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By kami321
#1124338
As of now - I am wondering what'd happen, as a joke if, say Russia or China would like to join USA as one of the states

If Russia joined US, it wouldn't matter that much for US, I think. The Russian economy is roughly the size of one average US state and Russian population isn't much bigger (to contribute to electoral college).


However, if China joined US and the Chinese could conspire to elect certain candidates - they would've easily taken control of American politics just through their sheer numbers. :D Of course this wouldn't mean much in terms of politics, since the Chinese-elected candidates would still have to promote the US interests and development of the economic centre in North America. Also the Chinese immigration to North America would double or tripple, and in some 10 years or so the majority of former US population, and all its institutions and corporations, would become Chinese. China should therefore be interested in joining US, it seems - it's an easy way to take over another country. :D

Well, I don't think it isn't obvious already really...

Yeah but now they kind of have an excuse - Russia is a competitor which maintains a separate alliance system and economic bloc, therefore US sort of has an excuse to develop military systems directed against Russia. If Russia was officially an ally of US and western Europe though, west Europeans would probably protest anything like this or further implementation of the Dulles' plan.
By Lost Angel
#1124355
If Russia was officially an ally of US and western Europe though, west Europeans would probably protest anything like this or further implementation of the Dulles' plan.
I don't think situation would've been any different - USA doesn't give much damn anyway anymore (now that there is no USSR to make it pee its panties) - would've come up with another reasoning, - like a military shield against Osama, allegedly conspiring a nuclear strike from some African country... I mean it is at this level of justification already. And EU just isn't strong and unified enough to do anything about it + over half of EU is already under USA with the rest not caring much.
Though honestly - I think merging of more countries into US, China, Russia (or any other big country-unit) would have probably fixed current situation on the international arena towards a single global state.
For now USA is simply consuming Arabs directly and EU through politics/money, China and Russia surly are blank spots at the moment, however.
User avatar
By alyster
#1124404
Lost Angel wrote:over half of EU is already under USA with the rest not caring much.


It's due to political games in side EU.
EU is basically a confederation: it has a parlament, however the European Comission members are apointed by countries. They are not from over EU elections. This gives more chances to smaller EU states. I mean who'd vote for a latvian or estonian EU president or PM canditate? England? Germany? France? Not in next 100 years, they only vote for themselves. So smaller EU states benefit from keeping the EU as a confederation not federation. However confederal EU is weaker then federal EU.

So to keep everything in balance many smaller EU states have to have good relations with the US: so not to depend on UK and France in international politics who can screw others over some EU budget issues. Secondly US is still the only EU friendly power in the world that can change the world if needed. So good relations are needed with the US. And US ofcourse needs it also to have support to it's world politics. New EU sends forces to fight US wars in Iraq and Afganistan and shows "international suport" to US iraqi politics, which is strongly needed for Bush. US for that helps out the new EU in some cases, like security.

You are right, the rest doesn't really give a shit. The Netherland and Belium, or Portugal...only things possibly intresting these people is their economy. They are surounded by the EU big states, who by securing their own security, secure other smaller nation's security's also. (Damn I said secure 4 times in one sentence :knife: ) They don't give a shit if Russian Su-s are flying above Estonia and crashing into Lithuania or not. Or if Greece is being over runed by Turkish army. Lets be frank, they don't give a shit about it if Poland is a target of Russian nukes.

Ofcourse UK, France and Germany are always playing their own game. But in overall EU and US are allies. And this is not to be forgotten.
By Lost Angel
#1124415
But in overall EU and US are allies. And this is not to be forgotten.
I don't think this is how master>slave relationship is normally called. I believe EU has about as much freedom in deciding not to do what US wants them to as Lithuania to have it's representative as an EU president... I feel that EU therefore is unable to pursue its own interests if they are contradicting US's interests. For example, EU does not have any need to send its troops to wherever US is fighting now. Romans, I think, had slaves in the army units... Though can't quote a source anymore... But I believe you get the point I am making. I'd prefer EU to have its interests primary to US's interests, which I do not think is currently the case.
By Shade2
#1124473
I feel that EU therefore is unable to pursue its own interests

EU is not a country, it has no interests really, there are only interest of its member states. There can be a interest that is common to all EU members and becomes a EU interest, although there can't be a interest that is common to all EU members and is an interest at conflict with USA, because Poland is an EU member :).
By kami321
#1124569
I don't think this is how master>slave relationship is normally called.

