[danholo]

this is not a source

You're right. Palestinians, however, live in abject poverty even when the refugee camps are located within Arab countries. Jordan is different tough.

This is a source and it applies to how interested the Arabs were about the Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_th ... _by_Jordan

There was no Jordan before

Before what?

[keso]

I really love when the Fascist Terror Monger vermin promoters cite Adolph Hitler as a contributor to the creation of the Zionist Terror State. However other victims of Hitler find no homeland of their own for protection. No Gypsyland, no Queerland, no Crippleland.

Good question, why didn't the UN also find a home for these people also?

After all, Gypsy is an ethnicity. Queer is an ethnicity. Cripple is an ethnicity.

[Maas]

Palestinians got the shaft from everybody. Nobody was looking out for their backs.

Jordan is different tough.

Indeed. According to your source they were given 30 seats in the Jordan government. You're disproving yourself Thank you for playing

As I mentioned in my last post, this site seems to be not just very left-leaning, but harshly anti-semitic. In this thread alone we have seen jews called "vermin" and "violent."

Well... you call others Clan loving weakminded loosers.
You don't hold any moral highground.

[danholo]

Indeed. According to your source they were given 30 seats in the Jordan government. You're disproving yourself Confused

How am I disproving myself? They did get a shaft when it comes to independence. They weren't protecting that right. I said it was territorial expansion and that's what happened. The Palestinians didn't want a state of their own. That's nothing new to me. They just didn't want the dhimmi to be rulers.

Thank you for playing

Game over, yeah! (How so?)

[Maas]

How am I disproving myself?

By claiming nobody was doing anything for them, but Jordans did they made them full citizens with voting rights.

They did get a shaft when it comes to independence.

This is totally not what you previously claimed.

[danholo]

By claiming nobody was doing anything for them, but Jordans did they made them full citizens with voting rights.

Out of context, you do make a point. Jordan is Palestine (it was divided in half), and they merely expanded their border, absorbing just more of their own people. But that wasn't my point.

Why were the refugees still being kept in refugee camps?! The Palestinians merely moved from one part of Palestine to another. The same happened to Karelians who fled from their homes after Finland lost the war and the area came under Soviet rule (to add, Karelia happened to be territory of an independent nation). Where are the Karelian refugee camps? There are none; the rest of the Finns relocated them and they started new lives. This, like the Palestinian one, happened at the same time with other refugee crises during that time.

Only the issue of the Palestinian refugees, which is a political tool against Israel, is somehow "worse" and different and being perpetuated until this day. Every other refugee problem has been solved, even the one of Jews who fled from Arab lands, yet "Palestinians" still cling to their keys.

In other words, the Palestinians really got the shaft. Many of them remain in refugee camps, unlike every other non-Palestinian refugee from that time, being used as a political tool against Israel, forced to live in abject squalor and poverty only to fuel hate against the Jewish state. (I do not have sources here but even Israel has tried to relocate Palestinians under its sovereignty from refugee camps into normal conditions. This was attempted in Gaza in the 80's, by none other than Ariel Sharon himself, but the Arabs rejected (I can't remember whether it was the Gaza Arabs or the Arab league).)

This is totally not what you previously claimed.

Oh, really? I wrote the following:

Israel was defending itself while Arabs were more interested in defending their own pride. The Palestinians got the shaft from everybody. Nobody was looking out for their backs.

The entire issue here, as I see it, is "how Israel is stealing Palestinian land" and some here are even so bold as to say that they replaced the Palestinian nation state. The reality is quite different, as we can see with the annexation of the West Bank into Jordan, and the total disregard of Gaza when it was under Egyptian rule. (Well, alright, Egypt did fund and train fedayeen who carried out terrorist raids in Israel. It usually retaliated, only receiving ridicule from the UN. )

By Arab actions alone, I can say that a)the Arab war against Israel was an issue of pride and b)denial of sovereignty towards Jews. It had nothing to do with the well-being of the "Palestinian nation". Arab nations are mostly a product of the West, which resulted in the idea of pan-Arabism, which does make more sense in a nationalistic Arab mind set. Arab countries could be likened more to provinces or states but they are still divided into separate entities. (That could make sense since Nasser's idea didn't work). To them, the usurping of Palestine was a blow to Arab national pride and "disunity" as a whole. For Jews, it was an issue of independence, sovereignty, being recognized as a nation among others and relinquishing what was lost centuries before.

