola-I still remember how dreamed about it under communism and the junk we had to drink then. Back in those days you only needed a pen from USA and were king of the school if you were a kid

I guess if that's true, the americans did a good job brainwashing your youth. But don't worry, they also did a good job in the rest of the world. You knew that they took advantage of the WW2 to introduce Kelloggs, Coca-Cola and Marlboro in Europe? Do you realize that most of the countries in the world are dependant of the USA ?

But saved Poland they did, so I have no reason to complain.And I might add that it wasn't the first time USA stood for Poland. After all it was Woodrow Wilson that made independence of Poland one of points of surrender in WW1.
While France believed Poland should part of Russian Empire.

France simply didn't have the political and military power to stand up to Russia just like all the other countries in the world. This is all diplomacy, it has nothing to do with Poland.

Yes, like when it was there was any doubt they are "good leaders" by mass murdering milions and having every possible shortage except perhaps steel for tanks.

Ok my english was bad here. I meant that now that the Soviet Union is no more, the US have proven themselves to be not so good leaders of the world.

That is why it is seeking alliance with France and Germany.

You can scream and shout all you want against France and Germany but its those countries that are paying for the economic development of yours. If Russian gaz can help Europe why not take it? Even if "god forgive me" it helps the big evil russians? Lets act as a block, and not individually.

[Shade2]

with American influence that didn't brought freedom, prosperity and security.

Sorry but I lived under communism, and I know what I am saying. People no longer fear the Soviet soldiers that occupied my city. People no longer buy oranges for christmas only, people no longer have to fear they will go to jail, because they will mention that their family members were murdered in one of Russia's forests.

And just out of curiosity what problems in france are you talking about ?

Seeing nothing wrong with a street named after Lenin in Paris for example.

Other countries are eating oranges for christmas under capitalism.

Their problem. Not mine. They should try better reforms. Like those in Poland that resulted in prosperity.

I guess if that's true, the americans did a good job brainwashing your youth.

It weren't Americans that made chocolate that tasted like shit under communism and it weren't Americans that brainwashed us into believing having toilet paper is good. Which of course wasn't available under communism.

You knew that they took advantage of the WW2 to introduce Kelloggs, Coca-Cola and Marlboro in Europe?

Good for the people of Europe. Too bad we had to wait 45 years for it to come to us also, and had to drink Soviet Piss-Cola that tasted like urine mixed with paint.

Do you realize that most of the countries in the world are dependant of the USA ?

Good for them. I suppose you would prefer them to be dominated by France or Russia ?

France simply didn't have the political and military power to stand up to Russia just like all the other countries in the world.

Neither had Poland to stand up against Hitler, but we did. I guess that is the difference between us and French.

This is all diplomacy, it has nothing to do with Poland.

Sorry but the status of Poland after the WW1 was discussed between members of Entante and France supported Poland being under Russian Empire's occupation. It were the Americans in WW1 that demanded independent Poland.

the US have proven themselves to be not so good leaders of the world.

I fail to see that, USA supports opposition to Russian imperialism.

France and Germany but its those countries that are paying for the economic development of yours

1-That is frankly absurd. Poland joined EU in 2004, and it rather wasn't a desolate wasteland before that date but a member of OECD, WTO and quite strongly developing country on its own will to reform and become prosperous. In fact France and Germany take advantage of our open market and cheap labour. So it can be said we are also fueling their growth. While at the same time insane regulations costed us much money and quite possible hindered a lot of growth potential.
2.The situation of Polish economy is direct result of France's betrayal in 1939 and German devestation of Poland in WW2 which cost us 630 bilion $ and led to communist occupation for next 45 years that further ruined our country. Considering those circumstances I find highly hypocritical of France and Germany to claim some sort of generosity towards Poland by "paying for economic development". Never mind that any such claim is completely unfounded anyway.

If Russian gaz can help Europe

There is no "Europe" country. There is France, Germany, Poland, Lithuania. Russian gas will help only Germany. I fail to see how becoming dependant on dictatorship like Russia and subject to blackmail is going to help anything. The only thing it can help is to hepl Russia achieve powerfull status and dominate Central Europe.

