America’s Future is Red, Europe’s is Green - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Shade2
#1049105
But how can the EU expect to grow together and become something resembling a unified continent if we let our actions be dictated from across the ocean. IIRC that's what triggered the American revolution, and perhaps for the good of the old new Europe it will trigger something here as well.


America doesn't dictate anything to EU.EU thankfully has no foreign policy, and if we are lucky it never will. They are a lot of countries in EU readily and happily working with USA to make the world a better place. The only country that is dictating something to EU is the Russian dictatorship. The amount of influence Russia already has over its potential future puppet states like Germany(which is driven and blinded by antipathy to USA for losing WW2 to it) worrying to people who recently liberated themselfs from Russian occupation, and they naturally seek help and advice from country that actively supported their liberation from Soviet Russia-USA.
Thus there is no need to fear any "American dictate" -if there is something to worry then it is the already growing dictate from Russia towards EU.
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By Ombrageux
#1049201
So you are saying America should just allow Islamic extremists to attack Americans at will?

Um, no, I'm saying doing something about terrorism isn't always helpful when that something makes it worse.

There's lots of things America can do, search containers, increase police work, freeze terrorists' accounts. America is doing those things. But on top of that, you have the GWOT, you have irrelevance. You have spending $500 billion on what amounts to destroying an Arab country which until then had had no real ties to terrorism and had produced few terrorists.

The "solution" is to put the problem in perpective. It is to understand its limits. Which is why it is best understood as a problem, one like crime or international drugs, not some existential menace or neo-World War.

Why were the fascists and the commies incapable of taking over the world?

The fascists could, at most, take over Europe and inherit the colonial empires (which were about the break apart anyway). The Commies, though I really should say the Soviets, were never going to take over more than Western Europe (although that itself is significant, and worthy containing).

When I say "commies", "fascists", "islamists" taking over the world, I mean a single state/empire with one of those ideologies. As soon as you have rivarly between states of the same ideology (China-USSR, Iran-Taliban) then it becomes obvious they can't take over the world. (though they can be a great threat in a more limited way)
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By soron
#1050177
EU thankfully has no foreign policy, and if we are lucky it never will. They are a lot of countries in EU readily and happily working with USA to make the world a better place. The only country that is dictating something to EU is the Russian dictatorship. The amount of influence Russia already has over its potential future puppet states like Germany(which is driven and blinded by antipathy to USA for losing WW2 to it) worrying to people who recently liberated themselfs from Russian occupation, and they naturally seek help and advice from country that actively supported their liberation from Soviet Russia-USA.


Don't get your hopes up, the EU is well on its way to a Confederation - maybe even a true Union one day. Working with the US to make the world a better place is a good goal, but what if the US drops everything the West stood for, such as human rights, the civil liberties you didn't enjoy when you were in The Warsaw Pact, and adopts torture, illegal prisons and racist treatment of their prisoners ?
You really should read up on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

There's nothing in it about making the world better, merely about making sure the US dominates everything.
Oh BTW, could you please make up your mind and decide what Germany is - puppet to the Russians or Imperial power ? We can't very well be both at the same time, can we ?
By Shade2
#1050250
Don't get your hopes up, the EU is well on its way to a Confederation - maybe even a true Union one day.

So intend to destroy Poland or what is your plan that will allow those mad dreams to come about ? Because you know there is this slight problem, that nobody serious in Poland would support EU becoming Confederacy. The main opposition party is Euro-sceptic for example, and had "Nicea Treaty or death" as one of its slogans :)


but what if the US drops everything the West stood for, such as human rights, the civil liberties you didn't enjoy when you were in The Warsaw Pact, and adopts torture, illegal prisons and racist treatment of their prisoners ?

So you mean what if USA becomes like the country France and Germany want to ally with and rule Europe together-that is Russia ?
Fortunetely USA continues to stand for liberty, freedom, prosperity and democracy, and there are no signs it will stop doing that.

