EU-Russian talks end in acrimony - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#1210469
Naive German socialists need to realize that “expressing alarm” will do nothing but provoke a few cynical KGB sniggers in the Kremlin. Putin needs to be told by Merkel and Sarkozy that Russian influence in Western Europe must decrease not increase. Before long these idiots will know just how incompatible our interests are with theirs.

EU-Russian talks end in acrimony

The leaders of the European Union and Russia have traded sharp criticism over human rights, at a summit that exposed the divisions between the two sides.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel expressed alarm at the detention of activists intending to protest against the Russian government.

Vladimir Putin retorted that Estonia's ethnic Russians were being persecuted.

Correspondents said the exchanges just illustrated the souring mood between the EU and its eastern neighbour.

There are a number of prickly issues between the two, including trade, energy supplies and Kosovo.

In a break with previous practice, no joint declaration was prepared before the summit at Volzhsky Utyos government resort, near the Russian city of Samara.

If the atmosphere at the post-summit news conference was anything to go by, the relationship has reached a new low, says the BBC's Rupert Wingfield-Hayes in Moscow.

President Putin turned the tables on the EU, accusing members Estonia and Latvia of violating the human rights of their Russian minority.

"We believe this is unacceptable and unworthy of Europe," he said.

It follows Estonia's removal last month of a World War II monument to Red Army soldiers, which led to riots and the death of one ethnic Russian.

'Colonial instincts'

In a BBC interview after the summit, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the future status of Kosovo should be decided by the Serbian people.

He said those who thought it could be determined by Russia, the EU and the US were burdened by colonial instincts.

EU leaders have recently expressed alarm about Russian threats to veto a UN Security Council resolution proposing Kosovo's de facto independence from Serbia.

Mr Lavrov said: "It's a case which, according to the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1224, adopted by consensus, supported by Russia, by the European Union, and by the United States, must be resolved in negotiations between Belgrade and Pristina."


Opposition detained


European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso warned Russia that any action taken against an individual EU state would be considered action against the whole bloc.

"It is very important if you want to have close co-operation to understand that the EU is based on principles of solidarity," he said.

Mrs Merkel, whose country holds the EU's rotating presidency, then stepped in, complaining that opposition activists had been prevented from travelling to the summit venue to take part in a protest.

"I'm concerned about some people having problems in travelling here," Mrs Merkel said.

"I hope they will be given an opportunity to express their opinion."

A number of leading anti-Putin activists, including the former chess champion Garry Kasparov, had passports confiscated and were detained at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

The authorities said they had false travel documents.

Several foreign journalists were also reportedly prevented from travelling.

'Sacred principles'

Nevertheless, some protesters - estimated variously between 100 and 500 - gathered at a square in Samara and marched, chanting slogans like "Russia without Putin!"

"I don't agree with what's happening in Russia today. I want another Russia, a free one," said Natalya Sorochan, 27.

A perceived increase in Russian authoritarianism is one of the thorns in the side of EU-Russian relations, correspondents say.

Mr Barroso said the EU's "sacred principles" included "democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of association, freedom of demonstration".

Another testing issue is Russia's ban on meat imports from Poland over apparent food safety issues.

Poland rejects the ban, and says it will veto any new strategic partnership between the EU and Russia, until it is lifted.

Also souring relations are the cutting of Russian oil supplies to Lithuania in a separate row.


LINK

Reading about Merkel reminds me of an old George Bush Quote regarding Putin.

"I looked into his eyes and took the measure of his soul."

:lol:

Needs to be re-written:

"I looked into his eyes and saw an arrogant KGB thug with a cynical contempt for human life."
By SpiderMonkey
#1210486
There are no 'good guys' here. Yes, Putin is a KGB thug, no argument there. But western leaders are hardly paragons of virtue. How can Britain criticise Russias corruption when we have Lord Levy? How can America when they have Gonzales?

If we want others to change, the only way to do that is to lead by example, and thus far we are doing a pisspoor job of that.
By Shade2
#1211660
Matthew-a quite a lot of Germans are desiring an Eurasian union of sorts with Russia to challange USA and pay for defeat to their imperialistic dreams in WW1 and WW2. So they try to integrate Russia further with EU seen by them as German protoctorate. Thankfully politicians in Central and Eastern Europe often see through that game, and as you see Poland opposes the attempts to integrate EU and Russia.
By InterestedInPolitics
#1211872
There are no 'good guys' here. Yes, Putin is a KGB thug, no argument there. But western leaders are hardly paragons of virtue. How can Britain criticise Russias corruption when we have Lord Levy? How can America when they have Gonzales?

