Poland Discusses WWII, Complains About Numbers - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Lokakyy
#1250777
Did Germany ended territorial demands towards Poland in Szczecin area ? No.


According to CIA factbook, neither Germany nor Poland have any territorial demands. What is the source of your information?

It'd be odd if such information wouldn't be marked on the factbook considering that it even mentions the minuscule Finnish groups that demand for the return of Karelia ceded to USSR after WWII.
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1250784
Shade:

Why is it that the Poles are so damn whiny? "I want. I want. I want." Yes, every moocher in Poland from Warsaw to Lodz seems to want something from Germany that they don't deserve. Why can't you people ever just know your place and sit down? Poland is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.
User avatar
By Zel
#1250786
One of the first thing the reunified Germany did was to sign a border treaty that finalized the Oder Neisse line as the Polish German border, and therefore emphazised that it had no claims on Polish teritory.

@FRS
Poland is as relevant as any other country within the Union. While its understandable that Poland wasnt happy about the recent deal its just a matter of fact that trying to renegotiate the voting mechanism would have been extremly problematic. It was a compromise that took several years to establish (to which Poland agreed I might add), so changing it would have jeopardized the whole treaty. More problematic is the exclusion of the UK from the European charter for human rights, and it has today been made public that Poland too thinks about opting out of it.
By Shade2
#1250798
]Why is it that the Poles are so damn whiny? "I want. I want. I want." Yes, every moocher in Poland from Warsaw to Lodz seems to want something from Germany that they don't deserve.

Poland deserves much from Germany after several centuries of German attempts to destroy our state, which culminated in attempted genocide during WW2. Of course I realise you believe a rapist has right to rape if he is strong ?

One of the first thing the reunified Germany did was to sign a border treaty that finalized the Oder Neisse line as the Polish German border, and therefore emphazised that it had no claims on Polish teritory.

Germany isn't known to keeping its treaties.
First of all German constitution still mentions 1937 border with Poland...
Second of all Germany and Poland don't have border only on Odra-Nysa line but also beyond it in Szczecin area and Germany wants to grab a piece of Polish sea.
http://www.warsawvoice.pl/archiwum.phtml/1257/





In late 1980s, the German Democratic Republic unilaterally expanded its territorial water zone to 12 miles. As a result, the shipping channel of the Szczecin-Świnoujście port complex was shifted on the map to the other side of the sea frontier. The East German cutters began to halt Polish fishermen and sailors. The agreement of 1989, also honored by unified Germany, put an end to those incidents.



http://www.warsawvoice.pl/archiwum.phtml/1543/



The conflict began Feb. 23, when the German naval police did not let Polish ships take port in Alt Warp. The pretext was missing documents which would entitle Polish ferry boats to harbor there. As it soon turned out, the German carrier also lacked such documents for harboring in Poland.

The Sea Office in Szczecin responded by not allowing the German ferries to moor in Nowe Warpno's port. Ferry traffic on Szczeciński Bay was a dead issue for a couple of days.

How was it possible that both carriers had used mutually invalid documents for such a long time? For the Poles, Szczeciński Bay comprises territorial sea waters, while the Germans consider it part of the inland waters, resulting in different documents for ferries servicing the area.


Leave it to Germany to break its treaties...

Poland is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, it only ruined German plans to take over Europe in 1939 for starters...
User avatar
By Zel
#1250812
So does Germany honor those agreements or not? And is that dispute even relevant today with Poland joining the Shengen area next year :eh: ?
User avatar
By Omar
#1250820
shade2 wrote:Poland deserves much from Germany after several centuries of German attempts to destroy our state, which culminated in attempted genocide during WW2


Poland doesn't deserve anything. They, like every other nation in the world, have to earn it. And rolling over for any country and all countries who wish their territory (First Partition 1772, Second Partition 1793, Third Partition 1795, Congress of Vienna 1815, Congress Kingdom 1832, Krakow 1846, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact 1939, not to mention the 1945 action where the USSR physically moved Poland to the west to be in a better position for a buffer state).
By Shade2
#1250879
Poland doesn't deserve anything. They, like every other nation in the world, have to earn it.

