[Shade2]

But we do refer to France's third republic, or Weimar's republic. We make the distinction when there has been a change of state.

The country remains the same, and the fact that post-war Germany quickly used Nazis that mass murdered Poles as respected politicians protecting them from justice, speaks poorly about its attempt to disconnect from Nazi past. Not to mention paying compensations to country that for 200 years experienced terror, ethnic cleansing, discrimination from German hands.

Because your government voluntarily included the region in a list of environmentally protected regions.

Really ? When ? My gouvernment never did such thing.

How could a trial be turned down by an entity with no sovereignty?

West Germany was formed in 1949...

And finally, neither did I claim that germans had no need to correct the wrongdoings of their ancestors.

Good, then I hope you underestand I have no euphoria for a state that made mass murderers respected politicians and never paid for devestation of my country.

And this year? upwards of 17%.

Actually in 2006 it was 10,6 not 17%. As you see Poland had easly higher growth of industral production without EU. Your argument is only fit for thrash.

[SimpleRules]

The EU shouldn't have a say in any domestic policy, do you let your neighbours control what wallpaper you put up?

Why should the EU have any power to block a road being built in a soviergn nation?

[Zel]

Actually in 2006 it was 10,6 not 17%. As you see Poland had easly higher growth of industral production without EU. Your argument is only fit for thrash.

What is this BS about comparing data from 2006 to 2004 or 2002 or whatever year since Poland applied for membership within the Union. A considerable part of foreign investment was done solely out of the prospect that Poland would sooner or later join the EU.
Same applies to internally reforming the Polish economy and burocracy as the pressure applied during the accession process was one of the main reasons why those were carried out that fast and therefore set the stage for Polands economy recovering after it went down the drain in the 80ties and early 90ties.

The EU shouldn't have a say in any domestic policy, do you let your neighbours control what wallpaper you put up?

Why should the EU have any power to block a road being built in a soviergn nation?

Because that nation has agreed to share its sovereignity in certain aspects including environmental habitats.

[Shade2]

What is this BS about comparing data from 2006 to 2004 or 2002 or whatever year since Poland applies for membership within the Union.quote]
Hehe, I simply corrected mistake by andres.
As to dates I gave data from 1997-Poland had easly high growth well before any serious entry talks to EU.

Same applies to internally reforming the Polish economy and burocracy as the pressure applied during the accession process was one of the main reasons why those were carried out that fast and therefore set the stage for Polands economy recovering after it went down the drain in the 80ties and early 90ties.

Yes I am sure useless regulations and enviroment laws helped us to grow by wasting money.

Frankly I would prefer Germany just gave at least 530 billion euro of compensations for destruction of Poland. I think we would use it wisely.
Perhaps a Museum to Crimes against Polish Nation in Berlin ?
It would document the history of Polish-German relations.
Btw-nice of Germans to face up the past-I don't recall them ever making such monument. Instead they fund organisations like BdV composed of many former Nazis that cry because they didn't get to continue Drang nach Osten in Polish lands and had to return to Germany...

[Zel]

As to dates I gave data from 1997-Poland had easly high growth well before any serious entry talks to EU.

Doesnt change a thing. The accession process had already started by then and it was quite clear that Poland had set the direction to join.

Yes I am sure useless regulations and enviroment laws helped us to grow by wasting money.

Sure as if Poland hadnt had its own regulations back then.
And my you are expected to do something for your own health. I know that environmentalism is a concept hard to grasp after living within the Soviet sphere of influence for that long. Poor ever mistreated Poles

[Andres]

The country remains the same

The country did not remain the same. Neither in geographical, political, ambitions, or foreign policy terms.

Really ? When ? My gouvernment never did such thing.

I imagine somewhere in the 90's, but I have no real desire to go look. Why dont you explain under which circumstances it came to be in the Natura 2000 list? All I read was the following

Poland included the Rospuda valley in the Natura 2000 list on its own initiative, as a special protected area for birds and part of the Augustowska Forest Habitat.