If we want others to change, the only way to do that is to lead by example, and thus far we are doing a pisspoor job of that.


My semtiments exactly. Lead by example. People follow the example of the leader. Which, if it is not a good example, then everybody else will follow the bad example that is set by the leader. And when the leader confronts those who follow his bad example about how bad they are, he has no credibility.

"I looked into his eyes and saw an arrogant KGB thug with a cynical contempt for human life."


Absolutely. That is exactly who he is. Somebody with a cynical contempt for human life and freedom. Thats the current Russian leader. But he got into power because the Russians saw that the US betrayed it's own principles, ideas and so the russians began to go back to authortarian rule because they felt like they just got shammed out. We have to set the proper example and stick by our ideas, otherwise, we have no credibility and Putin will be able to go unchecked because their is nobody with the credibility to challenge him.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#1212190
Naive German socialists


Angela Merkel's a socialist?
User avatar
By Zel
#1212323
Matthew-a quite a lot of Germans are desiring an Eurasian union of sorts with Russia to challange USA and pay for defeat to their imperialistic dreams in WW1 and WW2. So they try to integrate Russia further with EU seen by them as German protoctorate. Thankfully politicians in Central and Eastern Europe often see through that game, and as you see Poland opposes the attempts to integrate EU and Russia.


Who would that be, and what is your definition of "quite a lot"? Ever care to back up your claims with statements that come from any relevant German sources?
By GrumpyEuropean
#1212426
Shade2 wrote:a quite a lot of Germans are desiring an Eurasian union of sorts with Russia to challange USA and pay for defeat to their imperialistic dreams in WW1 and WW2. So they try to integrate Russia further with EU seen by them as German protoctorate.


This is, of course, the usual paranoid bullshit leaking out of Shade's bodily cavities that shall remain unnamed.
By Torwan
#1212441
First: We are NOT socialists!

Second: When there is one thing we Germans have learned in the past, then it is this: Everything in Europe only works WITH Russia, never AGAINST. It's very easy to call for hard gunboat-diplomacy against Russia, if you call from across the Atlantic, backed with the most powerful military and economy on this planet. It's very different when you're in Europe, depending on russian energy supplies (oil & gas).

Third: Diplomacy is no John-Wayne-Western-style talk like: "Hey, this is crap, Palestinian You stop this or we're gonna kick your butt." Interfering/commenting on russian internals will only create the "stop-interfering-into-our-internal-affairs"-reflex.

Fourth: Imagine this - you are chancellor of an 82-million-people nation, mediocre military, top-ten-economic nation visiting one of the most powerful military power in the world which is also the energy supplier for you. What else can you say but "I'm very concerned about this?" AND (which you guys obviously missed) "Contrary to what we've seen here, we will have demonstration at the G8-summit in Germany - visible and audible".

Fifth: Don't call for Sarkozy unless you know him. Every french President since Charles de Gaulle tried to forge a continental alliance between France/Germany (French leadership of course) and Russia without the United States. I don't think that Sarkozy will be that different. Yes, he talks much about the French/US-friendship, but before I don't see any real action, I'm very sceptic that the French/US-relations will change severely.
By Shade2
#1213662
it is this: Everything in Europe only works WITH Russia, never AGAINST.

Yes, we in Poland know your German attitude.
Image
It's very easy to call for hard gunboat-diplomacy against Russia, if you call from across the Atlantic, backed with the most powerful military and economy on this planet. It's very different when you're in Europe, depending on russian energy supplies (oil & gas).

Funny, Poland isn't across the Atlantic(sadly), has not the most powerfull military and economy in the world, is dependent on Russian gas and oil, yet it doesn't act like German and is tough towards Russia.


the usual paranoid bullshit leaking out of Shade's bodily cavities that shall remain unnamed.

Oh cute, I guess Trolls have only personal insults left when faced with real arguments.

with statements that come from any relevant German sources?

Schroeder maybe ? Maybe Rahr ?[/list]
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1213912
How can America when they have Gonzales?


Alberto Gonzales is not the head of the United States. Vladimir Putin is the head of Russia.

First: We are NOT socialists!


