The three Europes - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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By soron
#1149623
Huh ? This is an old map, not even describing any ethnic groups.


Oh so suddenly the map is old and lacks ethnic groups ? You wanted to know where the Germans were during the Battle of Legnica in 1241. Of course the map is old, it's been a couple of years since :lol:

But it is amusing to see your nationalistic posts-claims that Holy Roman Empire was "Germany" are standard dish on the German revisionist menu. I wonder though how do poor Italians and Czechs would feel about that. As a Pole I know how I feel when you point to Polish inhabited territores like Silesia which were sadly part of Holy Roman Empire with shouting "Germans !". Are you claiming Poles, Czechs and Italians are Germans ?


No that was your suggestion. I'm merely showing you what the map looked like back then, and obviously you didn't know, saying from the way you're trying to make up lame excuses.
All those territories were under the nominal control of the German Emperor. Of couse you can choose to claim those were NOT Germans, but in that case I'm afraid I would use your own argument to show that "those were NOT Germans" if you come up with another story of old how Poland was mistreated :)

You claim Italy, Poland, Czechoslovakia as Germany ? As far as I know Germany is an artificial creation of XIX century Prussian imperalism and nationalistic myths created by romantic propagandists.It would be better if it would be dissolved by Allies after WW1 and WW2-too bad it didn't happen as those natonalistic myths are highly infectious and give self-proclaimed "Germans' a disturbing fever and seizures especially towards Poles and Czechs.


I'm sure this is interesting for somebody but we're still talking about a medieval map here.
By Shade2
#1149661
You wanted to know where the Germans were during the Battle of Legnica in 1241.

And the map is relevant in which way ? It doesn't show composition of order of battle in said battle, neither does it show any ethnic groups.

Of course the map is old, it's been a couple of years since

The map is from 1908 if I am correct-from period of ultranationalism of Germany. I have my reservations at taking it at face value.
I'm merely showing you what the map looked like back then, and obviously you didn't know,

Huh ? What are you talking about-I never made a comment about maps from 1908.

saying from the way you're trying to make up lame excuses.

What execuses ?

All those territories were under the nominal control of the German Emperor.

And General Gouvernment was under direct control of Adolf Hitler. Your point ? Do you claim all people that found themselfs under German rule become Germans ?:lol: Besides the map is outdated and I doubt its accuracy.
Not to mention that at the time of the
Besides what is your source that there was a "German Emperor" rather then "Emperor of Holy Roman Empire"

Not to mention that Silesia became part of Holy Roman Empire only in 1335, circa 106 after rhe battle :lol:
Ah another poor victim of German education system :D
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-90 ... 23012.hook
Polish Slask , Czech Slezsko , German Schlesien historic region that is now in southwestern Poland. Silesia was originally a Polish province that became a possession of the Bohemian crown in 1335, passed with that crown to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526, was taken by Prussia in 1742, and was returned to Poland in 1945.

And as can be clearly seen here Poland was in possesion of those territories during the battle:
http://www.piastowie.kei.pl/piast/mapy/11.htm


Of couse you can choose to claim those were NOT Germans

I don't have to 'claim' I am sitting right next to scholary book from 21st century that speaks clearly Silesia wasn't Germanised till XVII century...

I'm sure this is interesting for somebody but we're still talking about a medieval map here.

This map is from 1908...


Next time-try to read some decent history book German. By decent I don't mean German book though. :lol:
User avatar
By Zel
#1149688
[Sarcasm on]
In behalf of the Austrian Emperor we thank both Poles and Germans to have preserved our later crownlands Bohemia and Silesia from the Mongol hordes.
[Sarcasm off]

While history is nice and interesting and teaches us much remaining in our past and reliving the errors and problems of our ancestors wont advance us at all.
By BleedingHeartNorwegian
#1150993
European peoples have long been fed with panaceas and welfare state myths; not only will these myths lead to an unpleasant awakening but they are deeply immoral and racist of nature. The German – French economic model collapsed in front of the booming American consumerism, and the rise of great markets in China, India and soon in Brazil. The European myth composers had not taken the rise of the Global economy into consideration, and their answer has been to raise barriers, forming the legendary European fortress.


Can you elaborate om that? Actually, by most accounts, quality of life is just as high in the western european countries as in the USA og Japan. Actually, in Singapore, many do not have sex because life there is so stressfull. Guess that the author of the article sits confortable in a private sector office jobs. Most people living in those countries do not see their countries collapsing. Actually, german economy growth have really taken pace the last months.

And what is this hogwash with racsim? The only considerable barriers those countries have are against agricultural products, and those barriers are considerable in welfare state less USA and Japan also. And there is actually possible that countries like India and China will also become welfare states as they grow richer. Both countries have traditions for socialist parties amd movements in a much earler part of their development than Europe, and it is very propable that Brazil will become a european style welfare state over time.

It shoud also be mentioned that muslim voters are THE mest welfare state friendly voting block in the european countries. Around 75 percent of all muslims vote socialist or socialdemocrat. Actually, the fact that some muslims that make it goes rightwing, do seem to create the same culture you see among the blacks in the USA, that those that become rich with legitimate means becomes frown upon as "betrayers" by those muslim immigrants that stay relatively poor.

Also, why is economic globalization right? Even if you have some barriers, much trade will still trickle thru, enough to stimulate the poor countries out of poverty. Globalization is really elitism, making it more difficult for the working class and to a greater degree the middle class to keep pace with the wealth of the upper middle class and the rich. But I guess that the writer of this article have a pretty confortable income. Talking about what is "fair trade", the indian professionals are able to live on such globally high low wages by paying low wages to the poor people. Just a having import duties and restrictions can be considered unfair, using low wages and low wages to compete can also be considered unfair.
User avatar
By soron
#1151826
Can i get my response, please?


