[alyster]

Not all battles can be won by fighting. We're small we can not bullly back the bullies. Only thing wise to do with Russia is just to stand like a brick wall when they try something wierd and bear whatever they throw at us. Take it easy, step by step and move on hoping to normalize the relations in time. There really isn't any better solution - it's impossible to do with out them and it's impossible and unwise to make them our puppet so step by step towards normal relations and to play a brick wall sometimes not to let them influence our internal politics too much.

[InterestedInPolitics]

Not all battles can be won by fighting. We're small we can not bullly back the bullies. Only thing wise to do with Russia is just to stand like a brick wall when they try something wierd and bear whatever they throw at us. Take it easy, step by step and move on hoping to normalize the relations in time. There really isn't any better solution - it's impossible to do with out them and it's impossible and unwise to make them our puppet so step by step towards normal relations and to play a brick wall sometimes not to let them influence our internal politics too much.

Well, it's your country. It's none of my business and I don't have the right to tell you how to run your affairs.

[dotdotdot]

On the other hand Russian officials continue to claim that Soviets "liberated" Europe.

Yah, the People who liberated €urope were the brave Polish soldiers...

Please, remind us how the Czech territory was annexed by Poland on October 2, 1938.

Actucally yes. It is closly surounded by 3 roads, leaving there a quite small ground. Moreover a trollybus stop was right in front of it so even more traffic.

then why Bronze Soldier was not "moved" after regained independence in 1991? Why poor fellows have been suffering since 1991?

[Maxim Litvinov]

When you were speaking of sanctions then it wasn't "we're talking of cyberwar"

We were talking about how worthwhile sanctions were as a response to cyberwar. Your comment was on sanctions over something else, as as such irrelevant.

The article can say alot of things

Again, if you want to go all anti-Russian conspiracy theorist on us and proclaim the article isn't telling 'the full story', then you can give the details. But as I can say to you, to Shade2, to MatthewJ, to Attila... there's simply no *evidence* for someone reading this thread at this point to believe 'General Putin' instructed the FSB to bombard Estonian websites. Indeed the evidence seems to be that DDoS attacks have come from thousands of servers, mainly disconnected with the state, around Russia and the World.

Can you explain why tens of thousands, as desrcibed in the article, would all of the sudden visit a site at once?

You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. Because the nature of the 'attack' is often simply having lots of people visit a website and because an individual may have legitimate reasons to visit a website, it's pretty hard to mount a case against such an individual unless they've gone somewhere 1000 times or something.... that's if you can trace them to begin with.

You have to ask yourself here though, who is responsible for these Russians being so pissed off? Maybe the state-sponsored propaganda...

Well, you can ask yourself the same question. I live in Australia and don't look at 'Russian propaganda' online. I've heard about the story, read about the violence, and know therefore that the Estonian government carted this statue out of the centre of Tallinn. I think that's certainly disrespectful, but then again I am not even Russian and had no relatives that died to drive back Facist forces out of my country and Estonia's.

If you're saying the Russian media has 'lied' about this story, then detail the lies. But from the POV of my 'Western propaganda', the reason Russians are pissed off is that pissing on someone's war dead TENDS to piss people off. You don't need 'propaganda' to make people annoyed about it, and quite frankly the idea that it's 'propaganda's fault' detracts from the clear fact that the Estonian government have generated this animosity from Russians directly through their own actions.

[Shade2]

Th, the People who liberated €urope were the brave Polish soldiers...

Yes Polish soldiers took part in liberation of Netherland, France and Italy. Didn't you learn history ?
Sadly they never reached Poland because it remained under Soviet occupation.

Please, remind us how the Czech territory was annexed by Poland on October 2, 1938.

You mean the Polish inhabited territory taken over by Czechs during Bolshevik invasion of Poland that Poles took back before German arrival in 1938 ?

[Attila The Nun]

there's simply no *evidence* for someone reading this thread at this point to believe 'General Putin' instructed the FSB to bombard Estonian websites. Indeed the evidence seems to be that DDoS attacks have come from thousands of servers, mainly disconnected with the state, around Russia and the World.

As of right now, we cannot be sure. But is there any reason why Russia could not have done it? I see no reason to discount or accuse anyone at this point, including the Russian government, including innocent Russians who visited the site out of curiousity. In any case, if it was a DOS attack by anyone, outside the Russian government or not, it is a serious matter.

You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. Because the nature of the 'attack' is often simply having lots of people visit a website and because an individual may have legitimate reasons to visit a website, it's pretty hard to mount a case against such an individual unless they've gone somewhere 1000 times or something.... that's if you can trace them to begin with.

It could have been leigitimate reasons, but what are the odds tens of thousands of people with legitimate reasons would visit the site all at once? Legally, it is certainly hard to prove, true, but what is the honest likelihood of something like that occuring?