There's nothing in it about making the world better, merely about making sure the US dominates everything.

You mean the country that has led to abolishing of several genocidal regimes, the country with the most succesfull model of society, economy and democracy wants to share that success with the world ? That is wonderfull news !

Oh BTW, could you please make up your mind and decide what Germany is - puppet to the Russians or Imperial power ?

Both Russians and Germans share similiar culture when it comes to political views and society organisation. None of those points exclude each other. This is the moment of transition-Germany tries to create and empire, Russia also, but it is tempted to control Germany in the process. We shall see how it works out. But Germans are obedient people-I am sure it will be easy for Russians to direct them.
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By stannis
#1050252
Both Russians and Germans share similiar culture when it comes to political views and society organisation.


Germany is a liberal democracy. Russia is increasingly authoritarian and nationalist. They are not really that similar in politics.
By Shade2
#1050257
Germany is a liberal democracy. Russia is increasingly authoritarian and nationalist. They are not really that similar in politics.

Both share the same attitude to matters of individualism and state.
The same totalitarian belief that individual exists to serve the state and ruler, and that it is the state that is supreme to the individual. They share similiar patterns of social organisation and behaviour.
Both have cultural background in Byzantine Empire, and the belief that political power overrides the authority of religion.
Last edited by Shade2 on 21 Nov 2006 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
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By stannis
#1050260
Please give examples of German individuals obeying the state in all matters.

What is wrong with following laws, by the way?

The administration and centre has superior role in state affairs.


As occurs in most countries.
Last edited by stannis on 21 Nov 2006 13:43, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#1050261
What is wrong with following laws, by the way?

"I was just following orders..."
Adolf Eichmann
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By stannis
#1050264
Oh come on, do not confuse laws with military orders.

That is a complete mismatch. Judges do not equal Nazi gauleiters!
By Shade2
#1050270
Judges do not equal Nazi gauleiters!

They do since German law defined who is a Jew and made specific instructions as to their treatment in society.
This is a perfect example of totalitarism that can be found in both Russian and German political cultures-thus they are similiar.
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By soron
#1050271
Now I'm curious: Why in your opinion DID Poland join the EU ? When the EC was discontinued and turned into the EU it should have been clear that a common future was the goal.
When the Euro replaced a whole number of national currencies and resposibility shifted from the national central banks to the European Central Bank, it should have been clear that the intentions were serious.
When the European Constitution was drafted it should have been clear that some sort of political union was the goal.

I can see why some governments don't like the idea of having their own influence reduced. But what difference does it really make for the people ?
I believe that a proposed "Europe of regions" would be a better way to handle things than a patchwork of nationstates with all kinds of conflicting priorities. I'll give you an example: Your own problems are probably more similar to those of Northeastern Germany than those of Northeastern Germany and Southwestern Germany (one being a coastal region, the other being entirely inland, bordering to mountains). So shifting more power to the regional (in the case of Germany: state) governments and replacing a bunch of redundant national governments with a common European government wouldn't be a bad thing imho. It would allow for more flexibility on a regional level (through the more powerful regional governments) while at the same time enabling Europe to act as a union.
By Shade2
#1050274
Now I'm curious: Why in your opinion DID Poland join the EU ?

1-It is easier to counterbalance Geramn attempts to dominate Europe from within the organisation, then from without. Countries such as Britain gained an ally in Poland.And Poland has its own vision of EU that it can put forward.
2-Since Germany never compensated us for 630 bilion $ worth of destruction it inflicted on Poland during WW2 we are economically still rebuilding, and EU funds as small and potentially dangerous are better then nothing at all.

I believe that a proposed "Europe of regions" would be a better way to handle things than a patchwork of nationstates with all kinds of conflicting priorities. I'll give you an example: Your own problems are probably more similar to those of Northeastern Germany than those of Northeastern Germany and Southwestern Germany (one being a coastal region, the other being entirely inland, bordering to mountains). So shifting more power to the regional (in the case of Germany: state) governments and replacing a bunch of redundant national governments with a common European government wouldn't be a bad thing imho. It would allow for more flexibility on a regional level (through the more powerful regional governments) while at the same time enabling Europe to act as a union.


