[Typhoon]

In times of total war one would be forced to assemble the simpler machines that can be truly mass produced.

Designer of the F-16 Mr. Spey argues along similar lines and advocates that the US produces a much simpler aircraft.

[Dr House]

The F-16 is great, but has a ridiculously short range. It also (unsurprisingly for a piece of American military hardware) underperforms its direct competitors in Europe, namely the Rafale and Gripen-C.

[Igor Antunov]

Then build something off the F-16. Improve range, improve overall performance, and call it a day, bam, build 10,000 of them for the price of 1,000 F35's. With proper maintenance, excellent pilot training, and excellent support infrastructure (satellite guidance, better radar/targetting) you still run circles around 3rd world countries. And projecting power is done with ships and longer range aircraft.

Lets get real.

[Thunderhawk]

These are ww2-era germany-esque glory weapons, little more. As practical as a Buggati Veyron on a suburbian road and far more expensive.

I would rather compare them to pre-war production, where peace and money means a long shelf life was a necessity for equipment, and also allowed the over engineering of many designs.

[Piano Red]

Problem solved. Apparently didn't have anything to do with the OBOGS.

Source

The mysterious engineering problem causing F-22 Raptor pilots to choke in their cockpits has been solved, the Pentagon says. And it’s not the nearly $400 million aircraft’s fault after all.

The problem lies with a valve in the pressurized vest pilots wear as they fly the jet at high altitudes, Pentagon spokesman George Little said. The valve inflated the vest, limiting the pilots’ oxygen supply. It does not appear that the vest was affecting quality of the oxygen in the Raptor. The valve will be replaced; the garment’s use will be “suspended,” Little said.

Additionally, the Air Force has decided to remove a filter it placed in the jet to test the oxygen quality. Ironically, the filter ended up limiting the oxygen supply to the pilots. But the charcoal filter resulted in “no oxygen contamination,” Little told reporters at the Pentagon on Tuesday.

Accordingly, the Air Force will gradually take its premiere stealth jet off of the probation that the so-called “hypoxia” incidents — a term indicating problems with the oxygen in the cockpit — necessitated. Over an unspecified period of time, the F-22 will no longer be restricted to flying short missions at low altitudes near air bases. The first indication that the jet is off probation will be an imminent flight of an F-22 squadron over the Pacific to Kadena Air Force Base in Japan — which will occur at a “lower altitude,” Little said.


Since the Raptor was introduced into the Air Force fleet in 2005, it has been associated with 23 hypoxia incidents — the most recent of which occurred just this month in Hawaii. Hypoxia contributed to at least one pilot death, of Cpt. Jeffrey Haney, over Alaska in November 2010, although the Air Force officially ruled that a “pilot error.” Congressional inquiries later determined that the F-22 Raptor recorded nearly 27 hypoxia incidents for every 100,000 flight hours, a rate vastly higher than any other aircraft.

Air Force engineers have struggled for months to understand the source of the hypoxia problems — a black mark for an expensive airplane. (Figuring out just how expensive the F-22 is depends on how you count.) The Air Force briefly grounded the F-22 airfleet twice in 2011. In May, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta stepped into the engineering mystery by restricting its flights and ordering a new backup oxygen system installed.

The restrictions occurred on the back of a 60 Minutes report featuring two F-22 pilots, Cpt. Josh Wilson and Maj. Jeremy Gordon, who told the program that the “vast, silent majority” of their colleagues consider the Raptor unsafe to fly. The Air Force pursued disciplinary action against Wilson.

But unless a different engineering problem emerges, the Air Force might have solved its F-22 mystery. Little hailed the “safety record, overall” of the Raptor. “We can never take the risk to zero,” he said, but the Air Force and the Pentagon consider pilot safety “paramount.”

[Typhoon]

Problem solved.

Good news, hopefully the incident will not reoccur and US pilot can fly a little safer.

[Baff]

Next they need to fit the IFF and then it can enter service!


@Igor, I concur with you.
More cheaper airframes is better option.

F 35 pisses me off.
Since we have no obligation to buy any, I vote we don't. (Not that I get a vote of course).

[Baff]

Stole these links from a F22 thread in another forum.

"German Typhoon crew eat "Raptor Salad for lunch"

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/



A bit less pop-journalism and a slightly more restrained report.
http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fi ... on-raptor/

[Typhoon]

"German Typhoon crew eat "Raptor Salad for lunch"

Not surprising for WVR combat we had this kind of story before with the Indian Su-30 at Red Flag, that and the F-22 lacks a lot of the modern equipment (IRST, helmet mounted sight) for dog-fighting, fortunately however it has a very capable BVR capability, at least against legacy aircraft. If will be interesting to see if the F-22 can hold its own against the F-35, PAK-FA and J-20 once the low signature of these aircraft voids long range detection and BVR shots.

