[Shade2]

Inaccurate too, of course since you never mention that Poland received 15% of the reparations paid to the Soviet Union ... billions back in 1950 which would be a bit more according to today's exchange rate

Nope, Poland never received such compensations. You are lying as usual.

But again this case falls into the same boat as the other one, a divorce during which a German mother does not allow her child to speak polish.

Nope. German Jugendamt.

No, it gives the impression that all parents, even purely polish ones, are forbidden to teach their children polish.

"Purely Polish" ? Oh speaking about "purity" of somebody's Polishness or Germaness sure brings memories...

[soron]

Nope, Poland never received such compensations. You are lying as usual.

Deny all you want, it was the Polish government who confirmed they received the reparations back in the 50's so it's pretty obvious who's lieing here.

[Shade2]

Deny all you want, it was the Polish government who confirmed they received the reparations back in the 50's so it's pretty obvious who's lieing here.

LOL. The usuall German propaganda, never had Polish government signed any treaty that rejected such reperations.

Because your posts are racists rather than revanchist ?

As usuall insults rather then answers.
It is clear that Poland is free from nationalism such as the one in Germany. They are no Polish demands towards lost territories in Ukraine, Lithuania or Belarus. In Germany they are numerous organisations doing so towards Poland.
It is clear that Germany is far more nationalistic country towards its neighbours.

[soron]

LOL. The usuall German propaganda, never had Polish government signed any treaty that rejected such reperations.

Oh really ?

The Polish government, also taking a position on the Sejm resolution, has firmly recognized the matter of claims in Polish-German relations as closed once and for all. Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz said, "The Council of Ministers appreciates the concern of the Sejm. However, the government has to recognize that from the legal point of view, the issue of war reparation is closed." His main argument referred to agreements concluded at the Potsdam conference, which featured reparations for Poland in the form of incorporation of western and northern territories and the property located in those areas as well as a statement by the government of communist Poland in 1953 renouncing further reparations.

Source ? Better like it http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/6533/

Seems some of your countrymen disagree with your point of view

Or how about this one:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1325939,00.html

I especially like this part:

The legal position is clear. A treaty between Germany and Poland officially recognizes the Oder and Neisse rivers as Poland's western-most border. Germany is Poland's most important trading partner, and both countries are members of NATO and the European Union, and Germany was also championed Poland's political needs when it negotiated its EU membership. Additionally, Poland dropped all of its demands for reparations payments from the Germans during the 1950s.

Backstabbing anyone ?

[Shade2]

Oh really ?

Oh really indeed. The text only speaks about "position" of the government-not any treaty signed as you claimed.

as well as a statement by the government of communist Poland in 1953 renouncing further reparations.

A statement is not a legally bounding treaty, hence according to international law, Poland would have every possible right to demand compensations. And btw-this "statement" is found only in newspaper from that year. No copy has been found in national archives. It was just a press relase from a report from a personal meeting. And even more-only towards East Germany, not West.

Backstabbing anyone ? Evil grin

Unlike Germany, we in Poland have opinion that citizens aren't bound to have opinions identitical to government. In my opinion, and in opinion of many others Germany should pay 540 bilion of euro of compensations it owes Poland.
And besides, it speaks badly of Germany if it never compensated Poland for destruction. It seems that Germany never bothered with coming to terms with its treatment of Poles and Poland in the past like it did towards Jews. Otherwise out of pure decency it would try to seek some form of helping Poland and making justice for harm it did to Poland in previous 200 years.


And you still haven't answered:

It is clear that Poland is free from nationalism such as the one in Germany. They are no Polish demands towards lost territories in Ukraine, Lithuania or Belarus. In Germany they are numerous organisations doing so towards Poland.
It is clear that Germany is far more nationalistic country towards its neighbours.
Why is Germany so nationalistic Soron ?