[Maas]

Out of context, you do make a point.

This was the context of your point that nobody was looking out for them. They got made a full citizens. To put it in perspective: that's something Israel has never done for the Palestinians.
Why they remained in refuge camps probably has to do with building-logistics / economics. Something you don't crap about. (yeah I do, I'm an engineer)

Arab countries could be likened more to provinces or states

Hard to claim since some were part of the Ottoman empire for "a while". Countries like Kuweit sort of already existed. A country like Oman and saudia arabia has been around for a long time. To put it in other words: your assumptions are without source and BS.

[danholo]

This was the context of your point that nobody was looking out for them.

A misconception on your part. Granted, I could've been a little more clear. Nobody was looking after the Palestinians as a people.

They a full citizens. To put it in perspective: that's something Israel has never done for the Palestinians.

They were full citizens. Some of them still are. Did Palestinians want an actual state or what?

Why they remained in refuge camps probably has to do with building-logistics / economics. Something you don't crap about. (yeah I do, I'm an engineer)

But you don't know, do you? For 50+ years? Economics? How much money has the UNRWA received, exactly? I might not be an engineer but I don't think it takes 50 years to solve a refugee problem, unless you're a Palestinian. I also fail to see what it has to do with logistics in this manner. For being "refugee" camps, they look awfully permanent. Somehow they got the building material for those "tents".

Hard to claim since some were part of the Ottoman empire for "a while". Countries like Kuweit sort of already existed. A country like Oman and saudia arabia has been around for a long time. To put it in other words: your assumptions are without source and BS.

You just said that many of them were part of the Ottoman Empire. Most of the Arab states who attacked Israel were created with a map and ruler. They were provinces of the Empire. I know that. How is that without source and BS?

[Maas]

Did Palestinians want an actual state or what?

Does this matter? Lots of countries got minorities. (as far as Palestinians were a minority) They were given a fair say/vote in, not only their own piece of land, but the enitre country of Jordan where they became a part of. That's is a heck of a lot better than what Israel did.

And that's how Jordanians looked after them. Which totally conflicts with your idea that they did not.

Somehow they got the building material for those "tents".

flying in food and tents just takes a lot of money and a couple of airplanes. They don't even need to land. Actually building houses and streets... that takes a labour force.

So where does that labour force come from? Say you find 100 people. How many houses could they build? Is that fast enough or do you need 1500 people? And when the job is finished... where do you find work for those 1500 skilled people? Or will you let their companies go bankrupt in your own country / crashing the local economy where you just build all them houses. How do you feed the 1500 extra mouths? Where does their equipment come from? How should their materials be shipped to them with no harbour or airport in sight? How can you build a city while people live on that same strip of land with tents?

I might not be an engineer

No shit
It took my country decades to rebuild what got destroyed in WWII. And that was WITH the help of the Marshall-plan.

You just said that many of them were part of the Ottoman Empire / How is that without source and BS?

Many?? I wrote some.
And you didn't provide a source did you?
Also previously you only claimed "Arab countries" and now you flip flopped to "most Arab countries who attacked Israel". About your last claim: it's more like half. Or do you think Egypt was somehow created as well eventhough it existed for thousands of years

[Tailz]

Littleknownfact wrote:

Pardon my ignorance, but when a nation expands don't those people need to find places to live?

Cities and towns do expand (and contract) as part of normal growth, but they do this within the borders of a predefined nation state. Since the borders for Israel and a future Palestinian state are up in the air, any expansion could end up on land thats going to end up on the wrong side of a future border - thus the disputes. Plus also Settlers use settlements to "capture & hold" land for inclusion within future Israeli borders - thus more disputes.

In addition, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Har Homa, the topic of this thread, in Israel? Yes, we can debate whether or not the borders established after the '67 war are legitimate, but since we clearly cannot come to a consensus on that point what is the point of this discussion?

As you mentioned, the debate over borders is still going on, and thus the comment of "Inside Israel" is really meaningless until the borders issue is finalized. Some have said the new Security Wall should be the new border, but even the Israeli authorities have gone against this, saying the security barrier is just that, a security barrier against attack and is not to represent a future border - but still its working in part of the "capture and holding" of land which after a while the Absentee law will swallow.