[Igor Antunov]

I don't think it's a dogfighter, neither is the J-20. Not sure about the PAK-FA.

The Chinese equivalent is pretty much a light stealth fighter/bomber meant for stealth penetration of radar networks and thus primarily geared for ground installation attacks, and perhaps a naval bombing role. It is very large and not very maneuverable but does feature close combat aids.

The F-22 seems destined for similar roles, despite being maneuverable it lacks the tools for short range combat and relies on it's sensors to detect at long range and engage, beyond that it is excellent for penetrating enemy airspace and delivering bombs, same as the J-20.

Knowing the Russians the PAK-FA will probably include a kitchen sink along with dogfighting capabilities. The russians can't afford to create specialised weaponry. Theirs must do many things. It must be an interceptor, a long range light stealth bomber and a fighter.

[Rilzik]

The f-22 is fairly capable at dog fighting and it is maneuverable. It's a problem with thrust vectoring and the Russian planes have the same or at least similar problems. The problem with thrust vectoring and the resulting energy lost but can also be a strength. Its a matter of pilot training and specifically training pilots to avoid those situations caused by thrust vectoring that can leave you an easy target.

This could have been caused by several things. Disadvantages imposed by the red flag operation, overconfidence on part of the F-22 pilots, or lack of training time for F-22 pilots due to the problems recently or just less veteran pilots.

But my best guess is that German pilots and really most western pilots are very well trained to take advantage of the weaknesses of thrust vectoring. US/western dog fighting tactics have been largely designed around fighting Russians who until recently have been the primary users of thrust vectoring. At the same time thrust vectoring is a new concept for American pilots, the F-22 being the first fighter jet to introduce it and the doctrine is likely still being developed and updated.

Not to mention the more up to date systems the typhoon uses as people mentioned above. But claiming that one plane is better then another because its update/development cycle is a bit faster is bogus. The f-22 has a lot of upgrades coming its way if they work out. But as a long term upgradeable platform as fighter jets have to be I'd prefer the f-22 over the typhoon.

That said the F-22 isn't nor will ever be invincible.

[Social_Critic]

i really don't get any of this, for sure. If I were in charge of the US Air Force, I would order about 1000 propeller planes with really heavy duty armor and two 20 mm, plus some missiles and a bomb bay to carry a single 500 lb bomb. This is what's needed to go fight irregulars like the Taliban, and not any of that fancy gizmo super fast fuel guzzling jet crap. It's not like we're going to go fight the Russians anyway.

[Siberian Fox]

The USA already has dedicated ground attack aircraft: The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II. As far as fighting "irregulars" is concerned, that role seems to be the realm of UAVs these days.

[Baff]

i really don't get any of this, for sure. If I were in charge of the US Air Force, I would order about 1000 propeller planes with really heavy duty armor and two 20 mm, plus some missiles and a bomb bay to carry a single 500 lb bomb. This is what's needed to go fight irregulars like the Taliban, and not any of that fancy gizmo super fast fuel guzzling jet crap. It's not like we're going to go fight the Russians anyway.

The airframes they buy are expected to last for many multiples of wars.
So they prefer are ones that can do many different jobs.

[Suska]

The USA already has dedicated ground attack aircraft: The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II. As far as fighting "irregulars" is concerned, that role seems to be the realm of UAVs these days.

That's what I was gonna say because that's basically what SC was describing - only I was gonna call it the Warthog (it confused me enough to peek at your link). These things buzz my trees at least once a month.

[Zagadka]

that role seems to be the realm of UAVs these days.

Yea, at some point someone realized that (a) we aren't really fighting organized air forces, and (b) UAVs are totally awesome from a military point of view.

[Piano Red]

You guys aren't using the results of yet another wargame exercise to try and imply about how a piece of kit (the F-22 in this case) is somehow lacking are you?

Has anyone even read about the details of the engagement? In a real world combat scenario the Germans would've been vaped. They even admitted as much.

[Igor Antunov]

You're doing the same, Pentagon PR. At least we have the outcome of an exercise on our side, you have your spec sheets. Enjoy them.

[Typhoon]

You guys aren't using the results of yet another wargame exercise to try and imply about how a piece of kit (the F-22 in this case) is somehow lacking are you?

[Piano Red]

Troll fail, Typhoon.

If the F-22 pilots, who's supporters aren't desperate for international sales, had made a tally for all their Eurofighter kill marks they probably would've run out of paint.