Certainly not, but the left-leaning opposition is gaining far too much ground within Germany.

Yes, we in Poland know your German attitude


Do I detect a hint of bitterness? No need for the overt prejudice, Shade.
By Torwan
#1214641
@Shade2:

Yes, we in Poland know your German attitude.


Thanks for enriching this discussion with such a constructive comment. It really raises my interest for your other comments. Luckily, I'm not one who blames a whole nation for things that some of their members did in the past, otherwise I'd be reminding people now about the cheers and applause the SS got from the Poles when they rallied polish Jews from their homes and dumped them in ghettos. Luckily...
By Shade2
#1214798
Luckily, I'm not one who blames a whole nation for things that some of their members did in the past

41 % of Germans believe Nazism had good sides don't they ?

about the cheers and applause the SS got from the Poles when they rallied polish Jews from their homes and dumped them in ghettos. Luckily...

Oh how cute, German. Forgetting that your German SS and other agencies you Germans elected into power by voting for Hitler and allied parties murdered milions of Poles ? Did they cheer as German soldiers raped Polish women and girls ? Did they cheeer when your German soldiers murdered pregnant women and little kids ? Did they apploud when your German soldiers burned Polish elderly and disabled alive in Warsaw ?
Pfff, a German trying to blame Poles for German crimes...
Perhaps soon you will blame Jews also-after all there was Jewish Ghetto Police...

I detect a hint of bitterness?

No, why the idea ? Just statement of fact. Germany in history often worker together with Russia to enslave others.
By Torwan
#1214872
41 % of Germans believe Nazism had good sides don't they ?


And where did you get that number?

Oh how cute, German.


You know, I have a name...

Pfff, a German trying to blame Poles for German crimes...


Who said "blame"? I just said "support". And maybe this small piece of information you didn't like to hear shows you how fair and realistic the concept of "collective guilt" is.

Just read this:
A few German-inspired massacres were carried out with help from, or even active participation by, Poles themselves. For example, the massacre in Jedwabne, in which between 300 (Institute of National Remembrance's Final Findings [1]) and 1,600 (Jan T. Gross [2]) Jews were tortured and beaten to death by some of Jedwabne's citizens. The full extent of Polish participation in the massacres of the Polish Jewish community remains a controversial subject, but the Polish Institute for National Remembrance identified 22 other towns that had pogroms similar to Jedwabne. [3]. The reasons for these massacres are still debated, but they included anti-Semitism, resentment over cooperation with the Soviet invaders in Polish-Soviet War and during 1939 invasion of Kresy regions, and simple greed for the possessions of the Jews.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_in_Poland

Now, would it be fair for me to associate you with these kind of Poles just because you're polish?

Germany in history often worker together with Russia to enslave others.


So, are you really thinking that Germany cooperates with Russia to enslave Poland again? You know, Poland is not the center of the world and Germany has other interests than figuring out ways to insult Poland, despite what you guys might think.
User avatar
By ArtAllm
#1215121
A number of leading anti-Putin activists, including the former chess champion Garry Kasparov, had passports confiscated and were detained at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport.

The authorities said they had false travel documents.


Well, maybe the travel documents were really false?

:roll:
User avatar
By ArtAllm
#1215135
Shade2 wrote:
So they try to integrate Russia further with EU seen by them as German protoctorate.


Well, isn’t it natural to have good relations with your neighbors?
This union will be good for Germany and Russia... and the rest of Europe.


Shade2 wrote:
Thankfully politicians in Central and Eastern Europe often see through that game, and as you see Poland opposes the attempts to integrate EU and Russia.


I think that these countries are not clever enough to understand that they are misused by the Anglo-Saxons as a “cordone sanitaire”.

The Anglo-Saxons are not interested in a union of Russia and Germany, but why should Germans and Russians care about Anglo-Saxon interests and the opinion of American Quislings?

:roll:

H.J. Mackinder: "… it is necessary to avoid the union of Russia and Germany …"

Nicholas J. Spykman: "…it is necessary to control these buffer States that constitute the rimland, the pivot, if one wants to control the heart of the world."