But as pointed out on the first page of this discussion thread, Har Homa is near the edge of the city, thus on the edge of any future border discussions. Plus also settlement expansion in and around Jerusalem has been seen to be forming a ring of Jewish housing around Jerusalem, with Jewish housing aimed at cercomventing negotiating towards a Palestinian state having East Jerusalem as its capital - the manufacture of the "Facts on the ground" that quiet often come up in finial border negotiations.

Then there is the fact that Israel agreed to the road map, and part of the road map is to halt settlement building. If these new buildings are being built for sale to anybody and everybody, I'm fine with that, but if they are built for sale only to Jews, I see it in the same light as building a new settlement.

Danholo wrote:

Again, this is another ruse created so empty land, which is no ones, is attributed as "Palestinian land". According to what, may I ask?

According to whom is it Jewish land, according to whom is it anyones land? Maybe its just.... land?

Earl Jones wrote:

For the umpteenth time, if the arabs did not initiate the '48 war, then there would not have been arab refugees.

Could you please start listing who your responding too when you quote someone?

Well there would have still been forced movements of people had the Arabs not attacked, for had the Arabs not attacked one would have to assume that the break up of the mandate would have gone ahead as planned resulting in two new states, a Palastinian and Jewish state each - both of which required the movement of populations (both Jewish and Arab) in order to make the "ethnic states" theory function.

But I was not originally commenting on "who started the war" but on your comments regarding people returning to their property.

Lets for a moment be honest enough to ask the question that, instead of dumbing down the rules for arab muslims, pretend they are actually swedes. Now if the arabs, instead of starting a massive war - decided to go back to the UN and demand that the lines of the jewish controlled areas be changed through negotiation, wouldnt that have been better?

And now you have wondered off to the topic of negotiated borders.... how does that relate to property ownership as per the original discussion?

Or are you so utterly hateful of arab muslims that this is simply not something you could ever hope they could do?

Huh, what? First I am labeled as hateful towards Jews, now I am hateful towards Arabs? At least I am not being biased towards any one particular side.

Are you aware that throughout WW2, the quota - because of the arab muslims - was a mere 15,000? I love when people like to give only half the facts.

What was the quota for immigrant Arabs at the same time? Honestly I don't care how big or small the quota was, there was a method to legally get into the country, it should have been used. A lot of countries have quotas of the number of immigrants they will accept over any given period of time, does that make them bad or evil just because they have a quota? Yes the Arabs caused a fuss and rioted, the Zionists were causing a fuss with bombings too. And the commission that resulted in the immigration limits took into account both Arab and Zionist aggression to come to its conclusions.

Jews were being slaughtered in Europe by the millions, and no fucking country on earth was willing to accept jewish refugees - so tell, enlightened one, where were the few jews who avoided the camps supposed to go?

Actually the US Congress was looking into changing their immigration laws so that they could accept more Jews from Europe, but Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine.

Ben Gurion informed a meeting of Labor Zionists in Great Britain in 1938: "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative."

Chaim Weizmann reporting to the Zionist Congress in 1937 on his testimony before the Peel Commission in London, July 1937 said: "The hopes of Europe’s six million Jews are centered on emigration. I was asked: “Can you bring six million Jews to Palestine?” I replied, “No.” ... From the depths of the tragedy I want to save ... young people [for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world ... Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it."

There were movements by various world states and people to "save" Jews from europe, for various reasons some of these plans failed to materialize - but to point the finger at the rest of the world in the blame game is futile when you start to also look at the actions of Zionist leaders. Zioniist leaders who were willing to throw European Jews to the furnaces, while after the war used them as a tool to populate the middle-east.

And like most Zionists you are trying to use the horrible act of the Holocaust to legitimize the Zionist use of Holocaust survivors to bulk up Jewish numbers in the middle-east by circumventing immigration laws that those Zionist leaders knew about even before they loaded people on ships in Europe!

And unlike so many arab supporters - I dont blame the british, they were pressured by the arabs, and needed the arab oil to maintain their war machine - I blame the true source of the problem, the intoleranct arab muslims.

As much as I agree with most aspects of this statement, you lose me on the last sentence - for once again you make the typical Zionist assumption "That its all the Arabs fault" and ignore Zionist actions.

The same people who call jews who were either ethnically cleaned from arab muslim countries or moved from europe - as if all other people are allowed to move except jews - "illegal aliens" - are the same nitwits who demand that the US accept mexican trespassers who entered the US illegally and give them state-supported benefits and a path to citizenship.

