Why the EU? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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By noemon
#1257604
I find this argument in here the least amusing.

Europe is built on the most high-end legal schema on the planet.

a) One is always and everywhere the Leader.
b) Anyone can be leader(and i am not talking about the rotational system of Presidency)
c) The EU axiocratic principles put to leadership the most worthy one.

d) Be worthy and you shall lead.

e) If you dont like it, go live in Uganda.

g) If the fact that the Germans are leading Europe and ex-German memories are haunting your dreams, then one can always work hard for his nation and make it rise above and overcome Germany's leadership...In the EU it can be done, and this is exactly what counts. And the whole juice of the Eu story, the most powerful leads, the EU supplies the framework for a healthy nation, then it all becomes a matter of personal/nationwide will power, courage and work.

I for myself speaking always, i will do my best for my self, and consequently for my country, and i hope that i shall see Ellas reigning in European salons once more, now i know that there are no barriers to stop me flourish, the FRAMEWORK for my personal and collective effort is MAGNIFICENT, there fore all blame in case of failure is solely on my back. No excuse. The most powerful reigns, if you find yourself on the bottom list, then that means that you are actually and in fact on the bottom list.

In brief, One can travel, buy, sell, trade, whatever, wherever, whenever, with his ID card, one can overcome the corruption of regional governements and mafia, through the EU judicial system, The Human Rights overcome even the most wet dreams of utopian fantasy novelists. the decentralization of governement is fantastic, the non-unification in the poltiical domain has its plus and its minus(depends on the individual). One thing is for certain the EU citizen enjoys the best Human Rights on the Planet.

You dont want them? Because Germany happens to be leading you? Go see a doctor. I am sure some people in here can guide you towards the psychoanalytic ones.

The EU is not built around or for Germany, and its frame work is not designed to safegurad Germany's Status. Nor France's nor anybodies.
By Sky
#1260017
Mostly its based on an economical aspect. They have a well thought system inside of the EU so that every country will
have a advantage of it.
By Shade2
#1263776
Now let's talk some more about Auschwitz ... the Polish government applied with UN to officially rename them into "Nazi-German Death Camp Auschwitz and Birkenau".
And only days after the EU summit, what a coinsidence. Still desperately trying to play the evil Nazi card ?

Are you an ignorant nationalist or lying nationalist ?
Because Poland applied for this together with Jewish World Congress about a year or two ago, due to fact of naming it "Polish death camp" by western press, strangely German also. It had nothing to do with your bullying attempts at conference.
Are you disturbed by the name, or are you denying your Germany tried to exterminate several nations ?


[quote[
Nobody's laughing at the violence committed during WW2[/quote]You are german, just look above.

and that also included millions of Germans when the war came back home and devastated Germany.

Ah, poor Germans they only wanted to become "Herrenvolk" exterminate Jews and Poles, erase Poland from the map of the world, and look, they lost, some even died. And they had to move some kilometers from lands they germanised in the past. Oh the suffering. Perhaps I would cry If they didn't make a man handing out death sentences for Poles minister for expelled, or a man that mass murdered tens of thousands of Poles a mayor of a German city. Or if over 57% didn't support Nazism in 1947(now "only" 41% say that Nazism had "good sides", i wonder which? extermination of Poles?"

Did you ever bother to calculate the age of the people involved ? I think not.

Poland is still alive. No thanks to you I migh add.
By Torwan
#1263793
@Shade2:

A question (really neutral this time):

Why do the Poles and the Jews want to rename Auschwitz to "Nazi-German Death Camp Auschwitz and Birkenau"? Is "Death Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" not enough?

The additions "Nazi" and "German" are quite obvious...
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1263848
Are you an ignorant nationalist or lying nationalist ?


Is nationalism limited to Germans and Germany? Can there be Japanese nationalists? Can there be Canadian nationalists? Can there be British nationalists? Can there be Polish nationalists? ;)
User avatar
By redhat
#1263881
European Union

North American Union

It's all the same with the implications and groundwork for the same end goal. Totalitarianism, one-world government, what some refer to as the new world order, etc.
By Torwan
#1264531
Can there be Polish nationalists?


Of course - Shade2.
By Shade2
#1265707
A question (really neutral this time):

Why do the Poles and the Jews want to rename Auschwitz to "Nazi-German Death Camp Auschwitz and Birkenau"? Is "Death Camp Auschwitz-Birkenau" not enough?

The additions "Nazi" and "German" are quite obvious...

Because for some "strange" reason certain media have been naming it "Polish death camp".
http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=15779
The Polish government made the request last month to change the name of the site from “Auschwitz Death Camp” to “former Nazi German Auschwitz-Birkenau Death Camp.” It made the request to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), which has jurisdiction because the site of the death camp is a U.N. cultural heritage site.

UNESCO is expected to respond by mid-2006.


The name change is intended to stop the description of the camp by the international media, including The New York Times and the German magazine Der Spiegel, as a “Polish death camp,” which greatly offends many Poles because the camp was run by Germany.
“In the years after the war, the former Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp was definitively associated with the criminal activities of the national socialist Nazi regime in Germany. However, for the contemporary, younger generations, especially abroad, that association is not universal,” Culture Ministry spokesman Jan Kasprzyk recently told journalists. “The proposed change in the name leaves no doubt as to what the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp was.”