If EU states unite to form one country with one military and one foreign policy - it will overtake US and become the new "Evil Empire", which will be no better or worse than US is right now. In other words, EU has a potential to be a superpower.
By Shade2
#1124618
f EU states unite to form one country with one military and one foreign policy

It will never happen, countries making up EU are too different culturaly, politically and historically in order to agree on forming a country.

it will overtake US

EU is plagued by inefficiency and belief in failed economical systems. It will never overtake US.
User avatar
By soron
#1124876
It will never happen, countries making up EU are too different culturaly, politically and historically in order to agree on forming a country.


Some 25 year ago, some Italian politician got some headlines in the German tabloid press for making a rather insensitive comment during an interview, saying Germany was a divided country in fact, that it would remain devided that that this was just as it's supposed to be.

Looks like he was wrong. Times are changing.
By Shade2
#1124919
That's a very absurd comment. Germany is made basically of one ethnic group with the same language, was already one state before divided into two and has strong nationalism.
Europe never was a united state, is inhabited by countless different nationalities, and there is no european nationalism that influences people living in different parts of Europe.


Some 25 year ago, some Italian politician got some headlines in the German tabloid press for making a rather insensitive comment during an interview, saying Germany was a divided country in fact, that it would remain devided that that this was just as it's supposed to be.

Looks like he was wrong. Times are changing.


Oh, how cute, so you want Europe to become a German country. Well I am not surprised, and I hope you know that our politicians know quite well that Germans would like EU to become Germany.Not going to happen.
User avatar
By soron
#1124938
Oh, how cute, so you want Europe to become a German country.


When did I make that statement ? Countries who unite in a Union should be able to learn to live together - otherwise it would be pointless to join that Union in the first place. You knew Germany was a EU member when you decided to join so what's all that noise about ?
Your attitude reminds me of those people who build their house right in the approach of an airport because land is cheap there then start complaining about the noise of the aircraft who recklessly always fly right over their real estate. Get real!
By Shade2
#1124959
Countries who unite in a Union should be able to learn to live together

Yeah, why Germany can't live together with others, and beheaves like arrogant bully. Doesn't it know that EU has other members ?
You knew Germany was a EU member when you decided to join so what's all that noise about ?

You seem to have trouble comprehending that EU doesn't equal Germany and has several other members. Or have fantasies taken over your head and you live in future dreamland where Germany is the ruler of EU ?

Your attitude reminds me of those people who build their house right in the approach of an airport because land is cheap there then start complaining about the noise of the aircraft who recklessly always fly right over their real estate. Get real!

German attitude reminds me of bully who picked on other children in the class, and suddenly they all decided to defend themselfs and kicked his ass for good. When this happened he begged forgivness and they let him join the club they were forming. Sadly one kid was in hospital because the bully hurt him so. When he returned and he joined the club, the bully said "who let you in ?! I am making the rules now or else"...
Get real ! Be glad and thankfull that Europe and USA allowed your country to exist at all after what Germany did to Europe for two centuries. Had they been less mercifull you would be living in Rhine Neutral Zone, Bavarian Freestate, Republika Sorbska, Polska Strefa Berlińska or any other region the sad and pathetic attempt of German nationalists empire making called Nazi Reich would be divided into. So instead getting so arrogent, perhaps you should be nice, beheave and thank USA and Europe for letting your people keep that state you call Germany that was created in 1871.
Or is it too much to ask ? Afer all Germans said in recent poll that 40% think Nazism had "good sides". Perhaps the last lesson was too mild ?
User avatar
By soron
#1124978
Yeah, why Germany can't live together with others, and beheaves like an arrogant bully. Doesn't it know that EU has other members ?