Source

West Germany was formed in 1949...

There, you see, the state did change. The persons you refer to could have been tried under allied occupation, go complain about them for a while.

Your argument is only fit for thrash.

I wonder what that makes of yours? Still no supporting evidence I see. Oh, and I did make a mistake, apparently in January 2007 it was 15.6% not 17%. In 2000 it was of about 7.1%, and in 1999 of about 4.4%.

[Shade2]

Neither in geographical, political, ambitions, or foreign policy terms.

Ambitions roughly the same-German nationalism and arrogance combined with desire to dominate Europe. Politically also similiar, Nazis responsible for murdering Poles continued to be respected politicians. Geographically still continuing to control territories gained from Slavs. Foreign Policy-continued domination of Europe, this time with diplomatic and economic means.

So you are saying Germany has no responsibilites and no obligations to its former victims ? Not very respectable attitude.

Poland included the Rospuda valley in the Natura 2000 list on its own initiative, as a special protected area for birds and part of the Augustowska Forest Habitat.

This wasn't mine government.

There, you see, the state did change.

The country remained the same. And didn't Germany declare to settle responsibilites from its attempts of genocide ? And the same time protecting Nazis and never helping its victims to recover ? Sounds like hypocrasy.

The persons you refer to could have been tried under allied occupation, go complain about them for a while.

The Allies had 3 years. Germany had tens of them. It continued to protect Nazis responsible for mass murder of tens of thousands of Poles. Not only that-they were respected politicians and people elected them to power. What should I think of Germans if they liked Nazi war criminals and murderers of Poles so much they elected them to power ?

Oh, and I did make a mistake, apparently in January 2007 it was 15.6% not 17%.

Pff, you said year. Not a month of a year. Who knows maybe in month x of year 1996 it was 18? I don't know.Its the years we were talking about.

The accession process had already started by then and it was quite clear that Poland had set the direction to join.

Actually the accession talks process started in December 1997 after Luxemburg so your argument that growth was due to that accession talks is just worth to sit near any other junk in thrash. Unless from 12 December to 31 December 1997 Polish growth accelerated by 1000% or so

[Andres]

Ambitions roughly the same-German nationalism and arrogance

False.

This wasn't mine government.

Well then, this absolves any lingering comment you had on current day Germans.

The country remained the same.

That's just a retarded position. There were even two states where there used to be one.

The Allies had 3 years.

Indeed, so go complain to them.

Pff, you said year. Not a month of a year.

Indeed I said year. In this case I refer to the annual measurement released in January 2007.

Actually the accession talks process started in December 1997 after Luxemburg so your argument that growth was due to that accession talks is just worth to sit near any other junk in thrash.

Well, thank you for helping to strengthen my point. In 1997 accession talks begin, there is a flurry of initial foreign investment in the country expecting to capitalize when Poland finally joins.

Ah, I see no evidence yet for your position. Well, I guess I should just take your word for it that Poland has had a terrible time while in the EU due to a series of foreseeable circumstances, which again just reflects poorly on your country.

[Shade2]

False.

True-Germans exhibit the same arrogance and nationalism only through different tools. They boast how they dealt with the past unlike any other(by protecting Nazi murderers and electing them to power and never paying for destruction of Poland), how they are better then Americans, how they lead EU etc.

Well then, this absolves any lingering comment you had on current day Germans.

Yes I used that to show how absurd your claim was.

That's just a retarded position. There were even two states where there used to be one.

So Germany feels no responsibilty for previous Germany ? Why then mentions Nazi Germany as its former form in constitution and law when i

In 1997 accession talks begin, there is a flurry of initial foreign investment in the country expecting to capitalize when Poland finally joins. [/quote]
Oh yes in 18 days a flurry of foreign investment was made. Because the talks started were started in 12 December...
LOL

Ah, I see no evidence yet for your position.

Well the minor point that Poland had high Industrial growth rate well before EU accession.
Its not like Poles are untermenschen and need superior German s with their EU to grow food and work.
Oh I forgot, you are from Germany so it is possible you have different opinion...

