[Magnetonium]

And then some people still say that Palestinians "voluntarily" left lands currently occupied by Israelis since 1948. Its one thing when Palestinians in West Bank are being driven off their lands, but there's also this.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/hura-evi ... -palestine

Bedouins in Israel Are Being Driven from Their Land with Tear Gas and Water Cannons

On Saturday, thousands of protesters across Israel and the West Bank rallied against a plan to displace Bedouin residents of the Naqab (or Negev) desert. The day was billed a "Day of Rage" and it certainly lived up to its name, with several of the actions swiftly turning into violent clashes between demonstrators and security forces who used tear gas, water cannons, horses, and stun grenades.

The rage was directed at the Prawer Plan, a proposed Israeli law that would lead to the displacement of up to 70,000 Bedouin living in the Naqab, which is in southern Israel. Many of the Bedouin reside in villages the Israeli government refuses to recognize, and the Prawer Plan aims to destroy their homes and forcibly relocate them to government-planned townships.

According to the government, the Prawer Plan "constitutes a major step forward towards integrating the Bedouin more fully into Israel's multicultural society, while still preserving their unique culture and heritage." Anti-Prawer activists, like Khalil Alamour of the unrecognized Bedouin village of Assiri, have a different view of the situation.

"They [the Israeli government] have many excuses and claims and very, very beautiful excuses to cover their real reasons, which is to concentrate the Bedouin and relocate them in a very minimum space and take all their ancestral lands," Khalil told me.

By the end of the day, there were at least 28 arrests and 15 Israeli police officers were injured, including one who'd been stabbed in the leg. In the largest of the demonstrations, in the Bedouin township of Hura, a 14-year-old Bedouin child was dragged off by police at gunpoint.

Dr. Thabet Abu Rass, the director of the Naqab office of the Adalah Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, said the Prawer Plan prescribes different criteria for construction in Bedouin and Jewish towns in the Naqab.

"We are discriminated against by the state of Israel as Arabs," he said. "This law is going to hit one portion, one segment of the Arab minority severely, which is the Bedouin of the Naqab... the state of Israel is moving to put [in place] new criteria for a specific group of people, the Bedouin, which will prevent the recognition of the Bedouin villages."

The Bedouin have inhabited the Naqab desert for hundreds of years, since long before the state of Israel existed, and have traditionally subsisted on agriculture. After the establishment of Israel, Bedouin in the Naqab have faced a long history of home demolitions and forced relocation. "Displacement is the basic historical experience of the Bedouin of the Naqab," said Gadi Algazi, an associate professor in the history department of Tel Aviv University.

"What is happening now is that the Israeli authorities decided to solve the issue of land ownership and the so-called 'Bedouin question' once and for all. And they are doing it in a style that is actually well known. This is the shock doctrine," Gadi said. "It means, as they imagine it, that within three years all open issues of land ownership are going to be solved. And they are going to be solved in a manner that would leave the Bedouin with next to nothing."

Aziz Alturi comes from al-Araqib, an unrecognized village that has been destroyed and rebuilt more than 50 times in the last few years. Aziz said that by destroying the villages and preventing the Bedouin from practicing their traditional agricultural lifestyle, the Israeli government hopes to force them to take low-wage, unskilled jobs more connected to the Israeli economy.

"The government is looking for a way to change our culture, to change us, to confiscate our land," he said. "When someone has land, he feels like a businessman or a normal person. He doesn't feel like a worker or a slave or something because he cultivates the land and he makes his job in the land and he continues his life... Now when I look around at what is happening with the demolitions, I'm sure the government have the idea to change us to be only slaves."

[starman2003]

I heard that in the past, Bedouins spied for Israel. They passed on information about Egyptian troops. This is their reward.

[Ter]

The Bedouins in the Sinai are helping the terrorists is what I heard.
I do admit that what the Israelis are doing to their own Bedouins looks very bad.

[Buzz62]

Bravo for the Zionists!
More ethnic cleansing.
Such moral fiber.
Its amazing I tell you...simply amazing.
The great democracy of Israel.
Multicultural center of the Middle East.

Anyone else figure its time to cut off the gravy-train now?

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

This is ethnic cleansing. It may indeed be less bloody than the treatment of Native Americans in the Americas or the survivors of ghettoes and concentration camps, but it's still shameful that there are Zionists in power in Israel who think this is acceptable.

[Magnetonium]

I've read about the extreme racism against Ethiopian Jews who reside in Israel. I blame Israeli leadership and ultra-conservatives for stirring up all kinds of ethnic and religious hatred in Israel. Its becoming common practice and widely accepted to poke fun at people who look Arab or who are black. This practice can do serious long-term damage to Israel. Pelting stones and taking away Palestinian land is one thing, but when you are doing same stuff against Israeli citizens ...

[Wrath_014]

Oh man.
Keep talking about things you don't know a thing about.. Bravo, keep rising the ignorance.

Some of those lands, at least from the point of areial photos, weren't settled twenty years ago. That's first.
Secondly, I want to see you guys, buidling houses on state lands, then tell me what the city would do to you. You can't build houses (in their case, tents and tin houses) on lands that you didn't buy. Moreover, you can't expect that the country will aknowledge every "village" that rises up illegally. For example, you come with your family decides that this land is good for you, settle down, than more people join you (members of the family, cousins and such) and you got youself a village that wasn't there before. They demend water and electricity infrastructure which is impossible to do when you have villages like that rise up everytime.

The plan is to move them in to cities and villages which will have all of the above. Such as Ra'at (A bedouin city near Be'er Sheva).


All those wrong terms that people are trying, desperately, to "imprint" on this "issue", such as "Ethnic Cleansing" is plain wrong and possibly going for the "demagouge" way. The government is not placing Jews instead of them, the plan is to move them to villages and cities which are legal and have city plans and infrastructure, not like today, where they steal electricity and water.