Lets act as a block, and not individually.

Spare me the French propaganda. The slogan is easly translated "Lets do what France and Germany demand".
I don't recall France and Germany adopting the attitude"let's act like a block" when majority of EU countries supported USA in intervention in Iraq. I don't recall Germany saying "let's not act individually" when Poland and Baltic countries asked it to reconsider the Baltic pipeline.
France and Germany don't care at all about independence of Poland and gladly would accept Poles becoming occupied by Russia again, because it would serve their interests.
Only USA is concerned about our independence.

[dannymu]

They didn't met their economic objective because they used to spend so much to support the EU when other countries didn't.

Can you prove such money was spent supporting teh EU?

What about the US that doesn't give a fuck about UN's vetos?

Hang on. This is about the EU, a supra-national organisation not the UN which is an inter-governmental organisation with different aims. Stop transforming this thread into a US policies thread and don't argue about the US not following UN orders simply to justify your country's corruption in the EU.

And yes they are the unofficial leaders and I don't see how this is a problem.

There you go. the majority of French don't see the problem because they lead the EU and get all benefits whereas the British pay a lot for french farmers and get nothing in return. The same with Poland which are not getting full help from the CAP (help which should be given since they joined the EU) because it is too expensive. WHy is it expensive? Because France gets a lot of the money from the CAP>

Every organisation needs a leader, even the world chose for leader the US.

I thought each EU country had the leadership of the EU every six months and that there was a president of the EU COmission. Well that's what happens yet the French and German want to do things their own way.

To get back to the EU, France and Germany are 2 of the founding members and the ones with the most developped economy. UK could have been one of them as well too but they chose not to.

So being the founder member gives the right to lead the EU and do whatever they want. No wonder the BRitish hate the EU. And your country under that De Gaulle TWICE vetoed the British application in the 1960s so think about your president too.

[stannis]

Well that's what happens yet the French and German want to do things their own way.

And the pro-war, pro-American states - UK, Poland, even Ireland, plus others - want to do things their way. Both camps lead to dissension, by their very nature of being in disagreement.

[dannymu]

And the pro-war, pro-American states - UK, Poland, even Ireland, plus others - want to do things their way.

Last time I checked Ireland had a policy of strict neutrality when it comes to wars.

[stannis]

Ha, good one

We claim to be, but the government found ways around that during after the invasion of Iraq. They supported the war covertly - letting troops use Shannon airport, ignoring rendition allegations, etc.

[dannymu]

We claim to be, but the government found ways around that during after the invasion of Iraq. They supported the war covertly - letting troops use Shannon airport, ignoring rendition allegations, etc.

You know there are laods of Irish descendents in the US. But I want to say thank you for Ireland for their efforts in contributing to a safer and peaceful world.

[stannis]

Contributing to the triggering of a war cannot be considered contributing to peace, no matter how one twists the logic

Irish descendents in the US don't interest me greatly. Except the ones who have emigrated back to Ireland from the States. I like them.

[dannymu]

Irish descendents in the US don't interest me greatly.

I'm very interested in the ones who financed the IRA's criminal campaign against British citizens.

[Thunderhawk]

I don't but I find it both paranoid and unfounded to think that Russia could dominate any country over the USA today.

This reminds me ..

The Soviets wont have the bomb for 5 more years..
5 years later, no-no 5 more years atleast, they dont have the technology, 5 more years.. What!? they have the bomb?
..
The Maginot line will hold, we will fight another defencive war, Germany cannot win. .. German armour punched through the North? gutted our HQ?
..
Henry VIII - called Defender of the Catholic Faith for his written work, devout man. Whats this about Anglicanism?


World progress isnt static, however convenient that would be.


Think of Russia as weak all you want, your wrong. Russia is rising and has resources.

The USA and the UK is busy with Iraq and will be for a long time, while Europe is still a divided unfunctional supranation.

In the mean time Russia's influence in the CIS is growing, Chechnya has been quieted and they are getting friendly with China.

China's role in the world is growing, and right behind them will be Russia growing, producing, and this time they will have a real market for their goods.