The image link seems to be dead.

Anyway let's use this map which isn't of German origin so hopefully it won't be mistrusted - not that I would care about that, just making the point that a map is a map since it's showing the same thing:
Image

The point I was making was that at that time, all those regions (for example Bohemia) Shade2 claimed were not German did in fact belong to the German empire aka Holy Roman Empire.
Also this nonsensical debate about the nationality of Bavarian miners ... Ryanair wasn't in business yet back then and most people hardly ever travelled beyond that mountain range that made their horizon. Of course they were Bavarian nationals.

Was that the response you were asking for or did I misunderstand the question ?
User avatar
By droodle
#1153264
Thanks for yourresponse, but I really meant a response by Shade2 to my defense of my previous vision of the 4th Europe.

Anyway, to talk about German in any sense (other than the german tribes, which include many tribes such as the franks, the longobardians and the visigoths, if I'm not mistaken) is useless. There was no thing that made up such a thing as a german identity. Languages differed, customs differed, and the state makeup differed. There was no sense of belonging to a german empire or state.
User avatar
By soron
#1153743
There was no thing that made up such a thing as a german identity.


That's the point exactly. The map only shows the outer political border. Yet "Germany" was in fact made of an incredible patchwork of mini-fiefdoms, while the emperor was becoming more and more powerless.
That resulted in 2 things: The general idea of a "German" idendity arose only late because it was surpressed by the German noblesse AND Germany's neighbors (such as France, Sweden, Habsburg-Austria, Russia) who feared a united Germany and liked it just the way it was. The Thirty Year's war is a nice example how European politics played out on German soil.

So when "National Awakening" happened in Germany in the 19th century (later than elsewhere) it had to overcome a lot of obstacles. And it is unfortunate that it could only happen as a result of a victorious war against France, because THAT had an immediate and incredible impact on the German bourgeoisie, established the military as protector and keeper of the German national idendity.
Between 1871 and 1914 there was a vast culture of reservist unions or military associations, the military enjoyed vast prestige and military service for the country became a question of self-image in the German bourgeoisie.

History might have been different if the German unity wouldn't have been the result of a war.
By ZeusIrae
#1153778
"The European economy has been the victim of highly ideologized French dirigisme,"
WTF?It's the opposite.The french are complaining that europe is too liberal;That guy's crazy.


Credibility=0
User avatar
By droodle
#1153977
how could they fear a united germany if there wasnt a common germn identity?
By unknown_GR
#1198343
this guy is a joke, he left greece to join some islamic organisations, dont take it seriously. in the 80's he was writing pro-Iranian articles in the economical tachidromos in greece and he was kicked out for his low quality of his papers.

he is pro-arab, probably he fancies saddam and homeini.
By kami321
#1198977
First off, why "Berlin / London axis", why "center at Brusseles", why "Berlin-Moscow axis"?
These words make no sense to me, so let me rephrase/summarize the "three Europes" based on what the article describes:
1. American Dream Europe / success of European "liberalism"
Happy-hippy Euramericans unite everyone on the Old Continent in the grand pursuit of a_whole_bunch of_empty_words such as liberty, justice, freedom, individualism, etc. There are no more national wars, no more moral principles and boundaries, no more nations and no more peoples, only one race of insatiable stockholders and money makers.
2. American Dream backfires on Europe / European liberalism is unsuccessful
In attempt to pursue American values, the Europeans are challenged with growing Muslim immigration and domestic dissent bordering on terrorism. Nationalism doesn't wither away easily, conflicts remain unsolved, GDP isn't growing very well, Russia and her alliance bloc remain resilient. Yet Europe doesn't give up and continues to pretend pursuing liberal values!
3. Russian Dream Europe / strong conservative revival
For one reason or another Europeans decide that they no longer want to pursue liberal internationalism and instead they go back to more traditional right-wing conservatism. This process probably begins in Eastern Europe like in Russia and the Balkans, then continues on to central and western Europe. This does not have to lead to decline in relations with US, but probably will, eventually. Europe then switches its philosophy from "money-making" to "spiritual money-making" and under Russian leadership goes on to crusade against the Muslims, Chinese, Jews, Americans, or anyone else deemed a "threat" to European "culture" (which ceased to exist long ago).


I can't say which one of the scenarios is more likely to take place, but I guess something in between first and second option would be a fair guess.


But if we ignore the likelihood of these things happening, then just to be fair there should be at least 4th and 5th options, listed below.
4. Russian Dream backfires on Europe / conservative failure
The revival of right-wing conservatism doesn't lead to pan-Europeans unification against Muslims or any other foreigners, instead it leads to revival of bitter nationalism and mutual antagonism. At first Poland and Russia do their best to piss off each other, then Serbia and Croatia, then Germany joins in and France and Britain. As a result all hopes for a EU collapse, wars continue and lead to even more wars. US sighs at European sillyness and occasionally intervenes to protect its market interests.
5. United Socialist Europe / success of Marxism
The anti-capitalist movement somehow manages to gain significant success and eventually leads to revival of "Leninist tyrrany" [(c) DumbTeen]. TV and internet entertainment fails to satisfy the workers any more, until a communist revolution sweeps the continent, or at least part of it. This leads to hardline backslash everywhere else and makes the revival of fascism likely, possibly leading to a new world war or cold war.

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