And like many cases today, this fight is being taking over by Arab nationalists who suddenly labled them as Palestinians.... Really? Now they're Palestinians??? But, before they were Israelis.... Great..I just love how they play the identity game. When it's good for them to be Israelis and have a Blud ID which gives them all the rights and duties (which alot of them don't do..) they're Israelis, but when you gotta to play the weak and the small suddenly they become Palestinians.
Lies and more lies, just sickens me to watch that...

Oh they didn't published that the riots in Haifa were done by Arab majority and really small crowd of Bedouins, or did they forget to publish that??? Yet again we see that a fight for a change is being taking over by extreme muslims and other right wing parties..

Bedouins are nomadic in their nature, you can't settle where ever you want, and decide it's yours. It doesn't work that way.
If they can do it, why can't I?!
Please, use your common sense !!

Keep eating those stories, it really builds up your reputation in understanding the middle east....

[wat0n]

Oh man.
Keep talking about things you don't know a thing about.. Bravo, keep rising the ignorance.

Some of those lands, at least from the point of areial photos, weren't settled twenty years ago. That's first.
Secondly, I want to see you guys, buidling houses on state lands, then tell me what the city would do to you. You can't build houses (in their case, tents and tin houses) on lands that you didn't buy. Moreover, you can't expect that the country will aknowledge every "village" that rises up illegally. For example, you come with your family decides that this land is good for you, settle down, than more people join you (members of the family, cousins and such) and you got youself a village that wasn't there before. They demend water and electricity infrastructure which is impossible to do when you have villages like that rise up everytime.

The plan is to move them in to cities and villages which will have all of the above. Such as Ra'at (A bedouin city near Be'er Sheva).


All those wrong terms that people are trying, desperately, to "imprint" on this "issue", such as "Ethnic Cleansing" is plain wrong and possibly going for the "demagouge" way. The government is not placing Jews instead of them, the plan is to move them to villages and cities which are legal and have city plans and infrastructure, not like today, where they steal electricity and water.


And like many cases today, this fight is being taking over by Arab nationalists who suddenly labled them as Palestinians.... Really? Now they're Palestinians??? But, before they were Israelis.... Great..I just love how they play the identity game. When it's good for them to be Israelis and have a Blud ID which gives them all the rights and duties (which alot of them don't do..) they're Israelis, but when you gotta to play the weak and the small suddenly they become Palestinians.
Lies and more lies, just sickens me to watch that...

Oh they didn't published that the riots in Haifa were done by Arab majority and really small crowd of Bedouins, or did they forget to publish that??? Yet again we see that a fight for a change is being taking over by extreme muslims and other right wing parties..

I think a bit of history may help to clarify Wrath's argument here. From Wikipedia:

The Ottoman empire[edit]

During the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, the semi-arid region of the Negev was inhabited mostly by semi-nomadic Bedouin tribes.[21]

In 1858 the Turks enacted a law stating that all landowners names must be officially documented as a means of regulating matters relating to land in the Ottoman Empire. Most of the land in the Negev was classified as muwat (dead land, wasteland unsuitable for cultivation).

The Bedouin did not create a written record of their connection to the land, and some argue that even opposed to it, since it would make them subject to the Ottoman empire, what would require them to pay taxes and serve in the Ottoman army. Also, when the publication of the Ottoman Lands Ordinance, the Negev area had no permanent settlement.

By the year 1896 Negev Bedouin lived in almost complete freedom. The Ottomans were not interested and did not intervene in the Negev and the Bedouins. According to Yosef Ben-Dor, only after a tribal war, the Turkish government marked tribal boundaries, but did not give the Bedouins in this agreement "ownership" of tribal territorial lands.[22]

British Mandate[edit]

The British government adopted the Ottoman land laws, and added to them the Land Ordinance, intended to prevent squatting and recognition of unauthorized takeover of land.

In 1921, the government of the British Mandate issued an order for all the Negev residents to register their land. According to the Land Ordinance of 1921, any Bedouin who cultivated and improved a "mewat" (dead) land received a confirmation of ownership on that same land. Although the Bedouin were granted with a special extension of two-month to register their land, they have never done so, and the land remained unregistered.[23]

Mandate authorities also conducted a preliminary registration of land and since 1934 began to collect land taxes. Mandatory maps show the location of the Bedouin tribes, however, the maps never marked the boundaries of each tribe.

The 1947 report of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine estimated the number of bedouins in the Beersheba district to be about 90,000.[24] In preparation for a 1946 census of Palestine that was never carried out, the British government surveyed all the tribes in situ and concluded that the number of bedouin in the Beersheba district was about 92,000 out of 127,000 in the whole country.[25] It also reported that they cultivated about two million dunums of cereal land and that aerial photographs of the northern Beersheva taken by the Royal Air Force revealed the existence of 3,389 houses and 8,722 tents."[25] The same figure of two million dunams appeared in a 1944/5 book of Yosef Weitz, but in contrast "Shimoni and Tartakover estimate the area cultivated by Bedouin in the Negev at only 60,000 dunam."[26]

According to Sasson Bar Zvi, a cultural researcher of the Negev Bedouin, and Arie Efrat who served as director for the Arab villages in the south, the lack of water in the Negev area did not allow its residents to revive the land and therefore they preferred nomadic life and shepherding to an organized and rental land cultivation, and this is why the land remained a desolate area.[27]

According to the Bedouin, although they did not document land ownership, the Turkish government and the British recognized the rights of ownership of land in which they roamed, and this recognition was expressed when the Bedouins sold land to the Zionist movement during the British Mandate, and the sales were recognized and recorded in the land registry (Tabu). In contrast, Dr. Yosef Ben-David explains this fact by claiming that the Ottoman and British authorities saw a blessing in transferring land from the Bedouin to the applicant for registration, because they will be likely to use land intensively, without the authorities taking into consideration any legal rights the Bedouins had to the land recognized by either government.[23]