Amazing, these hypocracies we find in people, eh?

If a Jew (or anyone of any other ethnic/religious group) moves to a country outside of that countries legal immigration system, they are an illegal immigrant - that is just how it is. What you seem to be demanding is that because the Jews had a hard time in Europe, they should get a free visa to the middle east. The Jews from Europe who immigrated to the middle east outside of the immigrations laws were just that, illegal aliens.

Many Jews immigrated from Europe to the Middle East after the Second World War, and made it perfectly fine through the legal system of the time.

You clearly are not very knowledgeable on this subject.

So no Jew from Europe immigrated to the middle east? Although as you have already stated, the immigration laws in force at the time made allowance for 15000 specifically Jewish immigrants - are you trying to say the door was open but everyone jumped though the window instead of using the door?

[sploop!]

Why were the refugees still being kept in refugee camps?! danholo

For almost half a million of them, the answer is here...

Non-ID Palestinian refugees want to live normal lives, but are told: you do not exist

Mona Alami
Inter Press

BEIRUT: In the maze of dirty streets that spreads from Beirut's revamped Sport City to the shabby Halabi quarters, 20,000 refugees are clustered in what is known as the Bourj al-Barajneh Palestinian camp. In a town plagued by poverty, many families live in complete destitution.

These forgotten people, known as non-ID Palestinians, have fallen through the cracks of legality and belong nowhere.

With the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, many Palestinians fled their homeland to Lebanon. Today, there are approximately 400,000 refugees living in the "Land of the Cedars," some with no documentation, and not registered with either the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) or the Lebanese authorities.

"I fell in love with a Palestinian combatant who came to Lebanon in the 1970s to fight with the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) during the Lebanese Civil War," says a woman who gave her name as Manal, not her real name. That marriage eventually brought her to this camp. "I was foolish and very much in love. My father was opposed to our marriage. The fighter had been smuggled into the country, and hence had no proper documentation. It was the first time I heard of non-IDs."

UNRWA considers as Palestinian refugees "any person whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period of June 1946 to May 15, 1948, and who lost their home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the agency and who need assistance. UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948."

The agency's categorization of Palestinian refugees does not include those classified as non-ID holders, leaving them unable to benefit from refugee services, including healthcare.

Non-ID Palestinian refugees also face restrictions on movement outside the camps - and that is not all. "Aside from the daily difficulties they are confronted with as refugees, second- and third-generation undocumented Palestinians are beleaguered by other problems such as failing to graduate from school because of lack of proper documentation or the inability to get married and even to partake in ordinary activities," says Mireille Chiha from the Danish Refugee Council.

Nawal lives in one of the many tiny concrete houses in Bourj al-Barajneh. Her handicapped father is in bed all day. The apartment is damp and gloomy and its scarce windows look out on an alley flooded by a sewage pipe.



"I was married to a Jordanian Palestinian refugee who took part in the 1975 Lebanese Civil War. We had two daughters, who both inherited his illegal status. My husband was supposed to regularize his situation, but one day he disappeared and I never saw him again. Today, my daughters are aged 20 and 18; I've been to the Jordanian Embassy several times to try to obtain official documentation for them, but it seems their father is the only person allowed to make such a claim."

Nawal worries about her children's future. "How can they marry? They are not recognized by any government agency. It is true that the PLO may provide non-IDs with official documentation, which is useful in specific cases such as marriage, but I would much prefer my daughters not to take such a risk, as the organization is sometimes viewed negatively by many Lebanese."

Sobhi Hassan, a young man in his 20s working as a salesman in one of the camp's shabby stores, has inherited his illegal status as undocumented refugee from his father, who came to Lebanon in the 1970s. "When he died, it was like he had never been; he never existed anyway in the eyes of official agencies. I had to drop out of school when I was 15 - as did my brothers and sisters - because I was not allowed to attend government exams without the proper identification papers."

The young man was arrested several times at army checkpoints, but says he managed to free himself from the soldiers every time. "I have come to terms with the fact that I can only live and work in the camp; if not, I might be arrested and detained for months like many others."

Although undocumented refugees share a socio-economic pattern with other Palestinians in Lebanon, they are more isolated than ordinary refugees.