For the last 6 decades we preferred words over weapons but perhaps you haven't noticed yet ? We were the pacesetter in many aspects it's true but when did we ever force anyone to follow ? I remember European countries shaking heads over those weirdo Germans and their "green party" and now look, we have Kyoto and a worldwide consensus that protecting the world we live in is a Good Thing.

You seem to have trouble comprehending that EU doesn't equal Germany and has several other members. Or have fantasies taken over your head and you live in future dreamland where Germany is the ruler of EU ?


You seem to have trouble comprehending that EU doesn't equal Germany and has several other members. So how do you think that in a political union which is running on more democratic rules than most there would be some kind of supreme ruler ?
Besides, I'm only supporting Dogbert in that office.

German attitude reminds me of bully who picked on other children in the class, and suddenly they all decided to defend themselfs and kicked his ass for good. When this happened he begged forgivness and they let him join the club they were forming. Sadly one kid was in hospital because the bully hurt him so. When he returned and he joined the club, the bully said "who let you in ?! I am making the rules now or else"...
Get real ! Be glad and thankfull that Europe and USA allowed your country to exist at all after what Germany did to Europe for two centuries. Had they been less mercifull you would be living in Rhine Neutral Zone, Bavarian Freestate, Republika Sorbska, Polska Strefa Berlińska or any other region the sad and pathetic attempt of German nationalists empire making called Nazi Reich would be divided into. So instead getting so arrogent, perhaps you should be nice, beheave and thank USA and Europe for letting your people keep that state you call Germany that was created in 1871.


I really think you haven't arrived in 21st century Europe yet. You take frontiers far too serious. Do you think anyone in France or Germany could imagine going to war over Alsace again ? Neither French nor Germans would see any point, the way the region both sides of the Rhine is interacting with each other, German children learning French in Kindergarten, people shopping both sides of the border, etc.

Afer all Germans said in recent poll that 40% think Nazism had "good sides". Perhaps the last lesson was too mild ?


Source ? 'Cause if I ask the right Poles I bet I could get 40% of those I ask say the same :roll:
User avatar
By alyster
#1124986
Afer all Germans said in recent poll that 40% think Nazism had "good sides". Perhaps the last lesson was too mild ?


These polls depend alot on how you ask the question. And who you ask.
Like if I'd ask were nazis good? I would never get 40%, not even 4% yes.
The awnsers would differ if I'd ask "Did the nazis have a good side?" or "Did the nazis have a good side also?" Not to mention if I'd ask "Were nazis good?" or "Did nazis have any good side (or were the purely evil on every aspect)?".
And if I'd ask jews only, I'd get 100% no probably, if I'd ask it from skinheads it would be vice-versa.

It depends alot on how the question was asked. Sometimes only changing few small words may change the poll upside down, while your survey idea remains the same. I'd very much like to see it too.

Secondly I don't know about how Germans manage to live with others, but I can't manage to live with Germans. These people call the cops on totally everything >: :muha2:
Last edited by alyster on 23 Feb 2007 14:57, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#1124989
For the last 6 decades we preferred words over weapons but perhaps you haven't noticed yet ?
You know, it is a little comfort that Germany continues to further its imperialistic goals by dictate of diplomacy and economy rather then war.

over those weirdo Germans and their "green party" and now look, we have Kyoto and a worldwide consensus that protecting the world we live in is a Good Thing.

Oh great, first Germans create communism and nazism, and now ecofundamentalism.All with the obligatory addition of "Wir Deutsche send die besten".Did anything good ever came out of Germany. Perhaps you if want some "good in World" try paying for devestation you made in Central Europe in World War 2 ? How about that ha ? Especially since your "Kyoto Treaty" costs us billions in money wasted.


So how do you think that in a political union which is running on more democratic rules than most there would be some kind of supreme ruler ?

I am just refering to your desire for this to come true. The fact that Germany is trying to increase its power through EU Constitution while limiting voting power of Poland and other smaller countries is obvious sing of its desires though.

