[ZeusIrae]

After the new treaty and all the discussions,I thougt it would be intresting to ask a very basic question.

Why europe?Why european countries created the EU and what is its goal?

Is there any need for it?Or was it an intresting idea of the XXth century that is now irrelevant?

And rather than european integration wouldn't it be more intresting to create an Atlantic Union?
After all NATO already exist and the USA already protected western europe for 50 years.Perhaps it's more reasonable to follow the United-States.Something similar to the "anglosphere" that the english like so much.
With time this Atlantic union could become the embryo for a world government.

So what's your opinion?What do you think is necessary?

[Thunderhawk]

The EU exists to create and cement ties between countries and further "understanding", so that they would not go to war. Its mainly economic ties at the moment, and is slowly creeping toward stronger political and legal ties too.

[noemon]

Europe does not need the States to prosper.

And the States have proven to be unworthy of running themselves.

If anything the States shall become Europe's satellite as it always was and that was the reason for its founding.


The EU is based on axiocratic values, that are and very hard to bend or be manipulated as are the States.

After years of bigotry, war and confusion the Europeans have indeed formed a collective will for equality and democracy, which sources from the depths of the soul forged in time, and not superficially expressed by usurped Hollywood norms.

[Thunderhawk]

Forged in time perhaps, but made on the anvil of Nazi legacy, heated by fear of Communism and formed with the American hammer.

[noemon]

GIVING CREDIT TO THESE PUNY EVENTS ON A TIME-FRAME OF HISTORY OF MORE OR LESS 10.000 YEARS IS THE LEAST LAUGHABLE.

[Doomhammer]

Forged in time perhaps, but made on the anvil of Nazi legacy, heated by fear of Communism and formed with the American hammer.

Then who was it that wielded the hammer?

[noemon]

That is by far the most interesting question i have heard in here throughout my stay.

[Thunderhawk]

Then who was it that wielded the hammer?

The rich.
Mainly European rich, some American rich aswell.

[Shade2]

Why europe?Why european countries created the EU and what is its goal?

Ideological groups have abused the consequences of Germany ruining Europe through Second World War to push forward the idea of EU.
Officially and early the structures that were the EU were to integrate European countries closer together to promote peace and rebuilding from devestation Germany brought to Europe.
With time however those goals were hijacked by other interests groups. Mainly the left whose goal was to build a new super state, and eradicated the concept of nation-state, at the same time desiring to challange USA, and French and German nationalists wanting to identify that newly formed identity with German and French identity thus creating a Franco-German state of Europe and satisfying their failed desires of being world empires. It also serves some nostalgia of certain people trying to keep the idea of Europe being important to world stage, while it is obvious the short period of European hegemony is over. Future belongs to USA and China.

Is there any need for it?Or was it an intresting idea of the XXth century that is now irrelevant?

There is no need for EU. It is a failed project that serves only interests of certain countries. It should return to free trade area status.

[Doomhammer]

That is by far the most interesting question i have heard in here throughout my stay.

lol I thought the analogy needed an explanation.

Mainly European rich, some American rich aswell.

Ok, now it is complete.

Mainly the left whose goal was to build a new super state, and eradicated the concept of nation-state, at the same time desiring to challange USA, and French and German nationalists wanting to identify that newly formed identity with German and French identity thus creating a Franco-German state of Europe and satisfying their failed desires of being world empires. It also serves some nostalgia of certain people trying to keep the idea of Europe being important to world stage, while it is obvious the short period of European hegemony is over. Future belongs to USA and China.

Did I just agree with Shade2? Yes, I did.

[soron]

Future belongs to USA and China.

Without a strong EU ? Yes. That's why we need to overcome past differences for if we don't then our only reward would be the laughter of Chinese and American corportations as they put us into the bag.