Most non-ID refugees hold some proof of identity that could facilitate legalization of their situation, because their Palestinian identity can be traced back to an authority once responsible for their documentation such as Jordan or Egypt. But since laws addressing Palestinian refugees have changed, non-IDs have been unable to claim an identity card from these countries of origin.

The current Lebanese government has set up a Lebanese-Palestinian dialogue committee to address the issue of non-ID refugees. But it has a long way to go.

Many of the refugees expect little now. "I have decided to never marry," says Hassan. "Why should I expose my kids to this life of hardship and despair?"

source

[danholo]

Where is the outrage?

[sploop!]

Here:

“For thirteen years, the Israelis have chosen not to hear us and not to see us. An Israeli premier, Golda Meir, said ‘There are no Palestinian people.’ But ignoring us does not make us go away. Nor will the Israelis prevent our attaining national independence. Since Israel became a state scores of nations have won national independence, including some that number no more than a few hundreds of thousands. No power on earth can stop a people from throwing off foreign rule, once they have made up their mind to do so. Israel with all its guns and power will not stop us.

“The Israelis give two reasons for not allowing refugees to return to their homeland,” the administrator continues. “First, the Israelis say the Palestinians who returned home would create a problem of security in case of war with the Arab states. But Palestinians within Israel are peaceful and quiet compared with Nahla and the thousands like her trapped in refugee camps. The Palestinians within Israel do not wish to be punished or expelled. The refugees such as Nahla, however, have nothing to lose. She will risk life itself to escape.

“The Israelis say, as the second reason why they will not permit Palestinians to return to their homeland, that to do so would make Israel bi-national and they don’t want that. They want the state to remain Jewish. The Zionists from the beginning, although they themselves were secular, wanted a totally Jewish state. This is why they felt forced to drive out the Palestinian Arabs in 1948. And that is why they rejected the Palestine Liberation Organization’s solution of a democratic state in which Jews, Christians, and Muslims would have equal rights.

[quote=http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/ref-halsell.html]source[/quote]

[War Angel]

BEIRUT

Done. Lebanon should absorb them (It's been 60 fucking years, damnit!), or Jordan maybe, or Egypt... but why Israel?! You want the ONLY Jewish country on Earth to look out for Arabs, who've got over two dozen countries?! That's outrageously moronic.

[sploop!]

I just want them to have the option of returning to their homes. What's so moronic about that?

Hey, I bet if you offered them enough money to compensate their loss, some of them would probably be happy not to return to the ruins of their bulldozed villages. Why not try that?

But one thing is for sure, no-one is going to forget...

[Nets]

Sploop. The whole point of the two state solution which both parties have endorsed is that there will be two states for two peoples, Israel for the Jewish people and Palestine for the Palestinian Arab people. To demand a right of return to Israel proper is a negation of the two state solution and is obviously unacceptable to the Israeli people.

Having said that....I am not unopposed to restitution to the Palestinians who fled for their property (some 700,000 people), provided this is weighed against restitution to Israel for the Jewish refugees they absorbed from Arab lands who came in a situation equally as miserable as the Arabs who fled (Jews refugees = 800,000-900,000).

I would even support a state apology from Israel and a "symbolic" return of 20,000-30,000 refugees to Israel proper, provided the Arab States (particularly Syria and the Gulf States) had to acknowledge their equally awful role in creating the "refugee problem".

War Angel makes a good point, the Arab Nation has 22 states (before Palestine), while we Jews only have tiny Israel.

Two States for Two Peoples. Peace.

[P.S. Yes, the Arab/Palestinians will never forget, but keep in mind Jews have long memories of grievances as well. Anti-Zionists act like it is Holocaust,Holocaust,Holocaust --- while in reality it is so much more. We still curse the Greeks for occupying our land. and that was 23 centuries ago! We waited patiently 2000 years for Israel, 60 years for the Palestinian Arabs is nothing]

[Maas]

Done. Lebanon should absorb them (It's been 60 fucking years, damnit!), or Jordan maybe, or Egypt... but why Israel?! You want the ONLY Jewish country on Earth to look out for Arabs, who've got over two dozen countries?! That's outrageously moronic.

Looking out for the Palestinians like a class of childeren?
You got a superiority complex.

