[soron]

Well fretting over being raped in the past won't make you unraped now.

I think this talk about anti-Polish sentiments is somewhat exaggerated tho, but I don't believe it's unfair to ask where the hell you're standing, joining the EU (we didn't make you do that, did we ? Think of Switzerland) then taking a stand against the majority of the European governments, following America on that armed robbery writ large in Iraq.

[Shade2]

, but I don't believe it's unfair to ask where the hell you're standing, joining the EU

EU is a loose political and economical block, since it stands for "Obey Germany and France and shut up when we forge alliance with Russia against USA to realise our nostalgia for failed attempts to create world empires" ?

(we didn't make you do that, did we ? Think of Switzerland)

Switzerland wasn't ruined by WW2 and 50 years of communist exploitation. We joined to rise up from the destruction both events brought us, especially since Germany never paid us circa 630 bilion $ of damages it inflicted in WW2, so it shouldn't complain when giving a couple in EU for Poles to fund credits taken from German banks.

then taking a stand against the majority of the European governments,

1.EU is based on certain laws, and veto is one of them. We have every right to use it.
2.Majority of governments in EU supported Iraq intervention. It was France and Germany that sided with Russia.

that armed robbery writ large in Iraq.

I am delighted by German antiamericanism. I am sure it has nothing to do with losing war to them But why should you care, your country has nothing against making alliances with country that is engaging in what has been described by some as genocide in Chechnya-btw unlike USA in Iraq it doesn't seem to care to allow reporters and observes in.Its not like Germany has any moral high ground. To me it seems like poorely concealed outburst of frustration that USA beated you in WW2.

[soron]

EU is a loose political and economical block, since it stands for "Obey Germany and France and shut up when we forge alliance with Russia against USA to realise our nostalgia for failed attempts to create world empires" ?

Well Germany nd France are the asses who pull the cart while everybody else only seems to be out for a free ride. It shouldn't come as a surprise tho that the guy who hires the band also says what tune to play. You want polka ? Step up and contribute something to the common good.

...since Germany never paid us circa 630 bilion $ of damages it inflicted in WW2...

I won't bore the rest of the PoFo crowd by AGAIN going over the reparations paid by Germany to Poland after WW2 until the Polish government said in '54 it was all well. Deny all you want, those who want to know the truth can just check their history books.

I am delighted by German antiamericanism. I am sure it has nothing to do with losing war to them. But why should you care, your country has nothing against making alliances with country that is engaging in what has been described by some as genocide in Chechnya-btw unlike USA in Iraq it doesn't seem to care to allow reporters and observes in.Its not like Germany has any moral high ground. To me it seems like poorely concealed outburst of frustration that USA beated you in WW2.

We learned from our past mistakes, that's why we warned the Americans not to invade Iraq. Looks like we were right too.
Apparently you still need to learn that lesson so you stop living in the past and time stop embracing the sort of gun boat diplomacy that caused so much grief to your own country.

[Shade2]

Well Germany nd France are the asses who pull the cart while everybody else only seems to be out for a free ride

Oh sure, the Great Germany and France sacrificing themself for the good of european people. Funny...The country which helped Polish people most in EU was United Kingdom, not France or Germany, because UK opened its labour market to hundreds of thousands of Polish workers. So spare me the propaganda.
And the only thing direction France and Germany are pulling is towards a EU dominated by their national interests and in alliance with Russia against USA.Not our choice of EU we entered.

. It shouldn't come as a surprise tho that the guy who hires the band

Oh I always thought EU was based on equal rights, but now you seem to indicate we are just hired actors for France and Germany.

Step up and contribute something to the common good.

As soon as I see any action for common good I will gladly join in. As far as I see, the goal now is to help appease French nostalgia for its failed empire ambitions, and help Germany forge alliance with Russia in order to challenge USA. Not exactly my idea of common good, since it at the same time aims to decrease safety of other countries in EU.

I won't bore the rest of the PoFo crowd by AGAIN going over the reparations paid by Germany to Poland after WW2 until the Polish government said in '54 it was all well.

There were no reperations paid by German government to Poland.

those who want to know the truth can just check their history books.