[Shade2]

Without a strong EU

Why should I desire a strong EU ? It already harms several of our Polish interests, puts limit on our industrial growth by CO2 limitations that are ridiculously high, closes down concrete factories harming our building industry, tries to enforce cultural values that are not ours, nope, can't see reason why I should want a strong EU.

That's why

Why ? Because Germans and French don't get their new toy ? Why should I care.

we need to overcome past differences for if we don't then our

What "our" ? I am a Pole there is no "our", your interests are different then mine.

only reward would be the laughter of Chinese and American corportations as they put us into the bag.

Its your problem if you wet your pants at the sight of working with Americans of Chinese, why should I care about your psychological fears.
As for us-nothing particulary wrong with working together with Americans or Chinese. Many Americans like Poles and are of Polish descent themselfs, the Chinese certainly have no hatred towards Poles like some Germans. So I see no reason to be worried that instead of becoming dictated by a German from Berlin, I will be working with Steve Wozniak or Paul Kowalski from Washington. In fact I would prefer the second option.

[soron]

Why should I desire a strong EU ? It already harms several of our Polish interests, puts limit on our industrial growth by CO2 limitations that are ridiculously high, closes down concrete factories harming our building industry, tries to enforce cultural values that are not ours, nope, can't see reason why I should want a strong EU.

The benefits surely must weight more than the "harm" done to you because despite all those horrific things it seems you people prefer to stay in the EU.

CO2 limitations ? What do they have to do with your economical growth ? New technology means new things to invest in which will create demand, profits, more business. If people like you would have been decision-makers we'd still use steam-engines (if any).
Your concrete factories ? I understand there are cartell-like structures in the concrete industry, but anti-cartell legislation is rather a sign of a regulated economy like in the EU than predatory capitalism like in the US.
The closure of profitable companies in order to sell them bit by bit and put the market under pressure by removal of competition is most of all an Anglo-American business model.
Cultural values ? Count your blessings because at a guess you're going to enjoy the same cultural export of 50 Cent, dime-a-dozen US TV-series and reality TV as we do.

What "our" ? I am a Pole there is no "our", your interests are different then mine.

In that case "our" without the Poles. There are currently 26 more nations in the EU you know. And it's not as if we would forcefully keep you in the Union. Go ahead and try it.

Its your problem if you wet your pants at the sight of working with Americans of Chinese,...

No, my problem is that capital is more mobile than workforce. We'll talk about it again once your job has been outsourced. As an example: Microsoft downsized their staff in Seattle and offered those who were laid off that they could keep their jobs if they relocated to Shanghai and work for 80% of their wages. Oh the joy of globalization.

[Shade2]

The benefits surely must weight more than the "harm" done to you because despite all those horrific things it seems you people prefer to stay in the EU.

People's desires don't need to reflect the complex relations of economy. However most Poles don't want high building prices or Euro. We have nothing against EU as it is now of course, unless it is changed to some state-like structure.

CO2 limitations ? What do they have to do with your economical growth ?

Are you completely ignorant about economy ? More energy, more concrete, more chemicals means more CO2.

New technology means new things to invest in which will create demand, profits, more business.

Yeah right, because money for that technology will come out of air. In case you forgot Poland is a country devestated by German war of extermination and Soviet occupation, we don't have the money for new technology. Of course perhaps it would be different in Germany paid 520 billion of Euro of war reperations it owes us.

If people like you would have been decision-makers we'd still use steam-engines (if any).

Yeah, if people like you would have been decision-makers we will be still living in caves because you would demand people don't use fire but microwaves and demend they invent the technology.

Your concrete factories ?

You realise making concrete is making CO2?

The closure of profitable companies in order to sell them bit by bit and put the market under pressure by removal of competition is most of all an Anglo-American business model.

Funny it was done by law by Germans in EU in regards to Poland. I don't recall Anglo-Americans trying to slow Polish growth though.

you're going to enjoy the same cultural export of 50 Cent, dime-a-dozen US TV-series and reality TV as we do.