[Andres]

True-Germans exhibit the same arrogance and nationalism only through different tools.

Then they are a small minority in germany.

Yes I used that to show how absurd your claim was.

Except that there has been no change of state in between this decision and the present day.

So Germany feels no responsibilty for previous Germany ?

Again, I never claimed that.

Oh yes in 18 days a flurry of foreign investment was made. Because the talks started were started in 12 December...

And where those talks started out of the blue, maybe by random spontaneity, I'm sure they were not planned and announced well in advanced.

Well the minor point that Poland had high Industrial growth rate well before EU accession.

No. Your claim that EU has hurt Poland more than it has benefited it. I know your mind immediately jump to Nazis and communists, but you might want to reconsider how this argument started in the first place.

Oh I forgot, you are from Germany so it is possible you have different opinion...

Again, you show your irrationality. That the location tag to the left of my posts states Location: Germany, does not mean I am from Germany, nor does it mean that I was raised here. In fact, I did not start to learn German until less than 4 years ago, nor do I have any german ancestor. It merely records my current geographical position.

[Shade2]

Then they are a small minority in germany.

Really how can you tell ? Last time I saw circa 40% of Germans said Nazism had good sides for example. So I wouldn't say they are "small minority"

Again, I never claimed that.

So does it feel or doesn't it feel ?

And where those talks started out of the blue, maybe by random spontaneity, I'm sure they were not planned and announced well in advanced

I really don't know. But investors wouldn't invest just because talks that will take many, many years will start.

your claim that EU has hurt Poland more than it has benefited it.

Really ? Please show me the precise quote. What I am only saying is that its completely unfounded to claim EU helped in any significant way in growth of Poland that couldn't be copyied outside EU. Also the influence of EU has also potentially limited growth by forcing us to spend money on useless projects and imposing certain regulations.

It merely records my current geographical position.

Does it represent your political sympathies ?

[Andres]

Really how can you tell ? Last time I saw circa 40% of Germans said Nazism had good sides for example. So I wouldn't say they are "small minority"

Well, noting that certainly does not make a rational argument that a large percentage of germans would feel as you think they feel. Nazi Germany did have good aspects, it is simply that the bad so overwhelm those good aspects that only a small minority would want such a system back. I 'can tell' by the small number of germans who vote for a party which would advocate such a vision.

So does it feel or doesn't it feel ?

While I believe it does, you should, first, not propose strawman arguments, and second try to stay within the purviews of a discussion.

But investors wouldn't invest just because talks that will take many, many years will start.

Of course some will do. Some will feel the inherent risk to be offset by possible benefits, like cheaper land on which to build a factory which will surely rise once many other companies establish themselves there, or like the benefit of having a well developed and in place system of distribution, etc., for when the ascension came. Some will not want to take the risk at the time and wait to make such an investment closer or after ascension. An increase in FDI around that time, which would decrease again, only to rise once the ascension date neared seems a more than rational outcome.

What I am only saying is that its completely unfounded to claim EU helped in any significant way in growth of Poland that couldn't be copyied outside EU. Also the influence of EU has also potentially limited growth by forcing us to spend money on useless projects and imposing certain regulations.

It is the second part of your argument which allows one to draw the conclusion that you feel Poland is worse off. In the first place you claim being in the EU has not helped in any significant way to the development of Poland, and in the second place, you claim that it has in fact limited growth, which would imply a total negative outcome.

[euglena]

Nazi Germany did have good aspects, it is simply that the bad so overwhelm those good aspects that only a small minority would want such a system back

Read Guenther Grass' Crabwalk - it was controversial because it was one of the first publications talking about the German experience and some positive aspects of the Nazi era (KdA etc)

Also I don't know what these would do:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6493081.stm

EU leaders call for rapid reforms

Berliners were treated to fireworks at the Brandenburg Gate
EU leaders have adopted a declaration calling for some of the reforms proposed in the bloc's ill-fated constitution to be carried out by 2009.
The "Berlin Declaration" was issued to mark 50 years of the union, which was founded by the 1957 Treaty of Rome.