[Maxim Litvinov]

As of right now, we cannot be sure.

Then as of now we're also not sure it wasn't an anti-Russian provocation staged by the CIA either...

The thing is in either case for it to be at all probable, you really should have a clear motivation for the action and evidence. As it is, why Russian politicians should suddenly want to shut down a few Estonian websites secretly is not established. Neither is it established how if they did want to, the computers allegedly used for the attack were dotted all around the country in all sorts of places.

It could have been leigitimate reasons, but what are the odds tens of thousands of people with legitimate reasons would visit the site all at once?

A billion to one. I'm not trying to say it wasn't a DoS attack - I think that much is basically certain. What I'm making is a point about taking *legal action* against those involved - seeing as the only action many took was simply going to these websites and that in itself isn't illegal, there's not much you could really do even if you could trace people.

[Shade2]

A similar situation happened in Poland. Russian news agency that is affiliated with government published a false statement claiming Polish newspaper Tygodnik Powszechny called for partition of Ukraine. Angry anons published this information on Ukrainian forums.
When the newspaper tried to explain it never published such thing, it found that at the same time government-related agency published the infrormation, the newspapers servers were attacked by hackers and it was unable to respond to the accuastions by Russia.
Fairly standart dirty tricks by Russian imperialists.

[Shade2]

http://tygodnik.onet.pl/1547,1220890,dzial.html

Operation "Disinformation"
The Russian Foreign Office vs "Tygodnik Powszechny"
"InoSMI", a popular Russian internet portal, last week published a strongly anti-Ukrainian article and cited it as a translation from… "Tygodnik Powszechny". In reality, the offending article had never been issued by "TP". According to Polish analysts in Russian affairs, it was not a mistake, but rather a deliberate attempt to mislead.
2005-03-21
Tygodnik Powszechny 13/2005

by Malgorzata Nocun, Andrzej Brzeziecki, Wojciech Pieciak

It’s the question our Ukrainian friends were asking us last Thursday, March 17.: ‘Why are you publishing such filth?’ They’ve been calling us all morning, more and more intensively as each hour progresses as they continue to read the article on a Russian website, allegedly published by ‘Tygodnik’, complete with our logo and date of release. An author was Marian Kaluski. A headline sounded like a challenge: “Let’s speak out about the Ukraine”.

Indeed, on a main page of www.inosmi.ru, right next to ‘TP’ logo and a photomontage of exeptionally unflattering Viktor Yushchenko’s potmarked face with the Polish white eagle in the background, there was a text asserting that e.g.: “Poland should support everything leading to the Ukraine’s division”.

‘InoSMI’ is a large and respectable website, popular among Russians, Ukrainians and Byelorussians, as it specializes in foreign press monitoring and prepares translations onto Russian language. Large numbers of former USSR nationals visit it.

Why did someone choose to publish such a manipulation? Was it accidental?

We contacted the ‘InoSMI’ Moscow office. Being switched from one person to another, we were trying to convince anyone who would listen that the article had never been published by ‘Tygodnik’. Obviously, somebody has submitted the article, but as a comment on an internet forum administered by ‘Onet.pl’ (‘Tygodnik’ has been associated with that site for quite some time). However, it is obvious that forum contributors’ comments published beneath such articles are not associated with the newspaper from which an article originates. Besides, ‘Onet.pl’ clearly displays a disclaimer informing readers that such comments are private opinions of readers.

Despite numerous phone calls, Russian editors shifting on the other side of the wire persisted in articulating their right to publish the article as originating from ‘Tygodnik’ and refused to remove our logo. Despite our pointing out that this was negligent disinformation and manipulation. The offending piece remained in its entirety until evening, when after our explicit demands (or rather, those from fellow journalists representing other, both Russian and Ukrainian media who had also contacted ‘InoSMI’), thy finally removed ‘Tygodnik’s’ logo. But the photomontage of Viktor Yushchenko and the actual text remained... only the logo changed. This time, the ‘Wirtualna Polonia’ portal was posted as a source (it should be mentioned that this portal’s profile is radically right-winged, with special emphasis on the term “radical”).

‘InoSMI’ obtained Kaluski’s article not by accident, but instead, through actions of the Russian Ministry for Foreign Affairs. “Someone from this ministry made the suggestion to publish it and presented is as originating from ‘TP’ ”, the editor-in-chief of ‘InoSMI’ has finally admitted it clearly, when speaking with ‘Gazeta Wyborcza’ daily (March 18.). He din’t reveal, however, who had done it.

Since it’s known that it was Russian Ministry for Foreign Affairs who released the disinformation, it would be perhaps proper for Polish Foreign Office to engage itself and, at least, to ask Russians for explanations? It is a matter of fact that this action aimed into dignity of Polish citizens and the Polish press.