Yeah I enjoy them more then German comedy shows in RTL where they laugh at a cow pissing or at jokes that Poles are bandits(seems you use the same jokes from WW2, not much creativity in your country it seems). The fine German humour...

In that case "our" without the Poles. There are currently 26 more nations in the EU you know.

You mean like 26 including Great Britain, Netherlands, or Czech Republic(which supported Polish voting proposal) ?

And it's not as if we would forcefully keep you in the Union. Go ahead and try it. Smile

Oh German its not like we don't like to govern EU, just don't try to make it your empire. We will simply block it. If Germany doesn't like EU because it doesn't satisfy its dreams of world empire-it is free to leave it.

[soron]

Are you completely ignorant about economy ? More energy, more concrete, more chemicals means more CO2.

But why would I spend more energy instead of using energy-saving devices and even safe money ? Why would I use more concrete which sucks, insulation-wise, instead of building a passive energy house from wood, styrofoam and rockwool ?
Chemicals mean CO2 ? I think you're mistaking it for the CO2 industry unless you're referring to some industry similar to that in former GDR which used highly inefficient Chemical processes in order to avoid having to use oil as a raw material. But that industrial standard is ancient - good ridance.

Yeah right, because money for that technology will come out of air. In case you forgot Poland is a country devestated by German war of extermination and Soviet occupation, we don't have the money for new technology. Of course perhaps it would be different in Germany paid 520 billion of Euro of war reperations it owes us.

Inflation must be pretty bad in Poland - wasn't it 460 or so billions last time you raised this ridiculous claim ?
Anyway your argument would be utter nonsense even if it had any relevance. Germany as a whole was de-industrialized after WW2. Everything went into reparations, and guess what: That was one of the reasons for the German "Wirtschaftwunder".
We rebuild our industries with the most up-to date machinery and thus became an economic powerhouse again.
Clinging to old stuff and moaning about it's inefficiency won't earn you nothing (and you will have to earn some, since you're going to have to look for 520 billions somewhere else).

Yeah, if people like you would have been decision-makers we will be still living in caves because you would demand people don't use fire but microwaves and demend they invent the technology.

This is getting really silly.

You realise making concrete is making CO2?

Yes but I also realize that the concrete factory 15 km from here is using a modern burner with filters, so even tho they're burning garbage they don't pollute the environment very much and on top of it they rid us of another problem (garbage).

Yeah I enjoy them more then German comedy shows in RTL where they laugh at a cow pissing or at jokes that Poles are bandits(seems you use the same jokes from WW2, not much creativity in your country it seems). The fine German humour...

You know I can easily stomach your unrelated rambling about WW2 Germany - but suggesting that I would actually watch RTL hurts. That's pretty much the same as suggesting to an American that he gets his info on FOX news.
Besides, if you need to know anything about German humour, just ask the Brits ... although I think in your case I know exactly what a Brit would recommend ... (Fauwlty Towers episode 6 ^^)

ou mean like 26 including Great Britain, Netherlands, or Czech Republic(which supported Polish voting proposal) ?

Yes. Are you suggesting they would all follow Poland should you decide to leave the EU ?

Oh German its not like we don't like to govern EU, just don't try to make it your empire. We will simply block it. If Germany doesn't like EU because it doesn't satisfy its dreams of world empire-it is free to leave it.

It's simply a matter of dog barking - caravan moving on. If you insist on standing still, then those who are willing will move on. Sooner or later you'll follow suit or fall back.
Your government pretty much used up all diplomatic credit they had on this summit. You can try to block whatever you want in the end the other nations won't allow one nation to constantly torpedo their own interest.

[Shade2]

But why would I spend more energy instead of using energy-saving devices

Because it doesn't work that way, you can't save energy that much to compensate for large industrial growth, and anyway this costs money which Poland-ruined by German agression and Soviet occupation doesn't have.