Furthermore, Jews who dealt with redemption of lands in the establishment of Israel gave ex gratia funds to the Bedouin to enable the rapid registration of Israel lands in the land registry, and not because legal recognition of ownership of the Bedouin on the land. Since the beginning of the 1930s and until the establishment of the State of Israel, the Bedouin sold almost 765,000 dunams of land, of which about 180,000 sold to JNF representatives and about 45,000 dunams to private Jews. The rest 545,000 dunams, were sold mainly to Arab peasants from the Gaza Strip.[28]

Israel[edit]

During the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the Negev region saw harsh battles between the newly created Israel Defense Forces and the Egyptian army. In the aftermath of the war, most of the Negev was included within the borders of the newly established State of Israel. Censuses before and after the war indicate that about 80% of the Bedouin population left the Negev to areas that remained under Arab rule.[29]

The Israeli authorities' treatment of the Bedouin population was ambivalent. On the one hand, the Bedouin were considered loyal to the new state, and some of them even volunteered to serve in the IDF. On the other hand, Israel saw the Negev as its "hinterland", being sparsely populated and as the West Bank came under Jordanian rule. The policy eventually adopted was forcing the Bedouin to concentrate in an area of 1,100 km2, that has become known as the Siyagh (Arabic for "the permitted area") region, stretching between the West Bank border to the north-east, Be'er Sheva to the south-west and Arad to the south. All the Bedouin remaining under Israeli rule were granted Israeli citizenship, but the Siyagh region was placed under martial law until 1966, like many other mostly Arab-populated areas in Israel at the time.[29][30] This was the time when most of the unrecognized villages of today were established.[clarification needed]

The Bedouin claims for ownership on lands in the Negev were, by and large, rejected by the Israeli authorities, on the pretext that the ownership is not appropriately documented or that the lands claimed are not eligible to private ownership. Both Bedouin citizens and state authorities agree that only a small minority of the claim can be backed with full legally valid documentation, however the Bedouin claimants demand that their traditional ties with the lands, namely the fact that they de facto held the rights on these lands without objection on behalf of the former Ottoman or British authorities, be recognized by the State of Israel as ownership.

Implementing her land policies, Israel started to rely on the Ottoman Land Code of 1858, the only preceding law frame in the region. According to these regulations, lands that were not registered as of private ownership, were considered state lands. Israel relied mainly on Tabu recordings. Most of the Bedouin land fell under the Ottoman class of 'non-workable' (mawat) land and thus belonged to the state under Ottoman law. Eventually, Israel nationalized most of the Negev lands, using The Land Rights Settlement Ordinance from 1969.[30][31][32]

In order to reinforce the invisible Siyag fence and sedentarize the Bedouin, the State employed a reining mechanism, the Black Goat Law of 1950. The Black Goat Law curbed grazing so as to prevent land erosion, prohibiting the grazing of goats outside recognized land holdings.[citation needed] Since few Bedouin territorial claims were recognized, most grazing was thereby rendered illegal.

Most Bedouin who had the option, preferred not to register their lands under the Ottoman rule as this would mean being taxed without representation or services. Those whose land claims were recognized found it almost impossible to keep their goats within the periphery of their newly limited range. Into the 1970s and 1980s, only a small portion of the Bedouin were able to continue to graze their goats. Instead of migrating with their goats in search of pasture, the majority of the Bedouin migrated in search of wage-labor.[21]

In the mid-1970s Israel let the Negev Bedouin register their land claims and issued special certificates that served as the basis for the "right of possession" later granted by the government. Following the signing of the Treaty of Peace with Egypt, it became necessary to move an airport from a Sinai peninsula to a locality inhabited by some five thousand Bedouin. The government, recognizing these land claim certificates, negotiated with the certificate holders and paid compensation to them. Most moved to Bedouin townships, built houses and established businesses.[33]

The Israeli government has promoted the sedentarization of the Bedouin population. In 1963, Moshe Dayan said:“ We should transform the Bedouins into an urban proletariat – in industry, services, construction, and agriculture. 88% of the Israeli population are not farmers, let the Bedouin be like them. Indeed, this will be a radical move which means that the Bedouin would not live on his land with his herds, but would become an urban person who comes home in the afternoon and puts his slippers on. His children will get used to a father who wears pants, without a dagger, and who does not pick out their nits in public. They will go to school, their hair combed and parted. This will be a revolution, but it can be achieved in two generations." ”

—Israeli General Moshe Dayan to Haaretz, 1963[21][34]

Dayan added, "Without coercion but with governmental direction ... this phenomenon of the Bedouins will disappear".

So it seems the Bedouins didn't register the land they inhabited since the Ottoman era neither during the Ottoman rule nor the British one, even though they were given the chance to do so by both the Ottomans and the British at the time. Since their land was classified as uninhabitable by the relevant 1858 Ottoman law and wasn't registered in the Tabu by the Bedouin inhabitants, it was declared as state land. But what's this land law, anyway? Why did the Ottomans pass such a law in 1858? Let's see:

The Ottoman Land Code of 1858 (recorded as 1274 in the Islamic Calendar)[1] was the beginning of a systematic land reform programme during the Tanzimat (reform) period of the Ottoman Empire in the second half of the 19th century. This was followed by the 1873 land emancipation act.

Prior to 1858, land in Ottoman Syria, then a part of the Ottoman Empire since 1516, was cultivated or occupied mainly by peasants. Land ownership was regulated by people living on the land according to customs and traditions. Usually, land was communally owned by village residents, though land could be owned by individuals or families.[2] The Ottoman Empire classified land into five categories: "1)Arazi Memluke- Lands held in fee simple, freehold lands 2)Arazi Mirie- Crown lands belonging to the state exchequer 3)Arazi Mevkufe- Lands possessed in mortmain, but tenanted by a kind of copyhold 4)Arazi Metruke- Lands abandoned without cultivation or ostensible owner 5)Arazi Mevat- Dead lands, uncultivated and unappropriated[3]