As Germany is far richer and populous then Poland then it its regions would easly became centers of local power and influence-easly dominating much poorer regions in Western Poland-especially as they border Berlin region. Thus Polish state would lose its influence and control of this regions to Germans. We have an historic example:such organisation existed in the past during Fragmentation of Poland in Piast times. Similiary Poland was divided by regions with local "flexibility". Over time they integrated themselfs with Germany, became Germanised and lost to Poland, and eventually part of German state.Only hundreds of years later in 1945, were they restored to Poland to which they belonged in the first place.
In such "Europe of regions" such scenario would likely repeat itself with Silesia, Pomerania becoming dominated by German influence.
Also without the strenght of state, such regions would be easly dominated by powerfull neighbouring regions.
Also in time it could be likely that centralised states would return, or more central regions-those ares who fell under influence of different culture, nation and ethnic group would likely be lost to their former states.
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By soron
#1050305
As Germany is far richer and populous then Poland then it its regions would easly became centers of local power and influence-easly dominating much poorer regions in Western Poland-especially as they border Berlin region. Thus Polish state would lose its influence and control of this regions to Germans. We have an historic example:such organisation existed in the past during Fragmentation of Poland in Piast times. Similiary Poland was divided by regions with local "flexibility". Over time they integrated themselfs with Germany, became Germanised and lost to Poland, and eventually part of German state.Only hundreds of years later in 1945, were they restored to Poland to which they belonged in the first place.
In such "Europe of regions" such scenario would likely repeat itself with Silesia, Pomerania becoming dominated by German influence.
Also without the strenght of state, such regions would be easly dominated by powerfull neighbouring regions.
Also in time it could be likely that centralised states would return, or more central regions-those ares who fell under influence of different culture, nation and ethnic group would likely be lost to their former states.


Interesting perspective. You might be right here but the opposite could easily be the case as well: Since there is a migration underway away from eastern Germany it would be potentially easy for immigrats from Polish regions to become the dominating ethnic group in former German regions.
The loss of national culture might be a problem. However I don't think that nationstates can keep that problem entirely out - just think how much American culture is spread throughout the world simply by selling soap operas made in hollywood to the national TV stations.
There's also such a thing as being too self-contained: Take Switzerland as an example. For the last 30 years of so they have pretty strictly enforced and supported their Swiss-German, in an attempt at maintaining some sort of national integrity of their language (curious for a country which employs 4 official languages: French, Italian, German and Rhaeto-Romanic).
Now a few months ago I saw a report on TV in which the Swiss parliament is contemplating to use English as the official language in parliament instead of Swiss-German because:
The Swiss were so successful in cultivating their own dialects that those dialects drifted apart from regular German and apart from each other to local differences that might be so distinct from one valley to another that there is no longer a common language - people using their different dialects don't understand each other.
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By Ombrageux
#1050369
Shade - You're just full of it. The 1930s are over. The Germans are really quite happy being rich, with a few couples retiring in Silesia or Pommerania, or even the odd group of tourists going to Kaliningrad (former East Prussia). That's it, that's the extent of it, you're just frightened.

Poland is safe, you are safe, you're just making things up. That said, if you want to scream the "sky is falling" until your lungs bursts, you have the right to do so.
By Shade2
#1050516
You might be right here but the opposite could easily be the case as well: Since there is a migration underway away from eastern Germany it would be potentially easy for immigrats from Polish regions to become the dominating ethnic group in former German regions.

This is completely absurd. German society puts a lot of pressure on Polish people to abandon their language and roots. Discrimination of Polish language and people is a reality in Germany. You can for example find classes in Chinese but not in Polish, although they are over 2 milion Poles in Germany. Poles have no rights as minority in Germany, although Polish state has granted rights to Germans in Poland-who at once used it to rename a lake to Hitlersee among other things.