Why would I use more concrete which sucks, insulation-wise, instead of building a passive energy house from wood, styrofoam and rockwool ?

Because I like my house standing when there is wind.

Inflation must be pretty bad in Poland - wasn't it 460 or so billions

No, it was 520 billion.

last time you raised this ridiculous claim ?

Oh, wanting Germany to deal with its past and pay for what it destroyed in Poland is 'ridiculous', I get it.

. Everything went into reparations

Sorry, Poland never received war reperations from Germany.

and you will have to earn some, since you're going to have to look for 520 billions somewhere else).

Good to show your true colours and speak clearly that Germany doesn't want to deal with what it did, nor help countries it sought to exterminate.

This is getting really silly.

You are free to stop posting.

Besides, if you need to know anything about German humour, just ask the Brits

I remember much about German humour from my grandpa and grandmother-mostly how they made jokes about killing Poles and "Polnisches banditen".

Yes. Are you suggesting they would all follow Poland should you decide to leave the EU ? Coolness

I am suggesting you are a bit delusional to believe they are 25 provinces and one country in EU-Germany. Not all support you, and perhaps if you don't like you can leave EU ?

It's simply a matter of dog barking

So you compare Poles to animals ? Disgusting, you show how little changed in perception of mine nation by Germans.

http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm

To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated:
The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1

then those who are willing will move on.

Germany is free to leave EU.

You can try to block whatever you want in the end the other nations won't allow one nation to constantly torpedo their own interest.

Nations like Czechs, British, Netherlands which opposed Germany during conference ?
Perhaps you take your dominance in EU too much for granted.

[soron]

Because it doesn't work that way, you can't save energy that much to compensate for large industrial growth, and anyway this costs money which Poland-ruined by German agression and Soviet occupation doesn't have.

You know, I really wonder why Czech Republic or Slovakia (who have been occupied by the Soviets as long as you and even a couple of years longer by Germany) can get back on their feet using their own hand's work ... yet Poland, Poland can't even afford to buy energy-saving light bulbs from all the EU money they receive...

Because I like my house standing when there is wind.

You don't know much about modern house construction, do you ?

No, it was 520 billion.

I'll meet your 520 billions and raise you another 30 ...

Oh, wanting Germany to deal with its past and pay for what it destroyed in Poland is 'ridiculous', I get it.

No, Poland backing away from the 1953/54 treaties ... I think I'm starting to detect a trend here

Sorry, Poland never received war reperations from Germany.

That's because according to the treaties, 15% of the reparations paid to the Soviet Union were supposed to go to Poland. So you would have received your share from the Soviet Union, as a historically learned person like you should very well know.

Good to show your true colours and speak clearly that Germany doesn't want to deal with what it did, nor help countries it sought to exterminate.

Why wouldn't I say clearly that the "evil past" trump card no longer wins the pot ? I was born 20 years after the war, I never hurt or exterminated anyone, so I see no point in giving handouts to people who obviously aren't very reliable, saying from the way how you're backing away from treaties now and in the past.
I don't deny that your country suffered, but if you think you can apply to a guilty concience here I suggest you go and grab some snacks and limo because you're going to sit for a looong time before that happens.

You are free to stop posting.

And miss all those interesting posts of yours ? Naw.

I remember much about German humour from my grandpa and grandmother-mostly how they made jokes about killing Poles and "Polnisches banditen".

So at least now it's clear where your up-to date information on Germany comes from.

I am suggesting you are a bit delusional to believe they are 25 provinces and one country in EU-Germany. Not all support you, and perhaps if you don't like you can leave EU

I never made such a ridiculous claim, I leave that to other people. However I like to read foreign newspapers (almost every major newspaper has an online edition) so I have a pretty good picture just how much support each side has.

So you compare Poles to animals ? Disgusting, you show how little changed in perception of mine nation by Germans.

Forgive me for assuming you were familiar with this proverb.