Arazi Memluke lands were properties that were owned by private individuals that were collected through conquest, state endowment, or inheritance. These lands were subject to taxation by the Ottoman Empire. Arazi Mirie lands were state owned properties that the Ottoman sultan could bestow to loyal subjects, Viziers, and Military commanders (these lands are kept through payments to the Ottoman Empire).Arazi Mevkufe is land constituting Arazi Memluke which has been made Vakf in accordance with the Sharia. Vakf means that the Ottoman Sultan has assigned the tithes or taxes to a specific object as oppossed to an individual. Arazi Metruke is land that has been allocated for public use (ex. roads). Arazi Mevat is land that nobody has claimed ownership of which has subsequently been neglected and remains uncultivated".[4]

In 1858 the Ottoman Empire introduced The Ottoman Land Code of 1858, requiring land owners to register ownership. The reasons behind the law were twofold. (1) to increase tax revenue, and (2) to exercise greater state control over the area. Peasants, however, saw no need to register claims, for several reasons:[2]

land owners were subject to military service in the Ottoman Army
general opposition to official regulations from the Ottoman Empire
evasion of taxes and registration fees to the Ottoman Empire

The registration process itself was open to misregistration and manipulation. Land collectively owned by village residents ended up registered to one villager, and merchants and local Ottoman administrators took the opportunity to register large areas of land to their own name. The result was land that became the legal property of people who had never lived on the land, while the peasants, having lived there for generations, retained possession, but became tenants of absentee owners.[2]

So, the Ottomans wanted to modernize their Empire and tax their subjects - which they obviously didn't want to pay -, one way to do so was to force them to register land. The process itself was open to abuse and the Arabs were at a disadvantage because this land registry system also assumes they can read and write, those who don't are obviously at a disadvantage. Furthermore, Jews (and maybe non-Muslims in general, I don't know) were only allowed to register land in 1873 as part of the emancipation act mentioned above, so the system was effectively biased against them as well. This is actually part of a wider problem in the region too, for example, most Palestinian refugees weren't legally owners of the land IIRC as this law in practice concentrated property in a few hands.

Israel could in principle abolish this system, yet doing so would undermine the property rights of everyone, property rights that have been recognized by the rulers in the region for 155 years now. It doesn't seem like a viable alternative to me. Thankfully, since this land is owned by the State, it should be easier to accommodate these Bedouin claims (and it has tried to do so so, in fact this Prawer Plan is supposedly the practical implementation of the recommendations of the Goldberg Commission, which include recognizing unrecognized villages that don't interfere with wider development plans in the Negev) yet even then things aren't that simple as Bedouins don't recognize or care about wider regional development issues and also:

Hindrances for the arrangement[edit]

One of the main hindrances in finding a solution for the illegal settlement is the Bedouin Tribal Law which states that one should not settle on a land that other Bedouin claims to own it.[5]

According to the head of the unrecognized villages – Hussein Abu Pia testifying in front of the Goldberg Committee members: "If the land is in a one Bedouin's claim of ownership, the other will not come close. He would not dare. He will prefer to live in a cave, instead of approaching the land".[62]

There is a common phenomenon of the Bedouin who receive compensation and new homes in legal towns, yet return and construct again in state lands thus not fulfilling the agreements signed with the government. They were paid a compensation for relinquishing their claims to the state, but still claim ownership on the land to other Bedouin, so the problem remains unsolved. The town of Kuseife, for example is built almost entirely on lands claimed by different tribes, and thus two-thirds of the city is empty.[62]

Bedouin lands' claims don't take into account central planning issues. When agreement made, the Bedouin receive 20%–62% of the land they claimed. These lands are speckled with those registered in the Land Registry as belonging to other Bedouin. As a result, state encounters a serious problem developing Negev. Due to this issue, it is not possible to develop the eastern part of the Be'er Sheva metropolitan.[63]

According to government sources, another hindrance in the arrangement attempts is the absence of deadline for the negotiations.[12] According to Prof. Sofer: "Bedouin always say 'no' to attempts to reach a compromise with them about the lands that they claim, because they know that every 'no' only strengthens them. One of the main problems in this program is lack of a final date. The state should set a date by which it is willing to give increased compensation for those who erase the claim of ownership, and from there on – no more compromise and a confrontation is needed even if it will come at a high price."[12]

According to officials involved in negotiations, there is a lack of consistency in granting compensations. The Bedouin Administration manages negotiations with each tribe or family separately, soo the compensation size differs. Conciliatory families receive lower compensation, while the recalcitrant families' compensation is higher (a good example is the evacuation of the Bedouin Tarabin from the outskirts of Omer). The state also offers higher compensations to families with a leader that the government needs him by their side, or to families that claim land ownership in the areas of special importance to the state.[62] One of the reasons for the lack of uniformity is the crisis of the Bedouin community leadership. Currently there is no agreed Bedouin leadership to resolve the land issue, and the Bedouin refuse to place representatives on the ground, so there is no authority to represent all of the claimants.[62]

Another factor hindering the arrangement is tribal feud. According to one of the negotiators, attorney Itay Bar, Southern District Attorney for Civil Affairs, "Sometimes you can not place one Bedouin next to another because his son insulted him 20 years ago".[62]

According to Faisal el-Husael, the public representative from the Bedouin inside the Goldberg committee,[22] often the Bedouin are not willing to relocate to planned towns since they prefer rural settlements to semi-urban townships.[64]

Bedouins are nomadic in their nature, you can't settle where ever you want, and decide it's yours. It doesn't work that way.
If they can do it, why can't I?!
Please, use your common sense !!

In all fairness, the Bedouins have sedentarized since the founding of Israel. The problem of course is that they don't recognize the land registry system that has been in place long before the founding of Israel and prefer to enforce their own laws on the matter while, conversely, Israel - like the British and Ottomans before them - doesn't recognize Bedouin laws either.

Keep eating those stories, it really builds up your reputation in understanding the middle east....

Indeed, things aren't as simple as they seem. I also find it funny that someone criticized Israeli Bedouins for spying on Egypt back in the day, as if Egypt was any better to its Bedouins (in fact it's much worse, and the Bedouins are more aggressive than the Israeli ones too. Some tribes are involved in Islamist terrorism in the Sinai and have been at that since the '90s, since you are Israeli you probably know more about this than me, but IIRC this even hit some Israeli Bedouins as well as some tribes on the Egyptian side of the border they traded with were involved in terror attacks in the mid 2000s, and as Israeli security forces cracked down on whoever was involved in them they ended up depriving these tribes on the Israeli side of their trade with the Egyptian ones).