According to who ? An anon poster on the web ? :lol: Sorry but nations have rights, perhaps a nazi would agree with you, are a rapist, but why should I bother with you ?
And rolling over for any country and all countries who wish their territory
Yaaawn, perhaps you should read some history book, would spare you the fate of making an impression of ignorant, all the events were met with Polish resistance and eventual fall of invading powers.

So does Germany honor those agreements or not?

Of course not, since continues to greed for Polish territory.
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1251022
Poland deserves much from Germany after several centuries of German attempts to destroy our state, which culminated in attempted genocide during WW2. Of course I realise you believe a rapist has right to rape if he is strong ?


:violin:

Germany has a rich history as a militaristic society, and Poland has a rich history as a victim, so what do you expect to happen? What the German government "did" to Poland under the Nazi leadership is irrelevant. In your world, the British would still be paying India reparations, the Belgians would have to compensate Congo, etc. The time is now, not the past, and we will not try to right historical wrongs.

Yeah, it only ruined German plans to take over Europe in 1939 for starters...


Actually, the Soviet Union, the United States, and the United Kingdom did that.
User avatar
By Zel
#1251061
Of course not, since continues to greed for Polish territory.


So from what I can gather from your articles there was a border dispute between the German Democratic Republic and Poland in the 80ties on settling the sea border along the alleged 12 mile zone. This was sorted out in 1989 and the unified Germany according to that article honours that agreement as does Poland . BTW the article is mainly about a proposed land transaction between the Czech Republic and Poland and was published in 2000.

The second article isnt even about a land dispute or sea area dispute but the handling of docking rights in a German respective Polish harbour lying on opposite sides of a bay (or something along that line) for German and Polish ferrying companies. According to that article there is an agreement that handles the situation too since 1993 (Article is from 2001).

So honestly where is your point? I am not informed on this alleged border dispute not even the CIA has heard about. How about informing us what you are talking about as neither of the two articles gives any information about your claims of Germany demanding Polish territory or breaking any treaty.
By Shade2
#1251062
What the German government "did" to Poland under the Nazi leadership is irrelevant.
:violin: Pure little German nationalist, all the time trying to seek a magic wand to dispell history. Sorry but it is relevant as it had consequences for Poland and naturally it will be a issue.
You can put your little emoticon all the time you feel like crying because your nation beheaved like lemmings on suicide quest against the world, showing its great intelligence.

The time is now, not the past, and we will not try to right historical wrongs.

:violin:

That's not for a anon frustrated German nationalist poster to decide on internet.



Actually, the Soviet Union, the United States, and the United Kingdom did that.

Actually a certain German politician had similiar stereotypes like you and believed Poles to "not known for intelligence"-a ethnic slur you used(your reasons for doing that are obvious of course just as his are obvious), and believed Poles would be stupid enough to accept becoming vassals of Germany just like that. However once again German foresight has shown its legendary ability as Poles refused and "poor Adi" had to face wrath of France and Britain, not to mention losing fuel, ammo and men in Poland, 3 years before he planned a war.
Well, who can blame other countries in Europe want to limit decision-making of Germany, maybe not even for historical wrongs, but because of traditional German wisdom of making correct political choices, judgments and decisons.
In case you haven't been americanised, and still have much cultural baggage from your country of origin-I am joking.
Oh btw-is a rapist allowed to rape those who can't defend themselfs ?
I of course do not believe so, but your logic would come to other conclusion ?


The second article isnt even about a land dispute or sea area dispute but the handling of docking rights in a German respective Polish harbour lying on opposite sides of a bay (or something along that line) for German and Polish ferrying companies. According to that article there is an agreement that handles the situation too since 1993 (Article is from 2001).