If the "animal comparison" offends you, let me rephrase it in a more neutral way:
"Nobody gives a damn anymore what you do or what you say."
I trust you find this more acceptable ?

[Shade2]

You know, I really wonder why Czech Republic or Slovakia (who have been occupied by the Soviets as long as you and even a couple of years longer by Germany) can get back on their feet using their own hand's work ... yet Poland,

Slovakia was an allied Axis state, neither it nor Czechs were targeted for wholescale extermination like Poland which was to be simple torn down into a agricultural land of 5-6 milion German villagers.

You don't know much about modern house construction, do you ?

You would like Poles to buy credit from Deutsche Bank for a new house ever 10 years don't you ?

I'll meet your 520 billions and raise you another 30 ... Naah

German you make me ill with your laughter at the atrocitie your country inflicted on my country. Yea, it is very funny that Germans burned down whole cities with people in them.



Do you laugh at Auschwitz ? Do you laugh at gas chambers German ? Do you laugh at them the same way you laugh at my country being burned down to the ground ?
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities4.htm

On August 5, 1944, at Warsaw at about 4 or 5 p.m., the houses Nos. 105,107, 109, Wolska Street immediately behind the railway bridge, the so-called Hankiewicz houses, were suddenly surrounded from all sides by Germans, who threw hand-grenades and set then on fire by means of some white powder, which they carried in bags. There were many inhabitants there and lots of people had come here from town. No order to leave the houses was given. After the Germans had surrounded them no one left them: everyone was burnt alive or else killed by hand-grenades. No one could escape. Only those were saved who had left the houses at some earlier hour. It was said that the Germans burnt all the houses in which insurgents had stayed. In the Hankiewicz houses some 2,000 people or perhaps even more found their death.

Laugh Laugh German ! It amuses you German ? Did it amuse your ancestors ? All those burned houses, murdered people ? Were they a German joke German ? Are you laughing now at the vision of all Polish homes burned ? Are you laughing at the charred corpses ? Does the prospect of Warsaw turned to ashes give you a smile like the one above you made ?

The Germans ordered people who were in the school yard to go out into Maria Kazimiera Street, where they were joined by others from No. 21. Some refused to go and began to turn back; then the soldiers fired at them from all sides, killing them all. Among those who had been previously driven from the school was a woman with a child in a perambulator. She was killed with the others in Maria Kazimiera Street. A few moments afterwards I saw a soldier come over to the perambulator and shoot the child.

Was this a good practical joke German ? Are you smiling at the sight like you smile reading about Poland destroyed ?

No, Poland backing away from the 1953/54 treaties

Poland and Germany never signed any treaty that would settle the reperations in definite way.

That's because according to the treaties, 15% of the reparations paid to the Soviet Union

Poland is not part of Soviet Union Germany, I see you have a problem accepting the fact that we are a seperate country.Your postcolonial complex shows itself.

I was born 20 years after the war, I never hurt or exterminated anyone,

The smile you demonstrated at the prospect of Poland being destroyed speaks for itself as to your views. Or the fact that you refered to Polish nation as a "dog", nothing to do with Nazi believing Poles to be subhumans, of course...

So at least now it's clear where your up-to date information on Germany comes from.

And from such arrogant nationalists like you, who smile at the prospect of Poland being destroyed. Or German TV where they laugh at jokes about Poles being criminals-just like murderers of Poles laughed in Nazi times.

Forgive me for assuming you were familiar with this proverb.

SS officers telling that Poles are animals were driven off Poland in 1945.

"Nobody gives a damn anymore what you do or what you say."

Yeah, but you demonstrated that you do something other then just not care about genocide your country did to Poles but in fact showed a smile when responding to sentence about Poland's destruction.

[soron]

Nobody's laughing at the violence committed during WW2 but you have to understand that Poland does not have an exclusive right to suffering. Millions of people suffered and died in that war, and that also included millions of Germans when the war came back home and devastated Germany.
That picture shows a city that could just as well have been a German city.
And while this is all bad, you still have to understand that to the majority of Germans today, this is an abstract evil because they were not even born yet.