Lord Ismany: "NATO's purpose is to keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down"

Brzezinski:."…Europe is the geostrategical bridgehead fundamental for America. For America, geostrategical stakes on the Eurasian continent are enormous. More precious than the relationships with the Japanese archipelago, the Atlantic alliance permits him to wield a political influence and to have a military weight directly on the continent. At this stage of the american-European relationships, the allied European nations depend on the United States for their security. If Europe would be enlarged, it would increase the direct influence of the United States automatically. On the contrary, if the transatlantic ties distended themselves, it would be the end of the pre-eminence of America in Eurasia".
User avatar
By ArtAllm
#1215145
Shade2 wrote:

Pfff, a German trying to blame Poles for German crimes...


The German Nazis that committed crimes were punished after WWII, and that was good for Germany. We got rid of Nazi criminals after WWII and that was good for German society that became a healthy society.

Hardly anybody in today Germany is proud of the crimes committed by those Nazis 60 years ago.

Today Germans have nothing to do with the Third Reich and with the Nazis.

There is no such thing in Western culture like "hereditary guilt”.

But Polish criminals who committed horrendous crimes against German civilians, seems to be still considered descent people... or even national heroes, aren’t they?

Are you proud of those Polish guys who killed and expelled unarmed German civilians, children and women?

These Polish criminals were not punished after WWII, but they are still criminals, aren't they?

:roll:
Last edited by ArtAllm on 23 May 2007 20:37, edited 1 time in total.
By Shade2
#1215146
his union will be good for Germany and Russia... and the rest of Europe.

Please explain how German-Russo dictate would be 'good for rest of Europe'. Last time you tried this, 6 milion Polish citizens were slaughtered. Or do you consider Poland to be outside Europe.

are not clever enough to understand that they are misused by the Anglo-Saxons as a “cordone sanitaire”.

Oh how terrible-teh evil Anglo-Saxons with their magical tea and Occult Tower of Ultimate Mystic Power called Big Ben.
Yawn. Get a life, perhaps you are not clever enough to realise they were the ones that helped us fight your opressive regimes. You know-the German ones in Second Reich and Third Reich that were trying to destroy Polish nation ?

The Anglo-Saxons are not interested in a union of Russia and Germany, but why should Germans and Russians care about Anglo-Saxon interests

You don't have to care German. But they will care about you. How many American troops are safeguarding Europe from German dreams ? Is it 100.000 ? Last time I heard they decided to stay in the bases actually. What are you going to do German about them ? Show them your beautifull women to scare them away ? :lol:
and the opinion of American Quislings?

Oh how cute. Just tell why should Poland be loyal to Germany that wanted to exterminate Polish nation, rather then to USA that fought for our indepedence.
Next time you will accuse Jews of being disloyal to Hitler.

Europe is made out of many more countries then your Germany with USA bases and Turkish towns and Russia with AIDS pandemic.


The German Nazis that committed crimes were punished after WWII, and that was good for Germany. We got rid of Nazi criminals after WWII and that was good for German society that became a healthy society.

LOL amusing German nationalist myths.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9659C8B63
In the early postwar years, the Americans in particular instituted a program of trials, purges and re-education that would, it was hoped, transform Germans into democrats. Top Nazi political and military leaders were tried by the Allies for war crimes. Former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers, including teachers, judges and bureaucrats as well as soldiers and secret police officers, faced denazification proceedings in which, depending on their implication in Nazi crimes, they had their property confiscated, were dismissed from their posts or were fined or imprisoned.

But this program encountered resistance almost from the beginning. Digging themselves out of the ruins, most Germans disclaimed any personal responsibility for the crimes of the Nazis, if they acknowledged them at all. Indeed, they viewed themselves as victims and their treatment by the Allies as unjust. As Frei notes, ''the overwhelming majority of West Germans were clearly in favor of . . . forgetting everything having to do with Nazism.''

Frei begins with the founding of the Federal Republic in 1949, when Chancellor Konrad Adenauer's new government almost immediately set about dismantling the Allied program for dealing with the past. It quickly adopted amnesty laws that absolved even many of those guilty of serious Nazi-era crimes, and a restitution law that mandated reintegrating hundreds of thousands of former Nazi sympathizers dismissed by the Allies -- including members of the Gestapo and Waffen SS -- into their old positions throughout the government and professions.

The government also took up the cause of war criminals held by the Allies. Wehrmacht officers, indignant at being ''dishonored,'' refused to support rearmament and integration into the Western alliance as long as soldiers remained in Allied prisons, and they enjoyed the overwhelming backing of the Protestant and Catholic churches, lawyers and much of the population. The Western alliance, eager to court Germany as the cold war developed, reluctantly gave in to their demands. By 1958, except for a handful of the original Nuremberg defendants, most war criminals had been pardoned and freed.