[LehmanB]

Bedouines (mixture of Africans, Arabs from everywhere, and few Saudi core who dominate them) are extremely violent and I doubt Israel will have the currage to expel them as it should. (The land on this dispute is a territory they sprawl into in the last 15 years, and even that Israel will find hard to deal with)

[Buzz62]

Oh man.
Keep talking about things you don't know a thing about.. Bravo, keep rising the ignorance.

Ignorance?
Hmmm...

Some of those lands, at least from the point of areial photos, weren't settled twenty years ago. That's first.
Secondly, I want to see you guys, buidling houses on state lands, then tell me what the city would do to you. You can't build houses (in their case, tents and tin houses) on lands that you didn't buy. Moreover, you can't expect that the country will aknowledge every "village" that rises up illegally. For example, you come with your family decides that this land is good for you, settle down, than more people join you (members of the family, cousins and such) and you got youself a village that wasn't there before. They demend water and electricity infrastructure which is impossible to do when you have villages like that rise up everytime.

Welcome to the Philippines.
Where Squatting is rather common.
We have a very close friend here who comes from one of these make-shift villages over there.
Her entire family has lived there a long time.

Welcome to Mexico.
This happens to be a village of squatters.

In Mexico, squatters are known as paracaidistas (that is, "paratroopers", because they "drop" themselves mostly at unoccupied lands), and it is a common practice in large cities. Since the most valuable real property is located near the downtowns of the cities, the paracaidistas usually establish slums at unoccupied lands at the outskirts of the cities. Since Mexican laws establish that an individual may take legal possession of a property after five to twenty years of peaceful occupation, many paracaidistas establish themselves with the hope that the legal owner will not discover them and expel them before five years. Large extensions of many Mexican cities were established originally as squats (for example, Nezahualcoyotl, in Mexico City). Squatting has also been used with political purposes, with more of one political parties promising existing squatters to legalize their situation if they support their candidates in the elections; or sometimes with the purpose to serve as human obstacles for another party, occupying the space that was going to be used for constructing public buildings or parks.

Fact is, this sort of community is not uncommon. Especially in Asia, India and Africa. But it exists everywhere.
In many of these countries, the squatters rights to the land is protected by law...such as in Mexico and the Philippines.

So...you were saying something about "ignorance"?

The plan is to move them in to cities and villages which will have all of the above. Such as Ra'at (A bedouin city near Be'er Sheva).

That's the "plan" is it?
I remember other similar "plans" the Zionists had.
The results were the mass exodus of Palestinians from their own land.
This "plan's" execution is now a sticking point to peace in Israel.
Gee...that was a good "plan" wasn't it...

Israel won't be happy until they've "planned" all people these Russians and Poles don't happen to like.
African Jews...get out.
Palestinians and other assorted indigenous peoples...Get out.
Christians...Get out.

And that people...is the "plan".

[Regulatory Capture 1]

The level in incoherent, made up on the fly, bovine manure is nauseating. Waton & co are the masters of justifying the unjustifiable. Land registry? Really? Really? When will the faeces infested book of excuses stop? Between Holland, Belgium, France, Portugal, England and Spain, we collectively have over 2000 years of colonial experience between us. We've been there, done it, got the T-shirt, written the book, registered the copyright and patented the template on how to dispossess, colonise and justify the expropriation of land and resources of other people. So you see pro-Israeli's, your justifications are not even original. The book of excuses has already been written before. We Brits even invented the concentration camp, to put the Boers back into their place.

The land registry angle is as old as it f**king gets. From 1502 we started the slave trade, the conquest of foreign lands whilst dispossessing the natives and do you know what one of our excuses was? They have no official system of land registry, so therefore we can claim it. Even if they did, it was well known we would not have recognised it even if they had one of their own. So as a minority in 1948, in areas you did not even officially control, these Bedouins have resided on those lands for over a millennia. Was there even a campaign by the apartheid regime of Israel to encourage the Bedouins to register their land rights? Nomads come and go, that is their lifestyle. I own several houses, because I don't reside in them full time, does my right to ownership diminish? Seriously pro-Israeli's, even by the level of some of your depraved defences of this apartheid state, you guys are outdoing yourselves. SHAME ON YOU!

[Buzz62]

welcome to the fray Reg...

Warning...it does get weirder at times...

[wat0n]

The level in incoherent, made up on the fly, bovine manure is nauseating. Waton & co are the masters of justifying the unjustifiable. Land registry? Really? Really? When will the faeces infested book of excuses stop? Between Holland, Belgium, France, Portugal, England and Spain, we collectively have over 2000 years of colonial experience between us. We've been there, done it, got the T-shirt, written the book, registered the copyright and patented the template on how to dispossess, colonise and justify the expropriation of land and resources of other people. So you see pro-Israeli's, your justifications are not even original. The book of excuses has already been written before. We Brits even invented the concentration camp, to put the Boers back into their place.

Oh, a silly conspiracy theorist arrived.

It's funny that you mention former European colonies. Unlike you, I actually live in one and there is a similar situation in here, where indigenous peoples demand lands that they didn't register and which were registered by other people when land registries were set up in the 19th century. And there they are, still wanting the lands they consider theirs.

The land registry angle is as old as it f**king gets. From 1502 we started the slave trade, the conquest of foreign lands whilst dispossessing the natives and do you know what one of our excuses was? They have no official system of land registry, so therefore we can claim it. Even if they did, it was well known we would not have recognised it even if they had one of their own. So as a minority in 1948, in areas you did not even officially control, these Bedouins have resided on those lands for over a millennia.

Please exolain in great detail how this relates to Bedouin issue considering the land registry was set up by the Ottoman Empire and not Israel. Thanks!