It says the EU should be placed on a "renewed common basis" before the 2009 elections to the European Parliament.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said a conference to agree a new treaty could be held later this year.

The ceremonies came after a night of revelry in the German capital, with a gala concert and a lavish dinner.

Street parties were taking place in Berlin on the Sunday while capital cities across the EU have been celebrating since Friday with rock concerts, raves and special late-night museum openings.

A "European Village" opened in the heart of Rome's historic centre, which has been shut off to traffic for the occasion.

Divisive issues

The Berlin Declaration looks back to a time before the EU, when Europe, it says, was "an idea, holding out hope of peace and understanding".

BERLIN DECLARATION
The unnatural division of Europe is now consigned to the past
We, the citizens of the European Union, have united for the better
We preserve in the European Union the identities and diverse traditions of its member states
We are united in our aim of placing the EU on a renewed common basis before the European Parliament elections in 2009


EU faces months of wrangling
Berlin Declaration: Full text
It contrasts the previous eras of war and division with the peaceful times since the formation of the union.

"We, the citizens of Europe, have united for the better," the declaration reads.

There is no explicit mention of the most divisive issues - future enlargement to admit Turkey and the Balkan nations, and the EU constitution.

But correspondents say the call to place the EU "on a renewed common basis" before the June 2009 elections to the European Parliament is a coded reference to institutional reforms.

'Ideal timetable'

Ms Merkel said the Portugal "could organise" an intergovernmental conference when it takes over the presidency from Germany in July.

She was echoing comments by Luxembourg's Prime Minister, Jean-Claude Juncker, who told German radio that the "ideal timetable" would see the draft of a new treaty agreed during the Portuguese EU presidency.


EU leaders have been attending a series of celebratory events
British Prime Minister Tony Blair also said the EU needed "more effective rules", adding that the "sooner it is resolved the better".

However, Polish President Lech Kaczynski said that ratifying a new treaty by June 2009 was "unachievable".

He said that he and some other EU leaders understood the wording of the Berlin Declaration to mean that the treaty could be agreed by 2009, but not ratified.

European leaders are divided about how closely any new treaty should resemble the constitution.

Germany and Italy are keen to preserve it largely intact, while the UK and the Netherlands want a very different text.

Referendum 'threshold'

Some leaders also believe the project will come unstuck again if member states decide to ratify the treaty by referendum.

But British EU commissioner Peter Mandelson told the Sunday AM programme on BBC 1 that big changes to the EU had been carried out in the past without a public vote.

"I suspect that the changes that will be proposed and I hope they will be will be rather fewer with fewer constitutional implications then the single market that was created in the eighties and didn't have a referendum...

"The Maastricht treaty that didn't have a referendum provided by the then Conservative government...

"So I think it depends on what is being proposed as to whether we think it crosses the threshold for a referendum," he said.

But a poll by a British Eurosceptic think tank, Open Europe, suggests that three-quarters of Europeans would like a referendum on any new treaty giving more power to the EU.

According to the poll, carried out in all 27 EU countries, 41% of people in the EU would Yes in such a referendum and the same proportion, 41%, would vote against.

However, a majority would vote No in 16 EU countries, including Germany.

[SimpleRules]

"Common ground"?

What do we have in common? We share a continent? Big woop.

Angela Merkel is nothing more than a power-whore, which is why she continually pushes to get herself more power ... she's been with the EU since single market inception.

[soron]

Angela Merkel is nothing more than a power-whore, which is why she continually pushes to get herself more power ... she's been with the EU since single market inception.

No she's not. I'm not a fan of hers but to be fair she's more a moderator than an autocrat. I wish she wasn't in some cases because the necessary reforms in Germany are moving at an awfully slow pace because she's ever trying to get everybody into the boat.

[dannymu]

I am not in a position to say whether life has improved for me since my country joined the EU but I do agree with those who oppose the EU Constitution and any further inch of political and economic integration.