[P.S. Yes, the Arab/Palestinians will never forget, but keep in mind Jews have long memories of grievances as well. Anti-Zionists act like it is Holocaust,Holocaust,Holocaust --- while in reality it is so much more. We still curse the Greeks for occupying our land. and that was 23 centuries ago! We waited patiently 2000 years for Israel, 60 years for the Palestinian Arabs is nothing]

Like the British would say: get on with it!
This is pointless to keep naming all who once kicked your ass. Half of europe kicked our ass,... we aint complaining.

[Nets]

This is pointless to keep naming all who once kicked your ass. Half of europe kicked our ass,... we aint complaining.

You ain't complaining because at the end of the day you have a nice piece of land to call "home".

Don't underestimate that.

Also, there is no comparison between the "Dutch" and "Jewish" historical experiences, completely different.

[danholo]

Does this matter? Lots of countries got minorities. (as far as Palestinians were a minority) They were given a fair say/vote in, not only their own piece of land, but the enitre country of Jordan where they became a part of. That's is a heck of a lot better than what Israel did.

How did "Palestinians" constitute a minority? What is the major ethnicity of Jordan as opposed to Palestine...? Israel granted full citizenship rights to its Arab constituency as well. The fact that Israel hasn't granted West Bank Arabs Israeli citizenship is, well, another discussion altogether. One, actually, which I am very lousy at. What do you know about it?

And that's how Jordanians looked after them. Which totally conflicts with your idea that they did not.

I was talking about Arabs as a whole, the idea of some sort of Palestinian nation and what were the main motivations behind the Arab states' attack.

flying in food and tents just takes a lot of money and a couple of airplanes. They don't even need to land. Actually building houses and streets... that takes a labour force. So where does that labour force come from? Say you find 100 people.

Jenin, Nablus, Tulkarem, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Hebron, Gaza City, Jabalyah... You name it. Are you saying that Palestinians are incapable of work and unskilled in construction? What do you take them for? As far as I'm concerned, Palestinians happen to be one of the more educated and literate out of all Arabs so I'm pretty sure they can get a couple of buildings up and running.

But, actually, Palestinian cities do not have tents. They are composed of permanently built structures, have paved roads and other necessary infrastructural parts required for basic or even luxurious living. As a matter of fact, all Palestinian "refugee" camps, which just happen to be a slummed extension of major Palestinian population centers, have been built out of stone, not wood.

How many houses could they build? Is that fast enough or do you need 1500 people? And when the job is finished... where do you find work for those 1500 skilled people?

I don't know. What did Jordan do for its own refugees during its rule of the West Bank? As far as I know, those Palestinians who fled to what I'd call "Jordan proper" have been absorbed into its host population. This has been easy because Palestinians are Arabs and, well, Jordan was Palestine also.

Or will you let their companies go bankrupt in your own country / crashing the local economy where you just build all them houses. How do you feed the 1500 extra mouths? Where does their equipment come from? How should their materials be shipped to them with no harbour or airport in sight? How can you build a city while people live on that same strip of land with tents?

As I have probably said, I don't know why the refugees have maintained that status this long. Every single refugee problem that has been created in those times has been solved except this respective one. I find it perplexing that you make it sound so difficult... As if Arabs were incapable of solving such a problem themselves when it comes to economic or logistical factors. I mean, [b]isn't charity a basic tenet in Islam[/i]? Also, it is not unlike Palestinian refugees lack funds. Contrary to all other refugees, the Palestinians got their own, personal refugee organization!

Until 1967 every Palestinian refugee camp was located outside of Israel. The Jewish state had no jurisdiction over any Palestinian refugees (frankly, they had a refugee problem of their own; Israel absorbed a population that was exactly the amount of its initial size, absorbing every single one) and their fates were entirely dependent on their own people; Arabs. I guess their prospective desires to return home was more important, and I do understand that, but I find it totally absurd for you to say that anything has changed in the Arab mindset regarding Israel and its existence. Palestinian refugees, and even their offspring, are kept in a prolonged facade that they will return home. Of course, this coincides with many of the wishes of board members here, but I would regard it honest to admit that this idea of "returning home" is more important then their societal well-being.

A good example is Lebanon where Arabs won't even take in their own kind. This has been on-going for decades and what good came out of it? Civil war.

No shit It took my country decades to rebuild what got destroyed in WWII. And that was WITH the help of the Marshall-plan.

Yeah... Political decision making requires an engineering degree and an unequivocal skill in mathematics?

If the Arabs would've got "a crackin'" this problem would've been solved decades ago.