Moreover, the fake from Russia lives its own life on the Internet, being reproduced in both the Russian and Ukrainian press (including the ‘Postup’ weekly from Lvov). No surprise that it is still cited as coming from ‘Tygodnik’.

“’InoSMI’ is a side product of ‘strana.ru’ portal which specializes in misinterpretation” –a Polish expert in Russian affairs (who wishes to remain anonymous) told us. “What happened to you appears to be symptomatic for the deterioration of Polish-Russian relations, which commenced last summer. Firstly in provincial newspapers, later in well-established and respected media outlets, there have been appearing publications unfriendly towards Poland” – he adds. “It can’t be accidental, because Russian press policy is subordinate to Kremlin’s line. The Internet plays a role in it”.

Relations between Poland and Russia were clearly strained during the Orange Revolution. Not only did Polish politicians contribute to the victory of democracy, as did the Polish media also. “This attack on ‘Tygodnik’, as well as other, similar attempts, can be interpreted as a type of revenge for supporting the Ukrainian revolution”, concludes this Polish expert. “This is a clear indication yet that the Polish media is under observation. ‘Tygodnik’ is being carefully scrutinized from afar. It has been noticed in Moscow that ‘TP’ was awarded ‘The Golden Pen’ ”.

Indeed, on May 1st ‘Tygodnik Powszechny’ (which has been supporting the development of Polish-Ukrainian relations for years and engaged itself in progressively reporting the Orange Revolution) was awarded ‘The Golden Pen’. The Russian-language media have been eagerly quoting articles published in ‘TP’. Furthermore, the ‘InoSMI’ portal has published translations of our publications before.

So what was the purpose of that unquestionably deliberate disinformation and attack on ‘TP’? It would seem that methods used to perform this “operation” were primitive. In the era of the Internet and electronic mail, such disinformation is easy to uncloak. Reaction against it is swift, for example, in notifying other media sources within Poland, the Ukraine and Russia, as we have done.

Yet, on Friday 18., while closing this issue of ‘Tygodnik’ and still trying to contradict that information (we’ve been calling and mailing both the Ukrainian and Russian media institutions), our whole network suddenly stopped working. Our technicians examined the problem and discovered that a mass hacking attack had struck down our server. We thankfully avoided much damages, as the internal network in our office has been quickly disconnected from the outside world. It had taken a number of hours before the offensive ceased and our technicians restored electronic communication.

Were all those occurrences from last Thursday and Friday only coincidental? We don’t know it for certain (tracing a source of the attack failed). Only questions and assumptions remain and we are unable to verify them.

According to Polish specialists in Russian affairs, it was a model example of “the network war”, so to say “an electronic assault” on our communication system, without which none of newspapers can work. Or perhaps it was only a warning – an actual assault would simply blast our whole network.

It could have been also performed to probe the timing of a response, as experts tell us. Then, the Russian secret service made a test on us, the first such one in Poland. “The network war” has been being successfully employed in the area of former USSR countries, where the Internet plays a crucial role as the only independent source of information, free of official authority’s control (the web played such role during revolutions in Georgia as well as the Ukraine, and now – in Byelorussia).

The same source claims that at least a dozen of active Russian agents work in Poland, also investigating Polish internet. Not only do they scrutinize polish websites (like those supporting Byelorussian opposition), but also perform such actions, as – for instance – contributing to internet forums on large portals (like Gazeta.pl, Onet.pl, WP.pl). Labelled as Polish Internet users, they incite anti-Semitic or anti-Ukrainian discussions or disavow articles published on the web.

However, what happened last Thursday may result in at least one positive way. Our fellow journalists from the Ukraine are declaring that they will be much more cautious when dealing with information from Russian websites.

One thing is certain, as experts in Kremlin politics claim: such tactics should be expected more and more often. They may aim into other Polish media institutions, as well as organizations and foundations engaging themselves for the Ukraine or Byelorussia.

The monster that is Russian Empire is hungry again. We can now hear its trembling belly on the internet, lusting for new slaves and victims, hungry for people of Central Europe.
It is a certainity that the hunger for enslavement of our people will be followed by actions trying to satisfy that hunger.

[MatthewJ]

That would be as much a gift for Russia as the Russian cyber-attacks were for Estonia and Washington to justify the whole dirty police charade as "defense from the evil cyber-communism." Except this would justify the FSB and its programs like SORM to do an attack of an unprecedented scale, to "defend its institutions from cyber-terrorists" or some generic crap reprinted from some memo by the US Department of Homeland Security.

Kirov, this is the Russian way of doing things. One rule for them, complete submission is expected from the rest of us.