[soron]

I didn't answer that question because it's an unproven and obviously uninformed claim you make here.
There are also no German claims towards territories in Poland. In fact Germany acknowledged Poland's sovereignity in the Oder-Neisse treaty of 1990 - the treaty Poland has threatened to cancel. I wonder if that would be wise. Let's not forget you're also claiming the reparations we paid in the fifties don't count since you were not a sovereign state back then.
Well, using your own logic in that case: If you were not a sovereign state and therefore the reparations paid had no legal effect, wouldn't that mean that the terrirories you receieved aren't really yours ? Since only a sovereign state could own another sovereign state's territories.
If that was true, the only legal paper you have that acknowledges Poland's claim of those former German territories would be the 1990 treaty which you threatened to cancel over this issue. Think about it, you might get more than you're bargaining for.

There ARE claims of German individuals or organizations who have been expelled from land their families owned for gererations. But that is not the same as a government claim and quiet frankly the fact that Poland's government descended to their level and is engaging in this kind of verbal mudwrestling isn't going to get you beans, just disrespect.

[Shade2]

There are also no German claims towards territories in Poland. In fact Germany acknowledged Poland's sovereignity in the Oder-Neisse treaty of 1990 - the treaty Poland has threatened to cancel.

Nope. Poland never called for cancelation of Odra-Nysa treaty. It called for re-writing in order to stop German violations of Polish border in Szczecin area and ending German claims against Poland.

Let's not forget you're also claiming the reparations we paid in the fifties don't count since you were not a sovereign state back then.

You never paid any reperations.

There ARE claims of German individuals or organizations who have been expelled from land their families owned for gererations.

Another lie German nationalist propaganda. How many generations did Steinbach's family lived in Poland. You know the leader of those organisation BdV ?

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/3558/
But Steinbach did not answer; nor did she correct any of the statements, including those by journalists, questioning her right to refer to herself as one of the "expelled" (Steinbach was born in Rumia near Gdynia as a daughter of a German soldier participating in the occupation of Poland).
So much for your "generations".

More claims:
http://www.zeitung-region.info/nowosci.php

(NPD) stellt die deutsch-polnische Grenze an der Oder und Neiße in Frage. Seit kurzem geschieht das bereits offen und was noch viel schlimmer ist, ohne rechtliche Konsequenzen. Jüngste Aussagen eines der rechtsextremen Abgeordneten lauteten u. a.: „für die NPD endet Pommern nicht an der Oder, sondern umfasst ebenfalls Gebiete, die heute zu Polen gehören.“

So Soron -those neonazis from NPD lived in Poland for generations as you claimed ?

But that is not the same as a government claim and quiet frankly the fact that Poland's government descended to their level and is engaging in this kind of verbal mudwrestling isn't going to get you beans, just disrespect.

Polish government never made any territorial demands towards its neighbours nor are there any organisations in Poland that make such demands as in Germany. You are as usuall lying again.
In Germany there are organisations making territorial claims against neigbours-they are no such claims in Poland towards neighbours. Clearly Germany is a very nationalistic country.

[soron]

You never paid any reperations.

History will decide. Oops, it did. We paid the Soviets and your share was 15%. If the Soviets didn't pay you - go ask them. Maybe they'll pay you in gas. Oops, I forgot. Your trying to stall the gas deliveries.

But Steinbach did not answer; nor did she correct any of the statements, including those by journalists, questioning her right to refer to herself as one of the "expelled" (Steinbach was born in Rumia near Gdynia as a daughter of a German soldier participating in the occupation of Poland).
So much for your "generations".

What about her mother's family ? Conveniently forgetting to mention some facts again, are we ?

The NPD is usually skating on the edge of being declared unconstitutional. They didn't get enough votes to get into the Bundestag and I don't know why you're so obsessed with what less than 95% of the Germans say ?
You think Germany should judge Poland based on a few hundred car thieves ? Or rather the millions of citizens who are working each day to rebuild an independant Poland ?

Polish government never made any territorial demands towards its neighbours nor are there any organisations in Poland that make such demands as in Germany. You are as usuall lying again.

I'm lying were ? I said the German government never made territorial claims against Poland but rather some individuals are, and that therefore a government who should deal with governments shouldn't decend on the level of those indivisuals. Apparently you didn't understand that because I didn't make any statement that you made claims against your neighbors, so in the absense of even a comment on the issue: how did I lie ? Sheesh.