So honestly where is your point?

Yawn.If faced with reality that dispells German propaganda-deny the reality.
Reality:
http://www.warsawvoice.pl/archiwum.phtml/1543/
How was it possible that both carriers had used mutually invalid documents for such a long time? For the Poles, Szczeciński Bay comprises territorial sea waters, while the Germans consider it part of the inland waters, resulting in different documents for ferries servicing the area.
User avatar
By alyster
#1251084
I know I'll be quoting Tarja Halonen, when I say that history can not(should not) interup today's politics. I know history is an important part of national identity, nevertheless to shape better tomorrow we can not grasp to yesterday. We could learn from yesterday, that's what we should do, but not grasp to it.
By Shade2
#1251092
Cool, so when will German state stop funding organisations that contain former Nazis and attack Poland ?
User avatar
By Zel
#1251094
Unfortunately, Poland signed an inter-governmental agreement with Germany in 1993 to settle regulations concerning traffic on Szczeciński Bay clearly favoring the Germans. Polish carriers have to obtain documents certifying the efficiency of their vessels in a German office responsible for navigation safety on inland waters. A certificate from the Polish Shipping Register is not enough for the Germans.


one sides view

Ryszard Maklicki, president of Żegluga Pomorska, said that another agreement was signed in 1995 recognizing certificates from both countries. In spite of that, however, sthe Germans consider the older agreement more important, with the regulations of the second agreement remaining only on paper.


other sides view

So this is a question of what is written in those treaties. I guess you havent read them, havent you? So this is a legal dispute of what treaty applies to this situation. As this happened what 6 years ago, there probably has been a solution to the question or hasnt there?

and to make sure that this is mentioned the first article you posted clearly states:

Poland has no territorial debts to its neighbors.

and
At present Poland has a full set of border treaties. It also has relevant agreements regulating border practice.


What you are doing is warming up minor disputes that are normaly sorted out between commissions and present them as alleged territorial demands. Using articles from years past dealing with problems that probably have been resolved several years ago and present them as legitimation for your insubstantial accusations.
User avatar
By alyster
#1251099
Former nazis?

Siim Kallas used to be a communist party member back in soviet times. Before Estonia stepped into EU he was our PM in the most economic liberal party we have. And I'm not talking about swedish type of right wing, but serious liberal. Now he is vice president of EU comission. People change.

Image

Isn't this the most hart braking picture in Polish-German history? I mean had Putin, nah I'd settle for Russias ambassdor to Estonia done that, I'd go to Moscow with flowers on the 9th of May...
Last edited by alyster on 27 Jun 2007 23:45, edited 2 times in total.
By Shade2
#1251105
Your pathethic German nationalist propaganda can't change the reality.
Reality:
German has territorial demands towards Poland.

Isn't this the most hart braking picture in Polish-German history?

Huh ? Its nice that the chancellor knelt before monument to Jews killed by Germans in Jewish Ghetto Uprising but lightly speaking, this doesn't change much German-Polish relations does it ? Perhaps if he knelt before Warsaw Uprising monument also...
Nobody disputes Germany did much to reconcile with Jewish people.Too bad it didn't do the same to Poles.
Last edited by Shade2 on 27 Jun 2007 23:48, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1251111
Pure little German nationalist, all the time trying to seek a magic wand to dispell history. Sorry but it is relevant as it had consequences for Poland and naturally it will be a issue.


And King Leopold II's Congo Free State project had great implact on the people of the Congo, but does that mean that the modern Belgian government should be paying the Congolese?

You can put your little emoticon all the time you feel like crying because your nation beheaved like lemmings on suicide quest against the world, showing its great intelligence.


You are aware I live in the United States, right?

That's not for a anon frustrated German nationalist poster to decide on internet.


I am not judging the issue from a "German nationalist" perspective. I'm judging the issue from a perspective of how the world actually works.