Frei delineates the considerations behind these policies from the perspective of the government and the political parties. Excluding hundreds of thousands of former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers would have deprived the new state of necessary skills and produced potentially dangerous levels of discontent. Offering people the chance to wipe out the past and start anew was a way of gaining their allegiance to the new system. International realities also motivated Adenauer; he faced public resistance to the treaties with the Western allies at a time when the Soviets still held out hope of reunification in exchange for German neutrality.

But Frei also makes it quite clear that more was at work here than the exigencies of realpolitik. The amnesty and reintegration programs went well beyond what would have been necessary to co-opt the far right. Politicians and church leaders went out of their way to intercede for people convicted of atrocities; the government paid for their legal defense. In their very unwillingness to allocate individual responsibility for Nazi crimes, Frei suggests, Germans were in fact indirectly acknowledging their ''entire society's entanglement in the Nazi enterprise.'' In absolving others of complicity, they also absolved themselves.


Oh look another example of German justice against war criminals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Reinefarth
From August 5, 1944 Reinefarth's group took part in fighting in the Wola area. In several days, his soldiers executed approximately 50,000 civilian inhabitants of Warsaw in what is now known as the Wola Massacre. In one of his reports to the commander of the German 9th Army he stated that "we have more prisoners than ammunition to kill them". After securing the Wola area, his troops took part in heavy fighting against the Armia Krajowa in the Old Town. In September, his forces were transferred to attack the partisans in the boroughs of Powiśle and Czerniaków. The exact number of victims of Reinefarth's unit is unknown, but could be as high as 100,000. During the fighting in Warsaw, they deliberately shot most of the POWs, civilians and wounded in captured hospitals. For his actions during the Warsaw Uprising Reinefarth was awarded on September 30, 1944, with the Oak Leaves to his Iron Cross.


.
In December 1951 he was elected Mayor of the town of Westerland, the main town on the island of Sylt. In 1962 he was elected to the Landtag of Schleswig-Holstein. After his term ended in 1967 he started to work as a lawyer.

Despite numerous demands, he was never extradited to Poland. Instead, the government of West Germany awarded him with a General's pension. He died on May 7, 1979 in his manor on Sylt.


Today Germans have nothing to do with the Third Reich and with the Nazis.

Of course not, that is why they elected Nazi mass murderer to be mayor of German town.

These Polish criminals were not punished after WWII, but they are still criminals, aren't they?

Oh poor sad German, those terrible "Polish criminals" that dared to oppose the German Ubermenschen and didn't wanted to be exterminated as subhumans should be !
Don't worry German, your German countryment have tried very hard to punish "Polish criminals"
Here is an example of German dedication in WW2 to fighting "Polish criminality":
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities4.htm
I was alone with my three children, aged 4, 6 and 12, and in the last month of pregnancy. I delayed my departure, hoping they would allow me to remain, and left the cellar at the very last moment. All the inhabitants of our house had already been escorted to the "Ursus" works in Wolska Street at the corner of Skierniewicka Street, and I too was ordered to go there. I went alone, accompanied only by my three children. It was difficult to pass, the road being full of wire, cable, remains of barricades, corpses, and rubble. Houses were burning on both sides of the street; I reached the "Ursus" work's with great difficulty. Shots, cries, supplications and groans could be heard from the factory yard. We had no doubt that this was a place for mass executions. The people who stood at the entrance were led, no, pushed in, not all at once but in groups of 20. A boy of twelve, seeing the bodies of his parents and of his little brother through the half-open entrance door, fell in a fit and began to shriek. The Germans and Vlassov's men beat him and pushed him back, while he was endeavouring to get inside. He called for his father and his mother. We all knew what awaited us here; there was no possibility of escape or of buying one's life; there was a crowd of Germans, Ukrainians (Vlassov's men), and cars. I came last and kept in the background, continuing to let the others pass, in the hope that they would not kill a pregnant woman, but I was driven in with the last lot. In the yard I saw heaps of corpses 3 feet high, in several places. The whole right and left side of the big yard (the first yard) was strewn with bodies. (A sketch of the yard was made by the deponent.) We were led through the second. There were about 20 people in our group, mostly children of 10 to 12. There were children without parents, and also a paralysed old woman whose son-in-law had been carrying her all the time on his backAt her side was her daughter with two children of 4 and 7. They were all killed. The old woman was literally killed on her son-in-law's back, and he along with her. . We were called out in groups of four and led to the end of the second yard to a pile of bodies. When the four reached this point, the Germans shot them through the backs of their heads with revolvers. The victims fell on the heap, and others came. Seeing what was to be their fate, some attempted to escape; they cried, begged, and prayed for mercy. I was in the last group of four I begged the Vlassov's men around me to save me and the children, and they asked if I had anything with which to buy my life. I had a large amount of gold with me and gave it them. They took it all and wanted to lead me away, but the German supervising the execution would not allow them to do so, and when I begged him to let me go he pushed me off, shouting "Quicker!" I fell when he pushed me. He also hit and pushed my elder boy, shouting "hurry up, you Polish bandit". Thus I came to the place of execution, in the last group of four, with my three children. I held my two younger children by one hand, and my elder boy by the other. The children were crying and praying. The elder boy, seeing the mass of bodies, cried out: "they are going to kill, us" and called for his father. The first shot hit him, the second me; the next two killed the two younger children.