In Germany there are organisations making territorial claims against neigbours-they are no such claims in Poland towards neighbours. Clearly Germany is a very nationalistic country.

In Germany there are also people who only eat vegan food but that doesn't make us a nation of vegetarians.

[Shade2]

We paid the Soviets and your share was 15%.

So you agree that you never paid us and that Poland never signed any treaty ending the reperations issue.

Your trying to stall the gas deliveries.

What ? Please explain.

What about her mother's family ? Conveniently forgetting to mention some facts again, are we ?

What about her mother that lived in Berlin and visited her soldier on occupation duty in Poland my dear German propagandist ?

The NPD is usually skating on the edge of being declared unconstitutional. They didn't get enough votes to get into the Bundestag and I don't know why you're so obsessed with what less than 95% of the Germans say ?

The difference is clear. There are no parties with territorial demands towards Polish neighbiours in Poland. They are in Germany. NPD is just one of them.

You think Germany should judge Poland based on a few hundred car thieves ? Or rather the millions of citizens who are working each day to rebuild an independant Poland ?

Polish car thieves no doubt speak that there is much more poverty in Poland then in Germany. German nationalists no doubt speak that there is much more nationalism in Germany then in Poland.

I said the German government never made territorial claims against Poland but rather some individuals are, and that therefore a government who should deal with governments shouldn't decend on the level of those indivisuals.

Nope you compered Polish governmetn to the them. Polish government never made any territorial demands against its neighbours like German organisations do.

In Germany there are also people who only eat vegan food but that doesn't make us a nation of vegetarians.

But certainly if a country had no vegetarians it would be less vegetarian then a country that had tens of thousands.
Clearly Germany has more nationalism then Poland. I am unaware of any political party in Poland advocating revision of borders, or of any societies. In contrast in Germany they are several such political parties and organisations. Clearly Germany must deal with this nationalism.
What steps are made in Germany to deal with this hatefull attitude towards German neighbours.

[soron]

So you agree that you never paid us and that Poland never signed any treaty ending the reperations issue.

We paid according to the Potsdam treaty on war reparations and stopped when the countries we paid said we paid our dues so I'm afraid your clever little scheme is bound to failure.

What ? Please explain.

After we have established that you forgot the events 50 years ago (see above) we now learn that you're having trouble remembering the events of 5 weeks ago ?
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/11/24/eudivided.shtml

What about her mother that lived in Berlin and visited her soldier on occupation duty in Poland my dear German propagandist ?

Etwas über 14 Millionen Deutsche und deutschstämmige Angehörige verschiedener Staaten waren zwischen 1944/45 und 1950 von Flucht und Vertreibung betroffen. Mehrere Hunderttausend wurden in Lagern inhaftiert oder mussten - teilweise jahrelang - Zwangsarbeit leisten. Die Anzahl der Vertriebenen, deren Schicksal nicht geklärt werden konnte, der Todesopfer, betrug nach den beiden großen, im Auftrag des Deutschen Bundestages durchgeführten Untersuchungen von 1958 und 1965 rund 2,1 Millionen

You're main argument is that Erika Steinbach has been expelled as a 2 year old infant when there were more than 14 millions driven off their land ?

The difference is clear. There are no parties with territorial demands towards Polish neighbiours in Poland. They are in Germany. NPD is just one of them.

Your making unjustified monetary claims although we already paid reparations. They are making claims although the German government paid some sort of compensation to those people back in the 50's and 60's which entitles Germany to making territorial claims, not those people who have been reimbursed. So you're no better than they are.

Nope you compered Polish governmetn to the them. Polish government never made any territorial demands against its neighbours like German organisations do.

Wrong. Try again.

What steps are made in Germany to deal with this hatefull attitude towards German neighbours.

It would help if those neighbors would not freak out over a non-issue. The BdV might be a hot topic in Poland but here in Germany they're just a group of people living in the past.
Before Poland started to escalate this issue I didn't even know the name of Erika Steinbach. Poland's given this whole issue so much attention and reacted in such an out-of-proportion way that you gave those people a forum to talk in and way more attention than they deserve.