I really think you haven't arrived in 21st century Europe yet.

Oh, and I am sure I will arrive there when I accept the German supremacy and leadership as well as vision of history.

Do you think anyone in France or Germany could imagine going to war over Alsace again ?

And neither do I imagine Germany trying to reconquer Polish territory that was returned from German control to Poland in 1945 like Silesia. However I see battles over history and politics by Germans every day.
Furthermore the comparision with France is absurd. France wasn't occupied by Germany for centuries, French weren't classified as subhumans by Germans, French capitol wasn't destroyed by Germans, non-existance of France wasn't the basic political goal of German policy(non-existance of Poland was to Germany, because it would sever connection with East Prussia which German people gained as result of crusade in Middle Ages),

German children learning French in Kindergarten,

There are 3 milion people of Polish descent in Germany. They can't learn Polish in German schools. They don't have status of ethnic minority despite the fact that Poles are living in Germany for centuries. They are 150,000 Germans in Poland, they have status of ethnic minority, they have German schools and can learn their language in Polish schools.


Source ?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/sto ... d=10423706

Four in ten Germans say the Nazis had some "good and bad aspects" but a growing majority feel shame for the Holocaust, according to a survey published by the Bertelsmann Foundation on Monday.


Are the Germans ashamed for two hundred years of efforts to destroy Polish nation ?
The 112-page report also found that two-thirds of Germans "absolutely agree" with the statement "I am ashamed that the Germans have committed so many crimes against the Jews", up from 60 per cent in 1991.


Do Germans feel ashamed for crimes made in the past 200 years against Poles ?
User avatar
By soron
#1125022
Do Germans feel ashamed for crimes made in the past 200 years against Poles ?


The only thing that would come to mind right away would be that agreement between the German and Austrian Emperors in 1916 to restore an independend Polish state. Afaik the Polish Kingdom was proclaimed in 1916 by the German Reich. :lol:
By Shade2
#1125054
The only thing that would come to mind right away would be that agreement between the German and Austrian Emperors in 1916 to restore an independend Polish state.

There was no such agreement. There was a declaration with vogue promise of future state of Poland. It was made to gain cannon fodder for German army from Polish recruits.
Afaik the Polish Kingdom was proclaimed in 1916 by the German Reich.

Nope, it wasn't. Germany never proclaimed any "Polish Kingdom" Learn history.
Germany held the option of annexing the whole Congress Poland, or in the best case annex 30,000 km of its territory from, at the same time ethnicly cleansing Polish and Jewish population from annexed territory-circa 2,000,000 people-to make room for German colonists. Any proposed state was to be in total control of German army and administrated by German officials and germanised in part by organised famines designed to reduce Polish population
The policies of Germany towards Polish people in WW1 are described in Immanuel Geiss, Der polnische Grenzstreifen 1914-1918. Lubeck, Hamburg: Matthiesen. 1960. Which I have in my collection of books.

You can also read on German policy here:
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/poland_walcott.htm
An Account of Germany's Treatment of Poland by U.S. Member of Commission to Poland, Frederick C. Walcott

This I have seen. I could not believe it unless I had seen it through and through.

For several weeks I lived with it; I went all about it and back of it; inside and out of it was shown to me - until finally I came to realize that the incredible was true. It is monstrous, it is unthinkable, but it exists. It is the Prussian system.

A year ago I went to Poland to learn its facts concerning the remnant of a people that had been decimated by war.

The country had been twice devastated. First the Russian army swept through it and then the Germans. Along the roadside from Warsaw to Pinsk, the present firing line, 230 miles, near half a million people had died of hunger and cold.

The way was strewn with their bones picked clean by the crows. With their usual thrift, the Germans were collecting the larger bones to be milled into fertilizer, but finger and toe bones lay on the ground with the mud-covered and rain-soaked clothing.

Wicker baskets were scattered along the way - the basket in which the baby swings from the rafter in every peasant home. Every mile there were scores of them, each one telling a death.