German nationalism is openly encouraged by German state, for example by forbidding parents to talk or teach Polish to their children.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... world.html
A Polish father has become embroiled in a row with Germany's welfare authorities after they banned him from talking to his daughters in his native language.

In a case that has outraged public opinion in Poland, Wojciech Pormorski, 36, has been told by the Hamburg city authorities that regular dialogue in Polish with his daughters, aged seven and four, would hinder their integration into German society.

Mr Pormorski separated from his German wife 18 months ago and has been denied access to their daughters after refusing to guarantee that he would speak to them only in German.



Polish state television has made a document on this persecution of Polish language in Germany, and they are thousands of cases like this.

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/401/212schlott.html
Alas, the legal conditions afforded by the German political system act against such harmonious integration. As a result, both the Aussiedler and other Polish immigrants usually believe that it is better not to reveal Polish identity in Germany. Countless examples of hostility (extending even to tourists) and discrimination support these conclusions. (16)

The Germans speak arrogantly of Polnische Wirtschaft, thus confirming the economic differences between the two countries but conveniently forgetting the German (and Prussian) contribution to the destruction of that Wirtschaft. In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago. On the other hand, during the time of communism in central and eastern Europe, it was difficult for Polish and other immigrants from communism to develop pride concerning their country of origin. The poverty of eastern and central European countries, their lack of democracy and constant economic crises evoked the feeling shame and jealousy as contrasted with West German prosperity. The discrimination of Poles (and of other ethnic minorities) in Germany has been exacerbated by the extremist right and its slogans of Deutschland für Deutsche and Ausländer raus!

Still another problem is the culture shock stemming from two different perceptions of what Europe really means. To Poles, it seems natural that they, together with the Germans, belong to a common European culture and share a common religion. This feeling of belonging together is not shared by the Germans. While the Poles accept German culture as part of European culture, the Germans do not see Polish culture as sharing the same cultural roots. While an educated Pole knows at least some German writers, the opposite is not true of an educated German. The growing realization of this situation, the feeling of frustration, anger and resentment not only against the Germans but also against Polish culture is a natural result, and some immigrants begin to share the prejudices of the dominant group. While the emigration of the last 20 years has somewhat softened these problems, they still do exist.


The 1930s are over. The Germans are really quite happy being rich, with a few couples retiring in Silesia or Pommerania, or even the odd group of tourists going to Kaliningrad (former East Prussia). That's it, that's the extent of it, you're just frightened.

This is completely naive and ignorant of what is happening in Germany. German society is subject to rebirth of massive nationalism. Germans try to re-write history in which the main victims of WW2 are Germans alongside Jews, Germans want to portay Germany as equal side in WW2 and erase German crimes against others(besides Jewish people). Germany refuses to compensate countries it destroyed in WW2.
The current leader of Germany has honoured a person responsible for ethnic cleansing of Polish people and destruction of Poland by signing the portait of said person in his main office. German media are full of arrogance and prejudices towards Poles. Not a week goes by without German media publishing a racist portayal of Polish people as thieves, criminals and primitives that Germans must educate.
Germany openly and disregarding all pleas is pursuing to establishing an alliance with Russia aimed at destroying Polish security.

you're just making things up.

Of course. It was me who builde the Baltic sea pipeline that will allow to blackmail Poland, It was I who signe the portait of person responsible for ethnic cleansing of Polish people in German high office, it was me who reguralry makes racist portayals of Poles as criminals and barbarians in German media. It is me not German president that adresses meetings of organisations founded in part by former SS members.


That said, if you want to scream the "sky is falling" until your lungs bursts, you have the right to do so.

Yeah sure, it will be quite normal for the West to ignore Polish warnings. After all they ignored them in 1939 and 1945 and things went fine...

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