Oh and to answer your question more specifically: In the end, the BfV will deal with those people. Because Germany (I don't know about Poland) does have a law against "Volksverhetzung" and people who are violating the constitution will be dealt with by the Bundesamt fuer Verfassungsschutz (which would translate as "Federal Agency for Protection of the Constitution").

[87522]

It is perfectly clear that Russia will be able to blackmail us thanks to German efforts. Just because you give somebody else your gun to kill a person, doesn't make you innocent.

So every pipeline that doesn't lead through Poland is an effort to blackmail her? Please.

And as usuall, ignoring the fact that is not about school but home. Parents are forbidden to speak to their children in Polish.

And as usuall, ignoring the fact that there might be some interdependence... If a child doesn't speak German, it probably won't perform too well in school.

In Germany there are organisations making territorial claims against neigbours-they are no such claims in Poland towards neighbours.

There are crackpots in every country, which doesn't prove a thing.

If you think Poland is free of loons, read this:

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/view ... hp?t=70227

And speaking of German nationalism:

Poland's National Democrats, an anti-semitic right-wing party, is far more popular in Poland than the NPD in Germany...

[Shade2]

We paid according to the Potsdam treaty on war reparations and stopped when the countries we paid said we paid our dues

Nope, you still owe Polan 540 billion euros in compensation. It is only the good will of Polish government that we are not seeking it. I am of the opinion that in light of nationalistic agression coming out from German government we need to change this attitude.

After we have established that you forgot the events 50 years ago (see above)

I never did. You are delusional.

we now learn that you're having trouble remembering the events of 5 weeks ago ?
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/11/24/eudivided.shtml

And ? Poland blocked German attempts to forge an alliance with Russia while neglecting the discrimination of Poland by Russia and Russian refusal to sign energy charter. Geramny should remember that greed isn't the best advisor.

Etwas über 14 Millionen Deutsche und deutschstämmige Angehörige

The usuall propaganda I see. Nothing about how many of them were sent to Poland as colonists by Nazis and Imperial Germany in XIX ? (Nazis sended circa 1 milion if you are wondering)

im Auftrag des Deutschen Bundestages durchgeführten Untersuchungen von 1958 und 1965 rund 2,1 Millionen

Yawn, the usuall German nationalist propaganda.
http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/kulturheute/563831/

Der Historiker Ingo Haar hält die Zahl von zwei Millionen deutschen Opfern bei den Vertreibungen nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg für übertrieben. Realistisch sind nach seiner Einschätzung etwa 500.000 bis 600.000 deutsche Todesopfer. Haar, Mitarbeiter am Zentrum für Antisemitismusforschung der Technischen Universität Berlin, führt die bis heute vom Bund der Vertriebenen angegebene Zahl auf politisch motivierte Schätzungen in den 50er Jahren zurück.

Stefan Koldehoff: Ich habe Ingo Haar gefragt, wie er denn seine Neuzählung begründet.

Ingo Haar: Zunächst einmal muss ich sagen, dass es sich um keine Neuzählung handelt. Die Zahl von zwei Millionen Opfern, die Frau Steinbach vom Bund der Vertriebenen angibt und die sich hier auch auf mehreren Posten zusammenstellt aus der Chronik der Vertreibung des Zentrums gegen Vertreibung, die ist eher neu. Das Interessante ist, dass diese Zahl von zwei Millionen Opfern sich auf Zahlen bezieht, die in den 50er Jahren in dieser Form ausgerechnet worden sind, und diese Zahlen haben auch einen bestimmten historischen Hintergrund. Und dieser historische Hintergrund ist so gelagert, dass diese Zahl einfach heutzutage von keinem ernstzunehmenden Wissenschaftler mehr als wahr eingestuft wird.

Koldehoff: Diese Zahl war damals politisch gewollt. Warum eigentlich, warum wollte man die Zahlen hochrechnen?