Was there even a campaign by the apartheid regime of Israel to encourage the Bedouins to register their land rights?

Yes, there was a campaign in Israel to get Bedouins to register the land so both sides could get to an arrangement. I posted it above, but as we all know conspiracy theorists with an axe to grind don't usually have a good reading comprehension:

In the mid-1970s Israel let the Negev Bedouin register their land claims and issued special certificates that served as the basis for the "right of possession" later granted by the government. Following the signing of the Treaty of Peace with Egypt, it became necessary to move an airport from a Sinai peninsula to a locality inhabited by some five thousand Bedouin. The government, recognizing these land claim certificates, negotiated with the certificate holders and paid compensation to them. Most moved to Bedouin townships, built houses and established businesses.[33]

Arrangement attempts[edit]

In the 1970s Israel collected all the "claims of ownership" in the Negev, without permits and without proof, for the purpose of registering these claims. However, the Bedouin saw the state registry as a recognition for their claims. More than 3,000 ownership claims were filed for the land sized over 800,000 dunams, which includes nearly the whole area between Be'er Sheva – Arad – Dimona and other areas throughout the entire Negev, including those that belong to kibbutzim and cities.

In the first years of the arrangement, anyone demanding area of over 400 dunams had the opportunity to get 20% of the land from the Land Registry, and for the rest of the area they would receive financial compensation. Anyone who demanded less than 400 dunams, had received only monetary compensation. In addition, the state of Israel compensated the Bedouin for any building, tin shack, barn or even a tree that the Bedouin placed and the government removed. The compensation value was even higher than the property's value in the market. In 20% of the claims the state has reached a settlement with the Bedouin.[10]

At the same time, some Bedouin tried to claim the land ownership in the court, despite the May 1984 Supreme
Court precedent ruling of Justice Avraham Halima, stating that Bedouin are nomads by definition and thus cannot have any ownership of land.[35] In all 80 cases in which Bedouin claims arrived to court, the judges ruled in favor of the state, since there was no document proving Bedouin land ownership. According to recent data submitted to the Goldberg Commission by the Bedouin Administration in July 2008, 2840 claims remained, whose overall area is 571,186 dunams.[36]

In fact, even the British tried to the same:

In 1921, the government of the British Mandate issued an order for all the Negev residents to register their land. According to the Land Ordinance of 1921, any Bedouin who cultivated and improved a "mewat" (dead) land received a confirmation of ownership on that same land. Although the Bedouin were granted with a special extension of two-month to register their land, they have never done so, and the land remained unregistered.[23]

Mandate authorities also conducted a preliminary registration of land and since 1934 began to collect land taxes. Mandatory maps show the location of the Bedouin tribes, however, the maps never marked the boundaries of each tribe.

Nomads come and go, that is their lifestyle.

Indeed, and this is incompatible with any modern society.

I own several houses, because I don't reside in them full time, does my right to ownership diminish?

You have them registered as yours somewhere or else you wouldn't legally own them.

Seriously pro-Israeli's, even by the level of some of your depraved defences of this apartheid state, you guys are outdoing yourselves. SHAME ON YOU!

I have yet to see any States that accommodate with nomadism and let people settle wherever they want. Guess what, they don't: This causes problems wherever this happens and authorities react in a manner that is similar to what Israel has been doing.

Israel and the remaining Bedouins should indeed show some flexibility to solve this issue, but this is more complex than the incohorent ramblings of our local conspiracy theorists who have an axe to grind against a certain ethnic group that constitutes the majority of the Israeli population are willing or able to recognize.

[Regulatory Capture 1]

welcome to the fray Reg...

Warning...it does get weirder at times...

I'm a regular visitor to Israel, due to my other half being Jewish, so these revisionists with their truths, half-truths, outright lies and semantics, deliberately made to bog you down in minutia detail, to deflect from the real issue, cant pull the wool over my eyes. It has got to the point, some of their denials have become the equivalent of holocaust denial. The defenders of the faith, as I refer to the Jews come in 4 forms from my perspective.

1. Real Israeli Jews, those who actually lived in Israel pre-1948, some I have the pleasure to talk with about the reality and not the new glossed over narrative of life for the Palestinians. 2. Jews who have actually fought in wars for Israel. 3. Jews who were born, or reside in Israel post Yom Kippur war and the worst of the lot number 4, the ones I call PLASTIC Jews. The Jews who don't even live in Israel, or who have never or infrequently visit, yet claim to know the most and are the most rabid Zionist of the lot.

There is a saying, "when the last man who fought in the great wars dies, the start of the new great war begins" From my perspective, their are too many plastic Jews, who have no idea how to make peace, to the point they cant even give you a framework. It is simply more of the same. How many of these spineless hypocrites supported denying Palestinians statehood in the UN, while a champion of their own? Because of their legendary greed in pursuit for more and more land, they have destroyed themselves and they don't even know it.

The Zionists can never extricate themselves from the Palestinians, with anything approaching a viable state and like a cancer this intractable reality will consume them and this will become inevitable even to the Zionists. The opportunity for a two state solution has gone and fools like waton et al, have miscalculated the demographics war and they don't even know it. I have flipped 180 degrees on the settlement issue and now actively encourage the state of Israel and her settlement building supporters, to build more and more exclusively Jewish settlements(like this was never the reality ), everywhere they can and as quick as possible, just to hasten its demise. Most great powers or nations aren't defeated by outside forces, they are defeated from within, by themselves due to stupid policy. This one will be no different, to the point even some hardcore Zionists I know share the same view.

[wat0n]

The Zionists can never extricate themselves from the Palestinians, with anything approaching a viable state and like a cancer this intractable reality will consume them and this will become inevitable even to the Zionists. The opportunity for a two state solution has gone and fools like waton et al, have miscalculated the demographics war and they don't even know it. I have flipped 180 degrees on the settlement issue and now actively encourage the state of Israel and her settlement building supporters, to build more and more exclusively Jewish settlements(like this was never the reality ), everywhere they can and as quick as possible, just to hasten its demise. Most great powers or nations aren't defeated by outside forces, they are defeated from within, by themselves due to stupid policy. This one will be no different, to the point even some hardcore Zionists I know share the same view.

