How many killed by capitalism - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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how many killed by capitalism

200 million+
31
43%
100 million+
5
7%
50 million+
1
1%
10 million+
1
1%
1 million+
1
1%
O
27
38%
Other
6
8%
By Manuel
#1425570
No. According to capitalist theory, companies who did not offer their employees fair wages would simply see a lack of employees interested in working for them. This would secure that wages were kept fair across the board.

It also held that companies would not hide facts from consumers, and allow them to make fair, honest, open choices about products. In a spirit of compitetion, prices would drop, while wages would increase, upping the standard of living.

In theory.

In reality, it's a completely different thing. Like every other socio-economic theory.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#1425726
An ideology has never killed anybody.

Nothing has ever killed anyone.

People just die when they are too weak to withstand what comes their way, whether that's a bullet, extreme poverty or a war of resource procurement.
By smashthestate
#1425735
Okay, the next poll question should be "How many killed by disease, age, accident, etc.?"
User avatar
By Attila The Nun
#1425769
It depends on the criteria used for such a count. What is starvation because of capitalism and what is starvation because of other conditions?

But the question is itself irrelevent. Capitalism has killed more people than communism, but communism, considering its brevity and the amount of people it commanded, killed more.

There is no country that can even come close to the Khmer Rouge .
User avatar
By Eauz
#1425784
[S]mashthestate, how many people were killed by smashing the state?
User avatar
By Truthseeker
#1425785
0

It is not really in the nature of capitalism to kill,
only to allow people to die (when it could have been prevented for a little expense...)
User avatar
By ingliz
#1425962
m4nu- 'Says Law' was disproved by Keynes in the 3O's;Marx is still valid if applied to the global economy.I dont think mouthing platitudes helps your argument
User avatar
By Stawko
#1425988
Countless fucking millions.

As it is in the nature of capitalism for national bourgeois forces to expand imperialistically to monopolise new markets in the world, in the process competing with other national bourgeois forces, the nature of capitalism leads to WAR, and all WARS throughout the course of capitalism caused countless millions of deaths.
And that's just wars - ignoring famines, things like the slave trade, poverty of those in economic crisis, etc
User avatar
By sazerac
#1425993
As it is in the nature of capitalism for national bourgeois forces to expand imperialistically to monopolise new markets in the world, in the process competing with other national bourgeois forces, the nature of capitalism leads to WAR, and all WARS throughout the course of capitalism caused countless millions of deaths.

And that's just wars - ignoring famines, things like the slave trade, poverty of those in economic crisis, etc

Sounds exactly like the USSR, too.
User avatar
By Stawko
#1425995
Huh WTF?
It was not within the hegemonic class's interests to conquer new markets, because the hegemonic class was not the national bourgeois but the proletariat.
And what was the proletariat's interest - was SOCIALIST INDUSTRIALISATION. Which occured.

So WTF you are on about - only teh devil knows.
User avatar
By ingliz
#1426015
I agree with Stawko capitalism is structurally murderous: More industrialisation = More unemployment = More deprivation = Dead people, look at the W.H.O numbers.Pure capitalism is murder!
User avatar
By Truth-a-naut
#1426016
More industrialisation = More unemployment = More deprivation = Dead people, look at the W.H.O numbers.


Then what's the alternative? You prefer a nice agrarian farming community where everyone dies at the tender age of 30?

What are you bitching about, Capitalism or Industrialization? Do you even know?
By Manuel
#1426024
m4nu- 'Says Law' was disproved by Keynes in the 3O's;Marx is still valid if applied to the global economy.I dont think mouthing platitudes helps your argument


You said capitalist theory held that people must die. I merely said that wasn't the actual theory. I am not a capitalist, I am a corporatist.

That being said,

every single economic system would work perfectly if applied universally.

That's why capitalism works better in today's world than any other system. If 99% of the world were communist, communism would work better. If 99% of the world were corporatist, corporatism would work better. If 99% of the world were mercantalist, mercantalism would work better.