I started to count, but after a little I had to give it up, there were so many.

That is the desolation one saw along the great road from Warsaw to Pinsk, mile after mile, more than two hundred miles. They told me a million people were made homeless in six weeks of the German drive in August and September, 1915.

They told me four hundred thousand died on the way. The rest, scarcely half alive, got through with the Russian army. Many of these have been sent to Siberia; it is these people whom the Paderewski committee is trying to relieve.

In the refugee camps, 300,000 survivors of the flight were gathered by the Germans, members of broken families. They were lodged in jerry-built barracks, scarcely waterproof, unlighted, unwarmed in the dead of winter.

Their clothes, where the buttons were lost, were sewed on. There were no conveniences, they had not even been able to wash for weeks. Filth and infection from vermin were spreading. They were famished, their daily ration a cup of soup and a piece of bread as big as my fist.


In Warsaw, which had not been destroyed, a city of one million inhabitants, one of the most prosperous cities of Europe before the war, the streets were lined with people in the pangs of starvation.

Famished and rain-soaked, they squatted there, with their elbows on their knees or leaning against the buildings, too feeble to lift a hand for a bit of money or a morsel of bread if one offered it, perishing of hunger and cold. Charity did what it could. The rich gave all that they had, the poor shared their last crust. Hundreds of thousands were perishing.

Day and night the picture is before my eyes - a people starving, a nation dying.

In that situation, the German commander issued a proclamation. Every able-bodied Pole was bidden to Germany to work. If any refused, let no other Pole give him to eat, not so much as a mouthful, under penalty of German military law.

This is the choice the German Government gives to the conquered Pole, to the husband and father of a starving family: Leave your family to die or survive as the case may be. Leave your country which is destroyed, to work in Germany for its further destruction. If you are obstinate, we shall see that you surely starve.


Staying with his folk, he is doomed and they are not saved; the father and husband can do nothing for them, he only adds to their risk and suffering. Leaving them, he will be cut off from his family, they may never hear from him again nor he from them.

Germany will set him to work that a German workman may be released to fight against his own land and people. He shall be lodged in barracks, behind barbed wire entanglements, under armed guard. He shall sleep on the bare ground with a single thin blanket. He shall be scantily fed and his earnings shall be taken from him to pay for his food.

That is the choice which the German Government offers to a proud, sensitive, high strung people. Death or slavery.


When a Pole gave me that proclamation, I was boiling. But I had to restrain myself. I was practically the only foreign civilian in the country and I wanted to get food to the people. That was what I was there for and I must not for any cause jeopardize the undertaking.

I asked Governor General von Beseler "Can this be true?"

"Really, I cannot say," he replied, "I have signed so many proclamations; ask General von Kries."

Statement of Generals von Kries

So I asked General von Kries. "General, this is a civilized people. Can this be true?"

"Yes," he said, "it is true" - with, an air of, "Why not?"

I dared not trust myself to speak; I turned to go. "Wait," he said. And he explained to me how Germany, official Germany, regards the state of subject peoples.

Even now I find it hard to describe in comprehensible terms the mind of official Germany, which dominates and shapes all German thought and action. Yet it is as hard, as clear-cut, as real as any material thing.

I saw it in Poland, I saw the same thing in Belgium, I hear of it in Serbia and Rumania. For weeks it was always before me, always the same. Officers talked freely, frankly, directly. All the staff officers have the same view.

Let me try to tell it, as General von Kries told me, in Poland, in the midst of a dying nation. Germany is destined to rule the world, or at least a great part of it. The German people are so much human material for building the German state, other people do not count. All is for the glory and might of the German state. The lives of human beings are to be conserved only if it makes for the state's advancement, their lives are to be sacrificed if it is to the state's advantage.

The state is all, the people are nothing.

Conquered people signify little in the German account. Life, liberty, happiness, human sentiment, family ties, grace and generous impulse, these have no place beside the one concern, the greatness of the German state.

Starvation must excite no pity; sympathy must not be allowed, if it hampers the main design of promoting Germany's ends.