Did you ever bother to calculate the age of the people involved ? I think not. Those who might have participated in the raid on Poland as 18 year olds in 1939 would have to be born in 1921. Today they would be 86. Life expectancy of a German male is 75.6 years.
So remember when you're spreading you vicious hate around that most of the people you're accusing have either no personal connection to WW2 or they remember it from a child's perspective.
And that does include hundreds of thousands who remember being turned out by soldiers at the end of the war, being mistreated and chased away from their homes.
As long as you see nothing wrong with that you will find us unattentive to unreasonable demands like your 520 billion dream.

Now let's talk some more about Auschwitz ... the Polish government applied with UN to officially rename them into "Nazi-German Death Camp Auschwitz and Birkenau".
And only days after the EU summit, what a coinsidence. Still desperately trying to play the evil Nazi card ?

No, I'm not laughing at gas chambers, but people like YOU who were obviously born much, much later, and who obviously don't know beans about today's Germany are not the people me or anyone else here is willing to listen to.
Your agenda is quiet clear, you're a revengist if there ever was one, we could pay those 520 billions and it still wouldn't be the end, you would find other things to rant about and on and on and on.

If there's no pleasing people you stop trying to please. There is no evil involved, merely human sentiment.
Go find a life in this century because that's were Europe is living today.

[Thunderhawk]

With regards to building materials and CO2

For every tonne of cement you make (from quary to kiln to bagged product) you release a tonne of CO2. plus or minus a quarter if you use combustion engines or mainly green power for all the work (my appologies to Gnote). That is a huge amount of CO2 released. creating steel produces even more CO2 per Kg of steel (2-3:1)

Construction expends alot of CO2 just for the materials used. Tack on actual construction activities and delivery of materials and your tacking on even more CO2 production.

Green material is expensive. Using green designs and material only makes sense if the life cycle cost makes it better. The initial start up cost is often prohibitive for most green materials, especially ecologically friendly concrete. If the structure they make is not used fully or needs to be torn down after several years, then its often a waste of money to go green. Furthermore, developing nations need to (re)build their infrastructure and get it running. Going green from the beginning will increase the cost for construction and thus limit the amount of construction that can be afforded

Developed rich countries in the West are hesitent about Carbon taxes and fines for pollution because of the impact it will have on construction, let alone standing industry. Poor countries (developing or starting from scratch) should avoid such penalties like the plague as they will only hinder their growth.

You know, I really wonder why Czech Republic or Slovakia (who have been occupied by the Soviets as long as you and even a couple of years longer by Germany) can get back on their feet using their own hand's work ... yet Poland, Poland can't even afford to buy energy-saving light bulbs from all the EU money they receive...

Regarding Slovakia: the situation there is not so peachy. They have alot of problems with their gypsy and Hungarian minorities, the former draining social services and contributing little.
The Czechs recieved a large amount of investment into their infrstructure after they gained freedom from the Soviet block.

Furthermore, their industries largely survived the war and the occupations, Skoda factories were kept running and left standing by all sides as they were far to useful to damage. Their infrastructure was already operating on the Western model (like Standard rail guage). They didnt have the benefit of rebuilding from the bottom up with lots of funding, but they didnt have the hinderence of rebuilding from scratch either.

They are also small. A couple million Euro go alot further for 15 million urban industrialized people in an otherwise developed country then it would for 40 million heavily split between urban and rural.

A better comparison with Poland would be Croatia or East Germany, though they sold themselves to the West.



Poland houses one of the world's largest light bulp factory (China may have something bigger.. maybe). It is where GE, generic-name GE subsidiaries and the occational indepedant company get their incandescent light bulps from. Poles can probably buy them quite cheaply and support their own economy at the same time. Why bother with flourescent?