The Germans ordered people who were in the school yard to go out into Maria Kazimiera Street, where they were joined by others from No. 21. Some refused to go and began to turn back; then the soldiers fired at them from all sides, killing them all. Among those who had been previously driven from the school was a woman with a child in a perambulator. She was killed with the others in Maria Kazimiera Street. A few moments afterwards I saw a soldier come over to the perambulator and shoot the child.


Yes, we Poles know much about how Germans in WW2 hated 'Polish bandits'...

Now, would it be fair for me to associate you with these kind of Poles just because you're polish?

What do I care for a handful of Polish criminals ? Our state never pursued such policies of murder, Germany did.
Anyway in 1947 in polls made by Allies 57% of Germans agreed with idea of Nazism.

Now, would it be fair for me to associate you with these kind of Poles just because you're polish?

States and nations are judged by actions of their own, not by minority of criminals in them that are fought by the state.
By kami321
#1215183
Germans believe Nazism had good sides don't they

Nazism had good sides, that's a fact.

...care about Anglo-Saxon interests...

Oh god, when will you people stop thinking in terms of interests of races or nations?
"this is in the interest of my country"
"this is in the interest of my ethnic group"
"this is in the interest of my bullshit group of people, the members of which have very little in common, but I really want to be in it anyway, because everyone around me is in it and it ain't cool if I am different"
User avatar
By ArtAllm
#1215189
Shade2:
Please explain how German-Russo dictate would be 'good for rest of Europe'.


Please elaborate. What do you mean with “dictate”?
There is no need of any dictate, there should be a cooperation between Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Poland etc.) and Russia and this cooperation should be democratic.

Why do you think that American dictate would be good for Europe?
America is interested in a confrontation between Russia and Europe, but is Europe really interested in such a confrontation?

Shade2:
Last time you tried this, 6 milion Polish citizens were slaughtered. Or do you consider Poland to be outside Europe.


But who profited from this senseless war of European Nations?
What about the Americans who helped Hitler with money?

Europeans were too stupid to cooperate and live in peace with each other. Why should we repeat the same mistakes?

If we exclude Russia from Europe, there would be no stability on the European continent.

You cannot “keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down" forever. Europeans have to solve their own problems without America and cooperate with each other.

Shade2:
Just tell why should Poland be loyal to Germany that wanted to exterminate Polish nation, rather then to USA that fought for our indepedence.


Nazi Germany was destroyed 60 years ago. Today Germany has nothing to do with the Third Reich. Stop your paranoiac rant, nobody is going to destroy Poland.

You do not have to be loyal to Germany, be loyal to Brussels and Europe.

USA and England fought for their own interests, not for Polish interests.
Poland was for 60 year a colony of the big communistic Russian-Slavic brother, and America accepted that.

Now Russia is a democratic country, why should this country be excluded from Europe?

Europeans were too dumb to cooperate, live in peace and to solve their own problems in the past, but do we really need the Uncle Sam forever?

If there is a new (cold?) war between Russia and Europe, then America will profit from such a war.

But what about Russia, Germany and Poland? Will we, Europeans, profit from such a war?

:roll:

Are you too dumb to understand that?

Shade2:
Europe is made out of many more countries then your little Germany with USA bases and Turkish towns and Russia with AIDS pandemic.