Kass said Chinese officials have published “strategic documents” outlining “unrestricted warfare” against the American information constellation. They “understand how reliant the United States is on the ability to conduct global command and control,” she added.

Moreover, said Arquilla, “the Russians are quite good” at cyber work. Indeed, it is only too apparent that Moscow takes cyberspace operations very seriously. At least one Russian official has said that a cyber-attack on Russia’s critical transportation or power infrastructure would warrant a nuclear response.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/april2007/0407war.asp

[Carpe Veritas]

Does seem like this happened with at least the knowledge of the russian security services.

I find the Diplomatic Rows more disturbing - I dont see why Russia is picking a fight with Estonia etc? Now Putin is a power hungry hardliner at the best of times, but he must realise that the U.S.S.R. is history right. Add that to his indirect snipes at Bush and Russia is getting to be one pushy bugbear of late.

Hell If I were him and wanted regional influence I'd be pushing for an Asian Economic zone with any body thats not joining the E.U. increase your profits and influence.

Anybody got thoughts on what Putin may be hoping to achieve with all this malarky?

[Shade2]

ow Putin is a power hungry hardliner at the best of times, but he must realise that the U.S.S.R. is history right

USSR, not Russian Empire.
Russia dreams about restoring it again.

[InterestedInPolitics]

Does seem like this happened with at least the knowledge of the russian security services.

I find the Diplomatic Rows more disturbing - I dont see why Russia is picking a fight with Estonia etc? Now Putin is a power hungry hardliner at the best of times, but he must realise that the U.S.S.R. is history right. Add that to his indirect snipes at Bush and Russia is getting to be one pushy bugbear of late.

Hell If I were him and wanted regional influence I'd be pushing for an Asian Economic zone with any body thats not joining the E.U. increase your profits and influence.

Anybody got thoughts on what Putin may be hoping to achieve with all this malarky?

Putin, was the russian peoples' response to the failure of free market capitalism to bring prosperity to all of the russian people and to the looting of their country by criminal oligarchs who got their wealth through criminal actions, rather than honest, innovative hard work. The collapse of the Soviet Union brought alot of corruption, crime and horrible poverty to the russian people. He is also a response to what is perceived to be unchecked actions by the US on the global scene. Though, many russians would vehmently disagree with me, Clinton did the right thing by interveneing in Kosovo, though I think they have legitimate gripes about US policy in Iraq. Putin is a dangerous man to both the world and the US in my view and he feeds off the legitimate gripes of the russian people to push forward policies which are not necessarily good for his people in the name of doing what's best for the country.

[dotdotdot]

You mean the Polish inhabited territory taken over by Czechs during Bolshevik invasion of Poland that Poles took back before German arrival in 1938 ?

I like this logic!

Then i can say that Poland was a part of Russian Empire and therefore Poland has to be annexed by Russia.

the Polish inhabited territory

"Poland occupied areas with Polish minority around Český Těšín "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic

[Shade2]

Then i can say that Poland was a part of Russian Empire and therefore Poland has to be annexed by Russia.

Poland was never the home of Russians.

"Poland occupied areas with Polish minority around Český Těšín "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic

Yes Poles were minority in Czech Republic and concentrated in that area. Your point ?
Anyway it is :

Poland occupied Polish inhabited areas around Český Těšín

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie
1939
Population:
Poles :51,499
Czechs:44,579

[dotdotdot]

Poland was never the home of Russians.

"The HFHR estimated around 13,000-15,000 Russians are in Poland."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... d#Russians

and I read that in the time of the previous population census ethnically Russian young people often said that they are the Poles.

[dotdotdot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie
1939
Population:
Poles :51,499
Czechs:44,579

+
Germans: 38,408
+
Others: 79,381
________________
Total: 213,867

[Shade2]

Yes, it is clear Poles were the largest group in the area.
Your point ?

"The HFHR estimated around 13,000-15,000 Russians are in Poland."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... d#Russians

We have Vietnamese also, but it isn't their homeland. Just like Russians they are migrants.

[dotdotdot]

Yes, it is clear Poles were the largest group in the area.
Your point ?

do you think members of "the largest group" have to dictate conditions and terms to others?

then my point is that Poland is the empire because

"Poland occupied areas with Polish minority around Český Těšín "

("Imperialism is the policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations, countries, or colonies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism )

We have Vietnamese also, but it isn't their homeland. Just like Russians they are migrants.

thus 99% of all Americans are "migrants"

i really like this logic!

[Shade2]

do you think members of "the largest group" have to dictate conditions and terms to others?

No, but when they threatened to be ruled by minority like Germans it is no suprise their home country comes to save them.

thus 99% of all Americans are "migrants" Laugh out loud

i really like this logic!

What was the name of the country Americans came to ?