Haar: Die politische Ausgangssituation 1953 war die, dass es um die Revision des Potsdamer Abkommens ging. Deutschland wurde wiederbewaffnet. Der Korea-Krieg hat eine große Wende in Westeuropa gegen die kommunistischen Staaten geschaffen. Die Adenauer-Regierung hatte innenpolitisch das Problem, dass ihnen die Vertriebenenverbände durch eine eigene Partei Konkurrenz gemacht haben, und hier bedurfte es außenpolitisch und innenpolitisch einfach großer Opferzahlen, um auch diese Interessen zu bedienen.

Koldehoff: Sie haben gerade schon drauf hingewiesen, dass der Bund der Vertriebenen im Zusammenhang mit dem geplanten Zentrum gegen Vertreibungen mit dieser Zahl nun wieder operiert. Die Zahl von zwei Millionen taucht zwar nominell so nie auf, wenn man aber in der Chronik der Vertreibungen beispielsweise die Zahlen, die für die einzelnen Bevölkerungsgruppen gelten, addiert, dann kommt man auf diese Zahl. Könnte der Bund der Vertriebenen wissen, dass diese Zahlen nicht unbedingt seriös sind?

Haar: Ich gehe davon aus, dass es auch statistisches Wissen professionalisiert gib, innerhalb des Bundes der Vertriebenen. Offenbar ist er aber in diesem Punkt nicht befragt worden, denn es gibt ja Zahlen von 1974 aus einer Studie, die damals in den späten 60er Jahren die Große Koalition aufgelegt hat. Und danach betragen sich die Opfer jenseits der Oder-Neiße-Linie auf 400.000 und die aus der Tschechoslowakei auf 100.000. Hier gibt es einen Graubereich von Plus-Minus, der miteinbezogen worden ist, aber mehr als 500.000 bis 600.000 Opfer, auf mehr wollte man nicht kommen und hat auch nicht zusätzlich ausgewiesen. Interessant ist, dass in dieser Studie erstmals das Verfahren zur Anwendung gekommen ist, verbürgte Opfer, das heißt durch Zeugen verbürgte Opfer, aufzuspüren und eine Abkehr von der Bilanz zu betreiben

.

You're main argument is that Erika Steinbach has been expelled as a 2 year old infant when there were more than 14 millions driven off their land ?

"Their land" ? So you full believe that the milion German colonists in Poland sent by Nazis had right to "their land" taken from Poles ? Yes and my issue pretty clear is that there is something wrong when a child of occupying soldier is claiming it is a victim because it didn't get Polish land as promised by Hitler.

Your making unjustified monetary claims although we already paid reparations.

You never paid reperations.

So you're no better than they are.

I am sorry but there are no Polish organisation demanding return of Wilno, Lwow or Kresy. There are German organisations demanding return of Wroclaw, Pomorze etc.
Clearly you have a problem Poland doesn't have.

Wrong. Try again.

Really ? When did Polish government made any terrtitorial demands like numerous German organisations made towards Poland.

The BdV might be a hot topic in Poland but here in Germany they're just a group of people living in the past.

And fully funded by Bundestag year after year with highest German politicians giving them visits.

Poland's given this whole issue so much attention and reacted in such an out-of-proportion way that you gave those people a forum to talk in and way more attention than they deserve.

Oh those pesky Poles, why don't they just keep quiet when German revisionists attack them. Please be serious.

and people who are violating the constitution will be dealt with by the Bundesamt fuer Verfassungsschutz

Do you take me for an idiot ? Do you think I don't know that German constitution still has sentences about German borders in 1937 and German constitutional law gives special mention to borders from 1914.

[87522]

Do you think I don't know that German constitution still has sentences about German borders in 1937 and German constitutional law gives special mention to borders from 1914.

Source?

[Shade2]

http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/docs/german.htm

Unless otherwise provided by law, a German within the meaning of this Basic Law is a person who possesses German citizenship who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich, as it existed on December 31, 1937,

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimatvertriebene

Ein Heimatvertriebener ist, wer am 31. Dezember 1937 oder bereits einmal vorher seinen Wohnsitz in dem Gebiet desjenigen Staates hatte, aus dem er vertrieben worden ist (Vertreibungsgebiet) und dieses Gebiet vor dem 1. Januar 1993 verlassen hat; die Gesamtheit der ehemals unter fremder Verwaltung stehenden deutschen Ostgebiete und die Gebiete außerhalb der Grenzen des Deutschen Reiches nach dem Gebietsstande vom 31. Dezember 1937), die am 1. Januar 1914 zum Deutschen Reich oder zur Österreichisch-Ungarischen Monarchie oder zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt zu Polen, zu Estland, zu Lettland oder zu Litauen gehört haben, gilt als einheitliches Vertreibungsgebiet.