Those who wanted to know to truth went to state's archives and searched it for days for any document that would declare end to reperations. No such document was found. The basis for German claims that Poland has declered Germans don't need to compensate for the enourmous destruction they inflicted on Poland was a conversion between leaders of Germany and Poland, in which Polish leader said that Poland wan't seek compensations right now. Trust to Germany to abuse Polish good will.

We learned from our past mistakes, that's why we

...sign deals with Russia over head of Central European countries that endanger their safety. Yup, making alliances with Russian dictatorship in order to dominate Europe. The Germans sure learned.

warned the Americans not to invade Iraq.

And at the same time hugged with Putin and fueled Russian economy that pays their military campaign in Chechnya.
Yup. Germany sure promotes peace and moral values in the world.

Apparently you still need to learn that lesson so you stop living in the past

Funny, Germans are living in it all the time.Steinbach, claiming they were victims of WW2, making deals with Russian dictatorship, Merkel hanging portait in her office of Russian ruler that destroyed Poland...

stop embracing the sort of gun boat diplomacy

I deeply apologise that Poland doesn't bow down to Germany and Russia and doesn't want to become their puppet.This is so terrible and nationalistic of Poland.

[Zel]

Oh sure, the Great Germany and France sacrificing themself for the good of european people. Laugh out loud Funny...The country which helped Polish people most in EU was United Kingdom, not France or Germany, because UK opened its labour market to hundreds of thousands of Polish workers. So spare me the propaganda.

Did that realy help the Polish economy in the longer run? From what I can gather up to now the countries which didnt open their labour markets probably hurt themselves most by denying young well trained dynamic people filling the gap their aging societies experience. On the other hand Poland has lost quite a bunch of people it may need in the future while on the other side those young remained that arent realy up to the challenge of the single market. So where was the Polish benefit apart from easing the short term unemployment problem?

[Shade2]

It has only positive sides to Poland:
Well some of them will return with money and new skills.
Most of them are sending money to Poland all the time.

If most of them will stay that will mean a large portion of liberal voters with leftist tendencies will be out of Poland, thus conservative parties will get more votes.

So in both cases there is something positive for Poland.
If they return-money and skills.
If they don't-more national character of Poland.

[Zel]

If they don't-more national character of Poland.

Which is good because in that case Poland will be poorer?

[Shade2]

Which is good because in that case Poland will be poorer?

Not in any catastrophic way.

[soron]

Shade2 wrote:There were no reperations paid by German government to Poland.

...the issue of reparations had been settled in the Potsdam Treaty of 1945. Drawn up by the victorious powers, this treaty determined that the Soviet Union was to hand over 15 percent of the reparations it received from eastern Germany to Poland. In 1953, Poland had explicitly renounced further reparations in an agreement with the Democratic Republic of Germany (East Germany) and again in the Warsaw Treaty of 1970 with the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany).

In opposition to these agreements, the stance taken by the Polish parliament today is that the Soviet Union had failed to fulfill its obligations in the Potsdam Treaty and that Poland was not a sovereign state between 1953 and 1970. The second argument would not, however, bear scrutiny under international law, as it would call into question numerous other international agreements and treaties signed with Eastern European states in the postwar period.

Source: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/pola-n06.shtml

So ... you're telling me we can't trust your assurances about what's settled and what's not ? And if we pay again can we expect you to come back for more in a couple of decades ?

[Shade2]

In 1953, Poland had explicitly renounced further reparations in an agreement with the Democratic Republic of Germany (East Germany)

There was no such agreement. Under international law you have to sign a treaty for such to happen. No such treaty was signed between Poland and DRG-this was only a remark in private discussion between leaders of two of those countries-which later Germans claimed as internationaly binding. Which is nonsense bacuse we don't live in age of Babylon and Egypt where the spoken word of ruler was law.

you're telling me we can't trust your assurances about what's settled and what's not

As even the biased text from the extremist site says the issue of reperations is be all means not settled.I am though positively surprised that at least it writes "agreement" not"treaty"-perhaps they couldn't stomach the lie that there ever was any treaty in that regard.

[soron]

Which is nonsense bacuse we don't live in age of Babylon and Egypt where the spoken word of ruler was law.