Actually a certain German politician had similiar stereotypes like you and believed Poles to "not known for intelligence"-a ethnic slur you used(your reasons for doing that are obvious of course just as his are obvious),


I hope you're aware that I was joking, hence the wink sign. As a Polish nationalist, you take everything said in general far too personally.

However once again German foresight has shown its legendary ability as Poles refused and "poor Adi" had to face wrath of France and Britain, not to mention losing fuel, ammo and men in Poland, 3 years before he planned a war.
Well, who can blame other countries in Europe want to limit decision-making of Germany, maybe not even for historical wrongs, but because of traditional German wisdom of making correct political choices, judgments and decisons.


Is this somehow supposed to be a testament to Polish strength? Germany defeated Poland militarily in approximately a month.

Oh btw-is a rapist allowed to rape those who can't defend themselfs ?


There's a brilliant quote by Kissinger on a subject such as what you're referencing, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Nevertheless, the point is that one can not apply standards of common morality between two human beings to relations between nation-states, because the inherent immorality of the nation-state is an integral part of its own survival.
By Shade2
#1251127
And King Leopold II's Congo Free State project had great implact on the people of the Congo, but does that mean that the modern Belgian government should be paying the Congolese?

If Belgian government would like to have good, friendly relations and beheave in moral way then yes. And the situation is different German nationalist, I know old people who still have nightmares about Germans murdering their families and burning their homes, I walk the streets that still have scars from German attempt to erase Poland from Earth. The timespan of events is far shorter and the consequences are directly visible to every Pole living in Poland.

You are aware I live in the United States, right?

And ? German nationalists are prohibted from living in USA ?



I am not judging the issue from a "German nationalist" perspective

Oh, you are ordering it ?

I'm judging the issue from a perspective of how the world actually works.

The world doesn't obey German orders.It seems you never learn...
As a Polish nationalist, you take everything said in general far too personally.

As I said, I do not value other nations about Polish one. I am a patriot, not a nationalist. For example I believe Chinese people to posess far richer cultural heritage and experience.
Germany defeated Poland militarily in approximately a month.

Germany never defeated Poland, as Poland never surrendered and its troops continued their fight against the genocidal mass murdering German state.

There's a brilliant quote by Kissinger on a subject such as what you're referencing, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

You have now avoided the question three times ? I am not interested in dodges you make and avoiding answers, I am not interested in Kissinger. Answer, or are you are a German coward ?

because the inherent immorality of the nation-state is an integral part of its own survival.

There is nothing immoral in nation-state. Although I understand German cultural heritage might have been influence in your opinion.
User avatar
By Zel
#1251128
Reality:
German has territorial demands towards Poland.


Your own articles disprove this. They are from a Polish source if I might remind you. Accusing me of German nationalism realy doesnt concern me as I aint German. What bothers me is your blatant nationalism that is out of place in todays Europe. So accuse me of Europeanism or what other labels you like to use. I dont mind as you have again proven that you dont have the slightest interest in a reason based discussion.
By Shade2
#1251135
What bothers me is your blatant nationalism that is out of place in todays Europe.

Oh, so suddenly speaking the obvious-how Germany ruined and mass murdered my nation-is out of place by this German dominated Europe.
Meanwhile German territorial demands towards Poland and financing German nationalist organisations that contain former Nazis and attack Poland is ok.
Germans having minority status in Poland, while Poles have none in Germany is ok.
Germany never paying war reperations and accusing Poland with "not dealing with WW2 in proper way" is ok.
LOL
If Hypocracy was a goddess she would come from heavens and made her throne in Berlin.

Accusing me of German nationalism realy doesnt concern me as I aint German.

So just a mere puppet excited at serving the Neue Deutsche Reich ?
User avatar
By Zel
#1251148
Its just relieving that there are many more reasonable Poles, those Poles that will prove your narrow worldview lies and become traitors to your warped ideals.

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