And so on.
User avatar
By ingliz
#1426035
m4nu- It works better for you.You don't live in a laissez-faire capitalist society.You only apply those principles to 'other' peoples to make your life easier.You live in a semi- capitalist nation shored up by socialistic reforms.
You said all economic systems invented if applied as written are 'utopian'.I would argue capitalism is not 'utopian' the design is flawed.The working class are a resource to be used ,not entirely human, and therefore expendable.
Sazerac- Well Stalinism is also known as state-capitalism :p
Truth-a-naut- I am bitchin' about industrialisation in a capitalist state or as organised in client states of that state.
Last edited by ingliz on 15 Jan 2008 15:11, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By El Gilroy
#1426042
Pretty much anyone dead so far.
User avatar
By Kapanda
#1426063
I agree with Stawko capitalism is structurally murderous: More industrialisation = More unemployment = More deprivation = Dead people

Where have you learned that?
User avatar
By ingliz
#1426114
Kapanda it is Marx - Surplus labour and surplus value -
"Everything is bought with work...like capital that is accumulated work,but the worker[who only has his work to be able to buy something]....must sell himself."
Accumulated work dominates live work.The capitalist may or may not buy the workforce.The more efficient the company the less workers it needs to produce the same value."The machine produces relative surplus value directly".This allied with Fordism and Taylorism leads to monopolies as more efficient companies force out less, leading to less job opportunities and increasing unemployment.In the reformed capitalist states, like the US after FDR, this is much mitigated but in a classic capitalist state more industrialisation = more unemployment = more deprivation = dead people

I'll make it clearer by telling a little story.
In this country,a very small country,there were a 1000 people making cooking pots.It was slow but they were very nice cooking pots.It kept whole families in work and they made enough money so they didn't need any land and bought everything from the shops.Two foreigners came to the country with lots of money and opened one factory each,making cooking pots.Their machinery could produce in one day what these 1000 artisans could make in a week and they only needed a 100 workers in each factory and they could produce them cheaper. So they sold them cheaper and everyone was happy except the pan makers:800 were out of work.In time 500 found other jobs:300 didn't,they became beggers and thieves. Some were not very good beggers and some were not very good thieves;their families starved and they starved.After a few years Mr Pepsi's factory got new machinery and only needed 10 workers: he could undercut Mr Coke,Coke closed down.Now there were 190 more workers unemployed Some of them got work and some didn't.Of those that didn't some weren't very good thieves or beggers;they starved to death and so did their families.Mr Pepsi was very happy: he could cut wages,lengthen working hours,he could do whatever he liked.There were no trade unions because people were too scared of losing their jobs.Profits went up and because Mr Pepsi was a foreigner all these profits went outside the country...A very sad tale.
In my parable my capitalists have followed all the rules of capitalism.They are not bad men but people have died.As they become better capitalists more people will continue to die.I would argue its not people killing people but the system.
By Manuel
#1426274
What you're describing is capitalism in reality, which is distinct and completely seperate from capitalism in theory.

In your little world, would it work according to theory, the men would opent he factories, and produce many low-quality cooking pots for a cheaper price. The pot makers could then do one of three things: join the factory, for fair wages, start their own high quality artisan guild, or begin a seperate trade.

In the case of Mr. Coke and Mr. Pepsi, there would also be a Mr. Sprite, a Mr. 7-up, a Mr. Root Beer, and a Mr. heinekken. With limitless companies, but a limited pool of workers, wages would drive upwards, and prices would drive downwards, increasing the overall standard of living.

In theory.

Of course, we all know theory never exists in reality.

In theory, communism is a utopia. In reality, every nation that has tried it has ended up a third-world totalitarian shit-hole, able perhaps to give its people some basic housing, but no where near the quality of its neighbours. People may have free basic health care, but those with rare dieseases die. Party purges are regular, and most government money goes intot he army, rather than improving the lives of people.

Fascism in theory, creates a nice, harmonious state of equality, and mixes capitalism with communism. In reality, you get Hitler.

Theory is not reality.

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