"Starvation is here," said General von Kries. "Candidly, we would like to see it relieved; we fear our soldiers may be unfavourably affected by the things that they see. But since it is here, starvation must serve our purpose. So we set it to work for Germany. By starvation we can accomplish in two or three years in East Poland more than we have in West Poland, which is East Prussia, in the last hundred years. With that in view, we propose to turn this force to our advantage."

"This country is meant for Germany," continued the keeper of starving Poland. "It is a rich alluvial country which Germany has needed for some generations. We propose to remove the able-bodied working Poles from this country. It leaves it open for the inflow of German working people as fast as we can spare them. They will occupy it and work it."

Then with a cunning smile, "Can't you see how it works out? By and by we shall give back freedom to Poland. When that happens Poland will appear automatically as a German province."

In Belgium, General von Bissing told me exactly the same thing. "If the relief of Belgium breaks down we can force the industrial population into Germany through starvation and colonize other Belgians in Mesopotamia, where we have planned large irrigation works; Germans will then overrun Belgium. Then when the war is over and freedom is given back to Belgium, it will be a German Belgium that is restored. Belgium will be a German province and we have Antwerp - which is what we are after."

In Poland, the able-bodied men are being removed to relieve the German workman and make the land vacant for Germany. In Belgium, the men are deported that the country may be a German colony. In Serbia, where three-fourths of a million people out of three millions have perished miserably in the last three years, Germany hardens its heart, shuts its eyes to the suffering, thinks only of Germany's gain.

In Armenia, six hundred thousand people were slain in cold blood by Kurds and Turks under the domination and leadership of German officers - Germany looking on, indifferent to the horror and woe, intent only on seizing the opportunity thus given.

War, famine, pestilence - these bring to the German mind no appeal for humane effort, only the resolution to profit from them to the utmost that the German state may be powerful and great.


That is not all. Removing the men, that the land may be vacant for German occupation, that German stock may replace Belgians, Poles, Serbians, Armenians, and now Rumanians, Germany does more. Women left captive are enslaved. Germany makes all manner of lust its instrumentality.

The other day a friend of mine told me of a man just returned from Northern France. "I cannot tell you the details," he said, "man to man, I don't want to repeat what I heard."

Some of the things he did tell - shocking mutilation and moral murder. He told of women, by the score, in occupied territory of Northern France, prisoned in underground dungeons, tethered for the use of their bodies by officers and men.

If this is not a piece of the Prussian system, it is the logical product of disregard of the rights of others.

Such is the German mind as it was disclosed to me in several weeks' contact with officers of the staff. Treaties are scraps of paper, if they hinder German aims. Treachery is condoned and praised, if it falls in with German interest. Men, lands, countries are German prizes. Populations are to be destroyed or enslaved so Germany may gain. Women are Germany's prey, children are spoils of war.

God gave Germany the Hohenzollern and together they are destined to rule Europe and, eventually, the world - thus reasons the Kaiser.

Coolly, deliberately, officers of the German staff, permeated by this monstrous philosophy, discuss the denationalization of peoples, the destruction of nations, the undoing of other civilizations, for Germany's account.

In all the world such a thing has never been. The human mind has never conceived the like. Even among barbarians, the thing would be incredible. The mind can scarcely grasp the fact that these things are proposed and done by a modern government professedly a Christian government in the family of civilized nations.

This system has got to be rooted out. If it takes everything in the world, if it takes every one of us, this abomination must be overthrown. It must be ended or the world is not worth living in.

No matter how long it takes, no matter how much it costs, we must endure to the end with agonized France, with imperilled Britain, with shattered Belgium, with shaken Russia.

We must hope that Germany will have a new birth as Russia is being reborn. We must pray, as we fight against the evil that is in Germany, that the good which is in Germany may somehow prevail.

We must trust that in the end a Germany really great with the strength of a wonderful race may find its place as one of the brotherhood of nations in the new world that is to be.