Europe cannot do without "little" German money. :D

Germany can do without USA bases, without Turkey and Turkish towns in Germany... and without Poland.

But Germany cannot do without old Europe (mainly France) and a democratic Russia.

Old Europe needs a union with a democratic Russia.

That is the geopolitical reality.

Without a union with a democratic Russia there will be a new cold war, and we are (for sure) not interested in such a war.

Before WWI there was a huge cooperation between Russia and Europe.

Many Germans and Frenchmen lived in Russia and had a good position there. The Russian elite was educated in Germany and France and could fluently speak German and French. Many great Russian artists enriched European culture (ballet, music, literature etc).

This time was the golden age for Russia, Europe and the rest of mankind. But Anglo-Saxons managed to create confrontation on the European continent... and we had WWI and, as a consequence, WWII.

Do we really need WWIII?
By Shade2
#1215466
there is no need of any dictate, there should be a cooperation between Europe

Oh cute, changing your line now ? Just a while your shouting "quisling" at Poland simply because we don't share the hegemonic dreams of two murderous countries that tried to murder our nation so many times.
and Russia and this cooperation should be democratic.

Yeah, right. With Russia and Germany having together over 200 milion people that would mean dictate to Poland with 38 milion people. That is why your despotic dream about Eurasian state will never be accepted.
Why do you think that American dictate would be good for Europe?

There is no country called Europe. Never will be. Stop living in fantasy. Or are you talking about Americans changing the continental plate or something ?
America is interested in a confrontation between Russia and Europe

Yes I am sure America plots to have Switzerland invade Russia right now.


But who profited from this senseless war of European Nations?

Sensless ?! You call Polish resistance to German slaughter of Polish nation classified by German politicians as "sub-human" sensless ?! Disgusting.
And Soviet Russia profited the most, by becoming superpower and occupy Central and Eastern Europe.

What about the Americans who helped Hitler with money?

What about German people who voted for him, died for him, murdered Polish women and children for him. Yeah blame it on the Americans-the only thing they can be blamed about is their naivety in goodness of human nature that blinded them to what German state was capable of towards human beings.
Europeans were too stupid to cooperate and live in peace with each other.

Oh sureee..Poles "were too stupid" not to surrender to their German and Russian overlors and become either exterminated or slaves. Tough luck. We still don't think its a good deal. We much prefer USA and its determination to create independent Poland.
You cannot “keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down" forever

Oh well, we will try as long as we can so that Poland won't be enslaved again and Poles won't be target of extermination.

If we exclude Russia from Europe, there would be no stability on the European continent.

Yes, we all know here your "stability" the Holy Alliance that kept Poland enslaved in XIX century and your German-Russian deals to keep Poles their slaves.

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/wooton ... cki/18.htm
Prussia, foreseeing an inevitable armed conflict with France, made friendly overtures to Russia and offered her assistance in suppressing the Polish uprising. On the 14th day of February arrangements had already been completed, and the British Ambassador in Berlin was able to inform his government that a Prussian military envoy "has concluded a military convention with the Russian Government, according to which the two governments will reciprocally afford facilities to each other for the suppression of the insurrectionary movements which have lately taken place in Poland. The Prussian railways are also to he placed at the disposal of the Russian military authorities for the transportation of troops through Prussian territory from one part of the Kingdom of Poland to another."


http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~ ... 863up.html
Russia knew, however, that not even Napoleon III, who personally addressed the czar in that matter, would militarily back up such diplomatic interventions, which were once more repeated in June. Chancellor Gorchakov’s replies were therefore purely negative, referring first to an amnesty promised by the czar and finally declaring that before there could be any discussions with the Poles, their insurrection would have to be crushed.

That was done indeed with the utmost ruthlessness, not only by Russia’s military might but also by the new administration in both the Congress Kingdom, where a German Balt, Theodore Berg, was made governor general, and in the former grand duchy of Lithuania, where General M. N. Muravyew distinguished himself by acts of special cruelty.


The Russian and German meaning of "European stability" is quite known to any school child in Poland that has history clasess-to keep Russian and German conquests subjugated and exploited

Today Germany has nothing to do with the Third Reich.

What about Prussia that destroyed Poland and whose thinkers treated Poles as animals ? What about Second German Empire and Bismarck that wanted to destroy Polish nation ?
And Third Reich ? What about BdV that allows sales of Waffen SS marches from invasion of Poland during its meetings ? Why isn't it disbanded ?