[87522]

The second text is from the Bundesvertriebenengesetz, not the constitution.

The first mentions the borders from 1937, true, but it's an awful translation.

Art. 116. (1) Deutscher im Sinne dieses Grundgesetzes ist vorbehaltlich anderweitiger gesetzlicher Regelung, wer die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit besitzt oder als Flüchtling oder Vertriebener deutscher Volkszugehörigkeit oder als dessen Ehegatte oder Abkömmling in dem Gebiete des Deutschen Reiches nach dem Stande vom 31. Dezember 1937 Aufnahme gefunden hat.

Paragraph 116.1 states that a German is someone who either posseses German citizenship or someone who, as a German refugee, a spouse or descendant of one, fled to the German Reich, as it existed in 1937.

All other German refugees from Eastern Europe (Heimatvertriebene) have different status, for which there is the Bundesvertriebenengesetz.

Saying that

German constitution still has sentences about German borders in 1937 and German constitutional law gives special mention to borders from 1914

distorts reality.

[M.ta]

That's what they've been trying for years now .

Don't get me wrong - I agree that every language should be regarded as an enrichment to whatever culture - but this step, though crude, is a desperate attempt at solving a serious problem in the German school system. As long as these children attend German public school, it think it's absolutely necessary for them to master the German language; if their parents want them to grow up knowing only Polish they could send them to Polish schools. Unfortunately, I don't know of any Poles that founded Polish schools in Germany; which would be possible, I think.

I get your point. Yet I still incline towards a softer solution.

[Shade2]

I don't know of any Poles that founded Polish schools in Germany; which would be possible, I think.

According to programm concerning this, they are more teachers of Chinese in German educational system then of Polish. At least that is the question that Polish parents received from authorities when they asked about possibility of Polish families having their kids study Polish in school.
When asked "is it because we are Polish" the office worker went silent and turned away his head from camera pointing at the door.
Very interesting.

[87522]

That's right, it is difficult to learn Polish in German secondary schools. But that's normaly because there isn't much demand for the subject - Languages like French, Italian, Spanish and even Russian, Turkish or Japanese are far more popular (at least where I live).

But it is possible to found foreign-language schools in Germany, there are for instance, a Japanese, a French and an American school (+ kindergardens) in the city where I live. So if there are really many Poles yearning for a possibility to educate their children in Polish, why not found a Polish school?

[Shade2]

According to Polish-German treaty both states should provide help for respective Polish and German population education and protection of native language.
Poland does its share and funds German in Polish schools.
They are 2,000,000 Poles in Germany.
Why don't they receive help from German state ?
Why are there organisations demanding territory from Germany's neighbours in Germany while they are none in Poland demandign territory lost to Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus.
Clearly it indicates that Germany hasn't come to terms with its nationalism and prejudice against Poles.

[87522]

Poland does its share and funds German in Polish schools.

I can only speak for the region in which I live, and there simply aren't enough Poles in our schools to justify Polish lessons... it wouldn't make sense with less that 5 students or so (+ those I know tend to be very integrated and speak flawless German). Might be different in regions with more Poles, I don't know.

Why are there organisations demanding territory from Germany's neighbours in Germany while they are none in Poland demandign territory lost to Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus.

As I already said, there are crackpots in every country, even in Poland.
And we're not proud of these organizations - believe it or not, there're relatively obscure. Those People are probably less anti-Polish than just seeing a possibility to make money out of their ancestors' former possesions in Poland.

The National Democrats are quite popular in Poland, aren't they? Saying that Germany has a problem with it's nationalism ignores the overall rising popularity of right-wing parties all over Europe (Le Pen, Haider, etc.), including your glorious nation.