Many Jewish groups and individuals, both in Poland and around the world, are backing the call.

The Union of Religious Jewish Communities in Poland, representing the country’s estimated 7,000-10,000 Jews, released a statement in support of the government’s request.
Petr Kadlcik, the group’s chairman, said “institutional and national responsibility for the Third Reich’s policy” is not historically accurate, “but also becomes a present-day necessity” in the wake of constant newspaper referrals to Auschwitz as a Polish death camp.

Several Jewish organizations, such as the Anti-Defamation League and Israel’s Holocaust museum, Yad Vashem, have recently backed the name change.


Why some have argued that the name "Polish death camp" is a mistake, it has been used over and over despite corrections from Polish organisations, and it can't be called a mistake in German media when Spiegel named it "Polnisches Konzentrationslager auschwitz"...
So the question is-why does German paper Spiegel want to create impression it was "Polish death camp"?

Thankfully it will be harder for Germans to do that now.


Of course - Shade2.

I am not an nationalist-I don't believe my nation to be above others like Americans or Chinese.
By Torwan
#1265728
Because for some "strange" reason certain media have been naming it "Polish death camp".


Well - that's just plain stupid. Anyone who has a shred of knowledge of WW2 should know that it was a "German Death Camp" and that there is nothing like a polish one...

I googled it a little and it seems that many western medie, not only German, used the "polish death camp"-term...

:shakes head:

I hope the UN will officially rename it.


I am not an nationalist-I don't believe my nation to be above others like Americans or Chinese.


That is difficult to believe, especially when reading your posts regarding EU politics.

And also all the time when you accuse me of being a German Nazi.
By Shade2
#1265752
It iss difficult to believe, especially when reading your posts regarding EU politics.

You again confuse Germany with EU. I have nothing against EU being what is should be. I have something against it being a German toy for nostalgic dreams about world empire.


And also all the time when you accuse me of being a German Nazi.

Oh so you are a lier. I never called you a Nazi, I am not ignorant. One doesn't have to be a Nazi to be a German nationalist or to despise Poland-for example Claus von Stauffenberg certainly wasn't a Nazi yet he manifested German racist antipathy for Poles wanted to occupy Poland and was glad that Poles will be slaves in Germany.
German nationalism has many factions-Nazis are just one of many.
By MatthewJ
#1268939
Anyone can be leader


Even Rocco Buttiglione

"The family exists in order to allow women to have children and to have the protection of a male who takes care of them"


Dear dear, the collective can't have nasty men like these around can they.

What about poor old Jorg Haider, a moderate Nationalist who was anti immigration and for his sins, anti EU as well? That’s right, the tolerant, humane collective (the 14 EU members of the time) decided to cease cooperation with the Austrian government when the man was elected by the masses into a coalition government. The ramifications of this was the eventual collapse of the Freedom Party.

Whilst wer’e at it, let’s remember Pim Fortuyn, shot by a “lone gunman”



Mostly it’s based on an economical aspect.


When was that then?

It has always been sold as an economic / trade project to the people of Europe, but the truth is that even the originators of the EU, Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter, conceived the idea of a supra-national entity, beyond the control of national governments, years before people became disillusioned with nationalism post WW2 and embraced the internationalist idealism that followed.

As Shade 2 said, although some of the original aims such as the Schuman declaration / Treaty Of Paris were designed to make war between France and Germany impossible, the entire project is now a revolutionary supranational entity. Comrade Gorbachev didn’t call it the New European Soviet for nothing.
By Torwan
#1269474
You again confuse Germany with EU. I have nothing against EU being what is should be. I have something against it being a German toy for nostalgic dreams about world empire.


You've made it perfectly clear that you think that the EU is just a toy dominated by franco-german influence to create a german sphere of domination in Europe. So, as you obviously hate Germany, why should you like the EU if this is your view of it?

And instead of again calling me a liar, please save my me the time of collecting your posts and quoting them here and just the hell say how you'd like EU to look like.

Oh so you are a lier. I never called you a Nazi, I am not ignorant. One doesn't have to be a Nazi to be a German nationalist or to despise Poland-for example Claus von Stauffenberg certainly wasn't a Nazi yet he manifested German racist antipathy for Poles wanted to occupy Poland and was glad that Poles will be slaves in Germany.
German nationalism has many factions-Nazis are just one of many.


Even calling me a nationalist is something I regard as a very serious insult.

You were never interested in my political views. The fact that I didn't share the views and ideas of a polish nationalist government were enough for you to call me a reactionary nationalist who has not abandoned the dream for conquest and domination. With that kind of definition it's easy to call every German a nationalist and condemn him/her.
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1269476
Even calling me a nationalist is something I regard as a very serious insult.