I don't support settling the West Bank, sorry but you clearly haven't read my position on the issue. I also wouldn't even vote for a spineless, oportunistic leader like Netanyahu, but this doesn't mean I agree with the ridiculous attacks against Israel one can read on these forums, including the incoherent conspiracy theories.

Just to state it clearly, I think Israel should unilaterally withdraw from settlements east of the West Bank barrier (ideally I'd get rid of them all, but this is pretty hard to do now), though the soldiers should remain there until a deal is signed to avoid repeating the mistakes in the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 - I am a fan of the proposal of the Blue White Future movement on what should be done now as it's spot on.

I don't think settlements are as critical as you make them look however, if shit really hit the fan I think Israel would uproot them all or leave them to their fate if it need be - some users here (Ombreageux in particular) compared Israel's settling of the West Bank to the French colonization of Algeria and think that settlers will end like them, I used to condemn them for saying this back in the day but actually I've been getting to think they may as well be right considering many Israelis don't want anything to do with the settlements and I doubt they'd be willing to lose their country for their sake and many settlers would prefer to stay in the land over staying in the State - I thought Israel should uproot them like it did in Gaza in 2005 because I doubt the Palestinians would be kind to them if Israel left the WB, but I've changed my position since 2011 or 2012 and now I think that those who were willing to stay and try their luck if Israel left the WB should be allowed to. Neither option is good, both are traumatic, but Israel won't self-destroy over the settlers and also most settlers won't need to face such a stark choice as the settlement blocs that concentrate most settlers are near the Green Line and will likely be swapped under a final deal (including those in east Jerusalem) - only those staying outside the settlement blocs (beyond the WB barrier) will, I think. My assessment seems to be in line with that of the Global Trends 2030 Report as well:

Many of our interlocutors saw a Palestine emerging from Arab-Israeli exhaustion and an unwillingness of Israelis and Palestinians to engage in endless conflict. Issues like ‘right of return’, demilitarization and Jerusalem will not be fully resolved by 2030, and there will be no complete end of conflict. The way forward toward a Palestinian state will be through a series of unofficial independent actions known as ‘coordinated unilateralism,’ incrementally leading to statehood. As Hamas moves away from Syria and Iran to the Sunni Arab fold, the potential for reconciliation between the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah and Hamas in Gaza would increase. Palestine’s borders will be roughly along the 1967 borders with adjustments or land swaps along the Green Line, but other issues will remain unresolved.

I think this is where things seem to be heading to as well.

Since I don't think settlements aren't as important as some people make them be, I also don't think a settlement freeze is necessary for the peace process to go on, just as it wasn't when Israel and Egypt signed their peace treaty in 1979 and Israel uprooted the settlements in the Sinai in 1982. They are a hindrance, but they are far from being a critical or the biggest one.

Now, back on topic, Netanyahu decided to bury the Prawer Plan due to the opposition by Bedouins and others. I'm not kidding when I say he's spineless, if he can't deal with the opposition to this, I doubt he'll be able to deal with opposition to a peace treaty with the PA. But it doesn't matter as it's obvious that Yesh Atid and Hatnuah will leave the coalition once a concrete offer is on the table and they might do it if talks fail, depending on whether Yesh Atid got the socio-economic and secularist reforms it wanted.

[Wrath_014]

Ignorance?
Hmmm...


Fact is, this sort of community is not uncommon. Especially in Asia, India and Africa. But it exists everywhere.
In many of these countries, the squatters rights to the land is protected by law...such as in Mexico and the Philippines.

So...you were saying something about "ignorance"?

See, what did you try to prove here? That some countries approve land take overs by their own citizens?
So what?

What is your point?

I said ignorance because you guys don't know the complete or even the slightest idea about the issue with bedouins. But that doesn't stop you from opinionated about things you don't know, hence ignorance.

That's the "plan" is it?
I remember other similar "plans" the Zionists had.
The results were the mass exodus of Palestinians from their own land.
This "plan's" execution is now a sticking point to peace in Israel.
Gee...that was a good "plan" wasn't it...

Yes it's a good plan. Even the Bedouins themselves say that there is a problem that must be solved.

"I remember other similar "plans" the Zionists had.
The results were the mass exodus of Palestinians from their own land.
This "plan's" execution is now a sticking point to peace in Israel."

It's an Israeli government plan, not Zionists. Did you forget that there are Muslim, Chirstian, Druze and other Knesset members in the Israeli Knesset?

Israel won't be happy until they've "planned" all people these Russians and Poles don't happen to like.
African Jews...get out.
Palestinians and other assorted indigenous peoples...Get out.
Christians...Get out.

And that people...is the "plan".

Pff...

The land registry angle is as old as it f**king gets. From 1502 we started the slave trade, the conquest of foreign lands whilst dispossessing the natives and do you know what one of our excuses was? They have no official system of land registry, so therefore we can claim it. Even if they did, it was well known we would not have recognised it even if they had one of their own. So as a minority in 1948, in areas you did not even officially control, these Bedouins have resided on those lands for over a millennia. Was there even a campaign by the apartheid regime of Israel to encourage the Bedouins to register their land rights? Nomads come and go, that is their lifestyle. I own several houses, because I don't reside in them full time, does my right to ownership diminish? Seriously pro-Israeli's, even by the level of some of your depraved defences of this apartheid state, you guys are outdoing yourselves. SHAME ON YOU!

Ha Ha..
1. There is a big difference between owning houses (with deeds of course) and to take over state lands.
2. They had plenty of opportunities to do so, but they didn't due to their own reasons.
3. We live in the 21 century, so pardon me, but nomadic take overs are long over (Modern societies).
4. You can't do what ever you want, ignore the law and when you got to face the music, go out and cry about the injustice.