Actually you don't need to consult Egypt and Babylon, nowadays commercial law would suffice. According to this, two merchantsmen (which you are by default as soon as you own your own company) can finalize a contract by oral agreement and a handshake.
The problem of such gentlemen's agreements of course (and the reason it's not done anymore) arises from the legal problems of proving your point if one of the two suddenly claims ignorance of any contracts.

[Foxwood]

I live in Poland. Few hundred meters from my home there will be a street named after Ronald Reagan. In Paris they have street after Lenin who invaded my country and whose soldiers murdered my countrymen.

False, no street in paris are called after Lenin. Only a place called Stalinegrad.

[Shade2]

According to this, two merchantsmen (which you are by default as soon as you own your own company) can finalize a contract by oral agreement and a handshake.
The problem of such gentlemen's agreements of course (and the reason it's not done anymore) arises from the legal problems of proving your point if one of the two suddenly claims ignorance of any contracts.

First Poland is a state, not a merchant. Secondely we hardly care today for what a communist puppet mumbled in private when drunk with his communis puppet counterpart from East Germany when he occasionally stoped vomiting.

[soron]

Ah so the problem is that the reparations went to the "wrong" people (politically) and hence no "valid" payments have been made ?

Well in that case keep a stiff upper lip 'cause we got a receipt and a good signature on it. If you're looking for mo' money it might be worth to start looking at the communist party's accounts. Saying from our own experience during reunification, those (former?) semi-official institution had quiet some cash to hide.

[Shade2]

Ah so the problem is that the reparations went to the "wrong" people (politically) and hence no "valid" payments have been made ?

What reperations ? And why are you still discussing the drunken exchanges of non-sense between two puppets you already agreed have no legal consequences ?

[soron]

What reperations ? And why are you still discussing the drunken exchanges of non-sense between two puppets you already agreed have no legal consequences ?

I agreed what ? Ok once more: You received 15% of the reparations paid to the Soviet Union between 1945 and 1953. Period.

The Djem's ridiculous claims have already been rejected since they have no foundation or justification in international law.
Strictly speaking, since "Germany" was required to pay reparations in 1945 and the GDR and GER were founded in 1949, we're talking different states. All this changed again in 1990. Now since your main argument is that our reparations didn't count because your country was not free to negotiate their own, we can claim the same and say "tough luck, your proper partner for negotiation no longer exists". And that would be a lot more solid that your claims as it was decided in Paris (the document upon which ALL reparations are based) that Poland would receive their share of reparations from the GDR. Case closed.
Besides, didn't Poland draw a most liberal form of extra reparations from Germany after the iron curtain went down, in the form of stolen cars ?

[Shade2]

You received 15% of the reparations paid to the Soviet Union between 1945 and 1953.

When and where ? Poland didn't receive any of it. Point me to it.

The Djem's ridiculous claims have already been rejected since they have no foundation or justification in international law.

Which parts of international law. International law says that exchanges between private meetings are de facto treaties between the states ?

Now since your main argument is that our reparations didn't count because your country was not free to negotiate their own

Nope that was not mine argument. You are running in circles completely disregarding what I am saying.

And let me say it in bold:
You claimed Germany is so generous by "financing" Poland. Well tough luck-it never paid 630 bilion of $ of compensation towards devestation it made towards my country. Regardless of it had right not to. So don't bring the German arrogance of saying "we pay so much". No you don't. You never paid us 630 bilions of $ for what you did to my country. You have no moral high ground.

And that would be a lot more solid that your claims as it was decided in Paris

I never made such claim. You seem to desperate to mislead since you have no arguments.

Besides, didn't Poland draw a most liberal form of extra reparations from Germany after the iron curtain went down, in the form of stolen cars ?

Oh and now in desperation you go after the racist attack on Poles trying to portay our people as criminals. Showing that the stereotype of Germans as having racist opinions about Poles is completely unfounded.
Let me respond with a Polish joke of our own"Go to Germany Pole, your grandfathers clock, paintings and furniture are already there since WW2".

[Zel]

Oh and now in desperation you go after the racist attack on Poles trying to portay our people as criminals.

Fight fire with fire, if you want to deal out expect that it comes back again.

[Shade2]

Fight fire with fire,

Thanks for the advice but I won't engage in racist attacks on any other poster.As a Pole I am very much against racism.

Constitution of May 3, 1791 changed Commonwealth into Poland.