Germans really need to get over the horrors of World War II, and equating modern German nationalism(and even patriotism) with National Socialism and ethnic cleansing. Germans need to stand tall and proud again, in the tradition of Bismarck and the Kaiser, but not to the EU Chairman.
By Torwan
#1269537
Germans really need to get over the horrors of World War II, and equating modern German nationalism(and even patriotism) with National Socialism and ethnic cleansing. Germans need to stand tall and proud again, in the tradition of Bismarck and the Kaiser, but not to the EU Chairman.


Don't mix "nationalism" with "patriotism".

I'm sort of a patriot - not like an American Patriot who can be openly proud of his nation, but I like many things and traits of Germany, and I think that they're very good compared to other nations.

However, I'm not a nationalist who thinks his country is "better" than any other country or has a "natural right" of "domination". And I'm not one of those stupid bald heads who're too stupid to talk in whole sentences and run in the streets looking for some lone foreigner or "lefty" they can beat up after they've drunken their brains out.

Accusing me of being that is an insult.
User avatar
By Far-Right Sage
#1269545
However, I'm not a nationalist who thinks his country is "better" than any other country or has a "natural right" of "domination". And I'm not one of those stupid bald heads who're too stupid to talk in whole sentences and run in the streets looking for some lone foreigner or "lefty" they can beat up after they've drunken their brains out.


Minus the drunkness(except on special occasions), I am that and always have been, and I don't consider it an insult. What I find to be a disgrace is that the German people have even allowed statues of Karl Marx, the grandfather of Communism, to be erected in a magnificent city like Berlin. It's an absolute fucking disgrace. Do the Russians allow tributes to Anton Drexler to stand in Moscow?
By Torwan
#1269575
What I find to be a disgrace is that the German people have even allowed statues of Karl Marx, the grandfather of Communism, to be erected in a magnificent city like Berlin. It's an absolute fucking disgrace. Do the Russians allow tributes to Anton Drexler to stand in Moscow?


First, this statue was built in 1977 by the East German government. The current administration just allowed it to stay there.

And second, it's not like we have a monument for Joseph Stalin there. Marx and Engels were political philosophers, the "godfathers" of communism, socialism and social-democracy. Their ideology had positive and negative influences on a global scale, but they were not responsible for any atrocity performed by communist governments.

You can't say the same for Anton Drexler. He wasn't a political philosopher, he was just someone who founded the DAP which became famous after Hitler transformed it. He was an average authoritarian conservative without any profile.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#1269595
If I came across a statue of Jesus Christ I wouldn't complain, it's hardly his fault with how others have implemented his teachings.
By Shade2
#1277547
but I like many things and traits of Germany, and I think that they're very good compared to other nations.

You got to be kidding me. The most militaristic and arrogant country that started two world wars, has engaged in industrial mass murder, a country where both most genocidal ideologies were created (communism and nazism), where racism took the highest form ? Who could consider a country with such record good compered to others ?
You've made it perfectly clear that you think that the EU is just a toy dominated by franco-german influence to create a german sphere of domination in Europe. So, as you obviously hate Germany, why should you like the EU if this is your view of it?

LOL. What a German nationalist absurdity-it reminds me of Orwell, but then again Germany has quite an experience with totalitarism. If one doesn't want to serve Germany then one is branded a hater.
Listen German-EU is made out of many countries, your attempts to dominate them may fail, and with Polish presence German influence decreases. The war for freedom in Europe from German arrogance and nationalism can still be won.

And instead of again calling me a liar, please save my me the time of collecting your posts and quoting them here and just the hell say how you'd like EU to look like.

Liar, go ahead, because I never called you a Nazi, knowing quite well Nazis are just one of many forms of German nationalism. So go ahead liar-show me a post where I call you Nazi as lie I did. Come on, I am waiting-liar.
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By Andres
#1281549
Shade2 wrote:You got to be kidding me.
I don't think she is kidding you. If you would read what she wrote and not what you wish she wrote, you would see that she is talking about traits and aspects she likes about Germany. I find them, in general, to be quite self-disciplined and efficient, certainly more than many other nations, and both qualities can be very positive (and please before you say OMG!!!1 efficient like in killing joos, please take a moment to think it through). I also don't think that is a joke.

Listen German-EU is made out of many countries, your attempts to dominate them may fail, and with Polish presence German influence decreases.
Why don't you read what she wrote? She did not say that she wanted EU to be dominated by Germany. In fact, she has stated previously that she doesn't believe or want the EU to be dominated by Germany.
By Shade2
#1282583
I don't think she is kidding you.

I didn't know Torwan is a women, my prejudice I suppose. Didn't expect such hatefull nationalism from a woman.

you would see that she is talking about traits and aspects she likes about Germany.

I can't see anything likable about country that tried to exterminate several nations by classyfing them as animals.

I find them, in general, to be quite self-disciplined and efficient, certainly more than many other nations, and both qualities can be very positive

Efficiency and discipline is for the robots. Humans should be free and creative. Neither of which is a national stereotype of Germans.
She did not say that she wanted EU to be dominated by Germany.

Yet she has an picture of a person who wanted to destroy Poland. Her nationalism is clearly visible.
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