[Foxwood]

Sorry but I lived under communism, and I know what I am saying. People no longer fear the Soviet soldiers that occupied my city. People no longer buy oranges for christmas only, people no longer have to fear they will go to jail, because they will mention that their family members were murdered in one of Russia's forests.

It weren't Americans that made chocolate that tasted like shit under communism and it weren't Americans that brainwashed us into believing having toilet paper is good. Which of course wasn't available under communism.

You are comparing Capitalism with soviet communism and I couldn't agree more that capitalism is way better. But the US didn't just extend capitalism to easter europe, they extended their way of life and most of all their products. Products that make you now dependant of the US Economy.

Good for them. I suppose you would prefer them to be dominated by France or Russia ?

You should be happy for USSR when they were dominating your country if you are happy with the American dominion. Personnaly I'm against any form of dominion and stop saying I m a fan of Russia and France because I'm really not. Start a thread insulting france and I'll be there insulting with you.

Neither had Poland to stand up against Hitler, but we did. I guess that is the difference between us and French.

Being invaded in 3 days is not what i call "standing up against". Also you didn't really have a choice.

I fail to see that, USA supports opposition to Russian imperialism.

There is more to the world than just russian imperialism. Also USA oppose any form of imperialism that is not theirs. They even go to war in order to show that they are the boss.

Shade 2:

Never mind that any such claim is completely unfounded anyway.

Dannymu:

Can you prove such money was spent supporting teh EU?

European Union Budget Contribution per Year:
Germany: 22 218 438 772 Euros
France : 17 303 107 859 Euros
Italy: 14 359 479 157 Euros
United Kingdom: 13 739 900 046 Euros
Poland: 2 099 087 114 Euros
Rest of the list

Spare me the French propaganda. The slogan is easly translated "Lets do what France and Germany demand".

Well if France and Germany are so evil, if they are such self-centered control-freaks, why did Poland joined the EU in the first place? Why didn't they stay alone with the US as supplier? Didn't they knew Germany and France where the countries with the most weight in the EU?

There you go. the majority of French don't see the problem because they lead the EU and get all benefits whereas the British pay a lot for french farmers and get nothing in return. The same with Poland which are not getting full help from the CAP (help which should be given since they joined the EU) because it is too expensive. WHy is it expensive? Because France gets a lot of the money from the CAP>

Look the number of who benefit the most from the EU budget before saying such things. France is one of the country that benefit the least compared to how much money they put int. Poldand as a newcomer benefits a lot from it tho, not sure about UK, probably like France. You are right on one point tho, the agriculture thing (not sure how its called in english maybe its CAP) is bullshit and I think this program should be abandonned as soon as possible.

I thought each EU country had the leadership of the EU every six months and that there was a president of the EU COmission. Well that's what happens yet the French and German want to do things their own way.

Nothing to do with president of the commission or the "leadership" of the parliament, it has to do with the number of seat each country has in the parliament. 29 for France / UK / Germany / Italy. Thats how much weight they have in the European Union decision process.

So being the founder member gives the right to lead the EU and do whatever they want. No wonder the BRitish hate the EU. And your country under that De Gaulle TWICE vetoed the British application in the 1960s so think about your president too.

What do you mean by whatever they want? Each country can vote against or for each proposal. And British hate the EU because they are castaways. They never did what it they should have to get implicated and now they wonder why they are not on the first stage. If they wanted to be taken seriously they should have at least accepted the Euro. And I don't see the problem with vetoing the british application, they refused to take part in the creation process of the EU in the first place!!

[dannymu]

If they wanted to be taken seriously they should have at least accepted the Euro.

Ever heard of Black Wednesday? If so you then should be able to know why Britain is cautious about this monetary experiment.

And I don't see the problem with vetoing the british application, they refused to take part in the creation process of the EU in the first place!!

So under your logic Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Denmark, Ireland, Spain, Portugal and many more countries should be vetoed just because they didn't take part in the creation of the EC.

France is one of the country that benefit the least compared to how much money they put int.

That's why French farmers get a lot of the CAP.

Didn't they knew Germany and France where the countries with the most weight in the EU?

Poland can ally with a future British Conservative Government and then this evil French-German axis can be counter-attacked for the benefit of all.