Source: Source Records of the Great War, Vol. IV, ed. Charles F. Horne, National Alumni 1923


This is the "freedom" Germans gave to Poles. I might recall earlier torture of Polish children in Wrzesnia, laws forbidding Poles to build homes, settlement of hundreds of thousands of Germans on Polish lands to make them German in Silesia, Poznan, Pomerania, laws banning Polish language and more.
This is a common knowledge. But as you show, not in Germany that bloats itself in its nationalistic visions of German "virtues" and "gifts" to the world. Perhaps this last word is true-Germany gave a lot of "gifts" to others, Poles and Jews especially, but only if you use the word in German meaning-gift after all means poison in German language.
User avatar
By The Antiist
#1125225
Shade2 wrote:The only country able to resist Russia is USA. Thus any closer alliance with USA makes Poland safer.

You're implying Russia forms an imminent threat. Why is that?

Shade2 wrote:Yeah, right in the same way Germany would claim Israel is its "traditional zone of influence" because of Holocaust. The only connection Poland has to Russia is the fact that Russia invaded us, murdered our people and exploited our country.

The history between two nations is truly not necessarily on a personal level. The Soviet Union is the past. There are other people in charge now with a drastically different approach of foreign policy and political philosophy. Clinging on to a wrongful reality psychologically is a compulsive way of integrating reality. In other words, treating perceived enemies as your enemy would indeed eventually provoke hostile behaviour in such a manner that such a person could (once again) become your enemy.

I think the truth of the problem is far more past-related and far more concrete than you're suggesting it is.
By Shade2
#1125243
You're implying Russia forms an imminent threat. Why is that?


There are other people in charge now with a drastically different approach of foreign policy and political philosophy.

Excuse me ? Russia is a country where journalists are murdered on regular basis, press freedom is something rationed by government, a state believed by NGO's to be conducting ethnic cleansing in Chechnya, it supplies rogue states with weapons and moral support. It openly blackmails others by energy and its politicians readily declare their intentions to control countries in Central Europe. Why shouldn't it be perceived as a threat ? Its policy is imperialistic and authoriarian.
User avatar
By alyster
#1125255
You're implying Russia forms an imminent threat. Why is that?


I suggest you read the headline of the topic. ;)

There are other people in charge now


And where did they come from?

Putin - ex KGB
Sergey Lavrov - Soviet ambassador to UN
Sergei Ivanov - ex KGB
Mikhail Fradkov - worker in soviet embassy in India

People are still the same. You can not find so many strong leaders in so short time, but the products of the old system.
User avatar
By The Antiist
#1125311
Shade2 wrote:Russia is a country where journalists are murdered on regular basis,

Source?

press freedom is something rationed by government,

Perhaps a good indication of historic 'tradition', but certainly not imperialistic ambition.

it supplies rogue states with weapons and moral support.

I do have a problem with weapon trade, but Russia isn't particularly a pioneer in this. I'm not sure whether they're even morally supporting anybody, they, just like plenty of other countries, are simply placing capitalism above morality. I'm not suggesting it is right, but I wouldn't discriminate Russia for it.

It openly blackmails others by energy

It actually simply does business with countries like European countries on this. It's an agreement in which both parties of the deal profit from.

and its politicians readily declare their intentions to control countries in Central Europe.

Source?

alyster wrote:I suggest you read the headline of the topic.

Granted, but these are yet simply respondings from a political move. Labeling it an imminent threat would, firstly, be merely caused by this particular political move and would secondly mean Russia is basically on the verge of engaging in a military conflict which is simply not the case.

And where did they come from?

Putin - ex KGB
Sergey Lavrov - Soviet ambassador to UN
Sergei Ivanov - ex KGB
Mikhail Fradkov - worker in soviet embassy in India

People are still the same. You can not find so many strong leaders in so short time, but the products of the old system.

I wish I could counter you on this, but my ignorance would again betray myself. Perhaps I will look into this some other time. But regardless, these names you've named weren't the Russian generals who made those threats, weren't they?

Your taxes pay for the UN more than any other c[…]

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