You do not have to be loyal to Germany, be loyal to Brussels and Europe.

LOL. I am loyal to Warsaw and my country not some idiots in Brussels representing German and French interests in a sorry excuse of a loose economic union that isn't a state, and never will be as long as Poland is in it. Your German PR is hilerious and stereotypical. Be loyal to Brussels-LOL, like I am that stupid not to know you Germans dominate it with French and both of you have different interests then Poles. Not to mention Germans tried to exterminate Poles while France betrayed them. Yeah righ, I am signing my declaration of loyalty right away buhaha.
And Europe ? Why the heck should I be loyal to continental plate ? LOL

USA and England fought for their own interests, not for Polish interests.

Yeah right, I guess this is the reason why USA demanded indepedence of Poland as condition for the end of WW1. Learn history German. You need it.
Poland was for 60 year a colony of the big communistic Russian-Slavic brother,

Oh cute, you don't distinguish even between Russians and Poles and use the Nazi idea of both being "Slavs". Congratulations for convincing me that Germans "changed".
and America accepted that.

Yes, I guess that is why it founded resistance in Poland, helped Solidarity, spent milions on Radio "Free Europe" and President Reagan personally engaged in fight for Polish freedom.

Now Russia is a democratic country

Yeah sure, and North Korea is a republic of workers paradise.

Europeans have to solve their own problems without America

Sadly Poland is too small to fend off both German and Russian agression and USA is needed.
Europeans were too dumb to cooperate

Thanks agains for suggesting Poles were "too dump" to accept becoming German and Russian slaves.
but do we really need the Uncle Sam forever?

Well its certain people you represent don't need it as it opposes their imperalism and dreams of despotic Eurasian tyranny of Russia and Germany,
Both we Poles certainly need it, after all it keeps Germany and Russia at bay.
then America will profit from such a war.

In every war that USA was engaged in in Europe USA's victory was better for Poland then victory of USA's opponents. USA's victory was also victory of Poles.
Will we, Europeans, profit from such a war?

Russians posess their own cultural identity which is Eurasian rather then European.
And its hard to claim any definate cultural identity of Europan anyway.
As to profit-its obvious you Germans and Russians will lose to USA and its allies. So yes you have nothing to profit from such war. For Poland-it is a common day like any other. Russians and Germans always try to destroy us so its nothing new.

Are you too dumb to understand that?

Sorry, that I am "too dumb" to understand that Poles must take orders from Russians and Germans. LOL
Europe cannot do without "little" German money

I will gladly trade this for revision of centuries of German attempts to destroy Polish nation, WW1, WW2, Holocaust, 6milion Polish citizens murdered by Germany, my country exploited by Germany and destroyed in WW2 (Germany never paid circa 540 billion Euro damage in inflicted on Poland), destruction of my country's capital Warsaw by Germans, 200,000 Polish children kidnapped for Germanisation in WW2 and all the other German things we could do without.
Care to trade ?
and without Poland.

Sure :) Prepare to trade with Russia solely through the Baltic. I am sure its cheap :D Btw how's the pipeline going ? Does it cost now 14 billion euro ? I lost count how many times the cost is going up ? Any new countries protesting due to environmental concerns ? I lost track of that also. :D

Before WWI there was a huge cooperation between Russia and Europe.

Yeah, we know. Poland didn't exist as result of that cooperation.

This time was the golden age for Russia, Europe and the rest of mankind.

I am sure it was golden age for Polish people murdered by Russians, and Polish children beaten for speaking Polish by German teachers.
Nice of you to claim the era in which Polish nation was being murdered and destroyed by Russia and Germany was "golden age for mankind". Perhaps you don't count Poles among humans ? Wouldn't be surprising, would it ?
I am sure in time you will reveal your views on 'golden age' in 1939-1941 time period. Don't be shy, we all know what to expect.
And we had WWI and, as a consequence,

And as consequence Poland was freed from Russo-German tyranny.The Horror ! Of course it angered them greatly.
Nazism had good sides, that's a fact.

Considering your views on Poles and Poland, your statement doesn't suprise.

You really have no clue what goes on there. Just […]

I think you can keep the money without being charg[…]

I agree with POD. Mental health treatment is not […]

@Drlee While I don't disagree in principle, the R[…]