Many?? I wrote some. Roll eyes
And you didn't provide a source did you? Also previously you only claimed "Arab countries" and now you flip flopped to "most Arab countries who attacked Israel".

Well, it is many, so how was my claim "hard to make"?

I didn't flip flop. Maybe I should've been more clear: not all countries played an active role in the "defense of Palestine".

What was I supposed to provide sources for?

About your last claim: it's more like half. Or do you think Egypt was somehow created as well eventhough it existed for thousands of years

The following was actually totally new to me:

In 1931, following a visit to Egypt, Syrian Arab nationalist Sati' al-Husri remarked that "[Egyptians] did not possess an Arab nationalist sentiment; did not accept that Egypt was a part of the Arab lands, and would not acknowledge that the Egyptian people were part of the Arab nation."[12] The later 1930s would become a formative period for Arab nationalism in Egypt, in large part due to efforts by Syrian/Palestinian/Lebanese intellectuals.[13] Nevertheless, a year after the establishment of the League of Arab States in 1945, to be headquartered in Cairo, Oxford University historian H. S. Deighton was still writing:
“ The Egyptians are not Arabs, and both they and the Arabs are aware of this fact. They are Arabic-speaking, and they are Muslim —indeed religion plays a greater part in their lives than it does in those either of the Syrians or the Iraqi. But the Egyptian, during the first thirty years of the [twentieth] century, was not aware of any particular bond with the Arab East... Egypt sees in the Arab cause a worthy object of real and active sympathy and, at the same time, a great and proper opportunity for the exercise of leadership, as well as for the enjoyment of its fruits. But she is still Egyptian first and Arab only in consequence, and her main interests are still domestic.[14]

I went to Wiki because I was under the impression that Egypt has changed faced many a time in its history, contrary to your claim that "Egypt has existed for thousands of years". I guess I was right but I don't know how it supports my argument.

[Gletkin]

Again, this is another ruse created so empty land, which is no ones, is attributed as "Palestinian land". According to what, may I ask?

The land was not empty.
And as I've posted elsewhere, they've been there since the time of Hadrian:

However, Jewish communities continued to exist, primarily in the Galilee, the northernmost part of Palestine. Palestine was governed by the Roman Empire until the fourth century A.D. (300's) and then by the Byzantine Empire. In time, Christianity spread to most of Palestine. The population consisted of Jewish converts to Christianity and paganism, peoples imported by the Romans, and others who had probably inhabited Palestine continuously.

During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Jerusalem was conquered about 638 by the Caliph Umar (Omar) who gave his protection to its inhabitants. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride from Mecca on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temples.

So it's not quite as cut and dried as some people are trying to make it out to be (i.e. Jews=Rightful Owners Returning Home, Arabs=Squatters With No Legitimate Ties To The Land That Arrived More Recently). The Palestinian Arabs are descended in part from those Hebrews who had avoided expulsion and remained in what is now Israel/Palestine.

Are you talking about the Czechoslovakian army surplus, bullets made out of lipstick shells or that dang loud but defective piece of artillery?

Those were the "legal" weaponry. A good deal of munitions actually came from the USA. The Truman adminstration had placed an arms embargo on Palestine but it was laxly enforced. Huge amounts of arms and ammo were trafficked out of the USA to the Zionist forces in Palestine. Much of it by the famous gangster Meyer Lansky who invoked this as part of his unsuccessful appeal to the Israeli government to avoid extradition back to the USA.

Wow, I didnt know we had ventured into a Klan club party. Amazing how so many people who are for "human rights" and support of the downtrodden are so for everyone - but that of the jews.

Unwillingness to pay foreign aid = "Klan"? Well Iv'e heard worse toward Arabs and Muslims.
Conversely, it's amazing how many people scorn "human rights" and support of the downtrodden as whining and self-pity but make an acception when it comes to Zionist ideology. The idea of slave reparations for example is scoffed at (I don't support it either) but there's no problem with annually sending $2.2 billion in aid to a nation the size of Massachusetts.....mostly out of sympathy for a horrendous crime that we didn't even commit.

And calling jews vermin is a good way to get a-carded or banned b- get your ass kicked

Calling Jews vermin is unwarranted. But I've heard things just as bad against Arabs and Muslims.

Jordan is Palestine

Only according to foreign conquerors (the British Empire and maybe the Ottoman as well).
By the same token Kuwait is part of Iraq.