The Zionists can never extricate themselves from the Palestinians, with anything approaching a viable state and like a cancer this intractable reality will consume them and this will become inevitable even to the Zionists. The opportunity for a two state solution has gone and fools like waton et al, have miscalculated the demographics war and they don't even know it. I have flipped 180 degrees on the settlement issue and now actively encourage the state of Israel and her settlement building supporters, to build more and more exclusively Jewish settlements(like this was never the reality ), everywhere they can and as quick as possible, just to hasten its demise. Most great powers or nations aren't defeated by outside forces, they are defeated from within, by themselves due to stupid policy. This one will be no different, to the point even some hardcore Zionists I know share the same view.

Shame on you for jumping in to conclusions before you get anything. I bet you don't fully grasp what you're talking about, but for an arrogant European who thinks he knows it all, I don't expect you to dig it.

Your're talking to a "plastic" Jew from Israel.

But wait, you've been to Israel? How does the Apartheid thing going on for you? Did you see the signs against the Arabs (No Arabs Allowed in? Or perhaps my favorite one, Arabs to the back of the bus)??

You'll people are, pretty much, acting the same. You try to smear Israel with all sorts of "terms", that in reality, are simply not there.

So, please, get down from the tree you climbed on. Don't patronize me or others.

[Hirdmann]

Snip

So, you wouldn't have a problem with someone suddenly deciding to build a small house in your back yard (where you actually have no right to live, as has been established by your own logic), relying on your electricity and water, without paying you as much as a dimeri?
Or is that somehow "like tolly diffrentz 'n stuffz"?

Christians...Get out.

Actually...no. There is no better, safer, place to be a Christian, than in Israel.
Christians in Israel have rights guaranteed and enforced through the courts. The fact that a few ultra-orthodox extremists have way too much time on their hands and decide to use it to harass Christians, proves absolutely jack shit.
In Israel, Christians aren't murdered, have their daughters kidnapped, raped, and forcibly converted to islam, etc.

[Buzz62]

See, what did you try to prove here? That some countries approve land take overs by their own citizens?
So what?

What is your point?

YOU SAID:

I want to see you guys, buidling houses on state lands, then tell me what the city would do to you.

And I showed you how that works and where.
So...how's that foot taste?

I said ignorance because you guys don't know the complete or even the slightest idea about the issue with bedouins. But that doesn't stop you from opinionated about things you don't know, hence ignorance.

Who the fuck are you to decide what we know or don't know?
Oh I'm sorry...that's right...your a Zionist...everyone knows Zionists are always right...

Yes it's a good plan. Even the Bedouins themselves say that there is a problem that must be solved.

"I remember other similar "plans" the Zionists had.
The results were the mass exodus of Palestinians from their own land.
This "plan's" execution is now a sticking point to peace in Israel."

It's an Israeli government plan, not Zionists. Did you forget that there are Muslim, Chirstian, Druze and other Knesset members in the Israeli Knesset?

Ya...15 non-jewish members...

Pff...

Words of wisdom...

3. We live in the 21 century, so pardon me, but nomadic take overs are long over (Modern societies).

Except...of course...when we talk about the way the Zionists colonized Palestine. Then it's perfectly OK to regurgitate the past...

4. You can't do what ever you want, ignore the law and when you got to face the music, go out and cry about the injustice.

Does this pertain to the many international laws that Israel has blatantly broken too?
We'll remember this when the Arabs come pouring over that pretty wall of Israel's and they begin screaming for help.

Shame on you for jumping in to conclusions before you get anything. I bet you don't fully grasp what you're talking about, but for an arrogant European who thinks he knows it all, I don't expect you to dig it.

Your're talking to a "plastic" Jew from Israel.

But wait, you've been to Israel? How does the Apartheid thing going on for you? Did you see the signs against the Arabs (No Arabs Allowed in? Or perhaps my favorite one, Arabs to the back of the bus)??

You'll people are, pretty much, acting the same. You try to smear Israel with all sorts of "terms", that in reality, are simply not there.

So, please, get down from the tree you climbed on. Don't patronize me or others.

Really? Well let's start with this...

The Israeli government passed at least 21 bills aimed at discriminating against the country's Arab citizens making the current Knesset as being the most racist Israeli parliament since the country's founding, according to a report released Sunday by civil rights groups.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/current-knesset-is-the-most-racist-in-israeli-history-1.266564

On Dec. 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law had been “hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major festival.” The law made missionaries liable to five years’ imprisonment for attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years’ imprisonment for any Jew who converted. The United Christian Council complained that the law could be “misused in restricting religious freedom in Israel.”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/rel-christians.html
and this Nazareth mayor certainly isn't racist...
[youtube]LepUlwONcCc[/youtube]
And finally...you wanna watch this 10 minute clip.
[youtube]KPzYExjz6Io[/youtube]

Not Arabs to the back of the bus...NO ARABS ON THE BUS!

Starting on Monday, certain buses running from the West Bank into central Israel will have separate lines for Jews and Arabs.

The Afikim bus company will begin operating Palestinian-only bus lines from the checkpoints to Gush Dan to prevent Palestinians from boarding buses with Jewish passengers. Palestinians are not allowed to enter settlements, and instead board buses from several bus stops on the Trans-Samaria highway.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869

This will never end.
In fact...the apartheid and blatant racism of the Zionists is growing.
Thus I say...Europe and North America, let's cut these people off of the gravy-train we've given them for so many decades.
SEE what they do to anyone who is not Jewish.
UNDERSTAND that Israel IS NOT your friend.
Let them stand on their own...and fall on their own.

[Hirdmann]

I would like to know if anyone said that there isn't a single racist in Israel, at all? Because the case our resident anti-semite seems to be making, is that someone made that claim, and it's wrong.
It is indeed wrong, but no one said that there weren't.

Now, kindly respond to my post of Dec 15, 16:30

[Buzz62]

I would like to know if anyone said that there isn't a single racist in Israel, at all? Because the case our resident anti-semite seems to be making, is that someone made that claim, and it's wrong.
It is indeed wrong, but no one said that there weren't.

Now, kindly respond to my post of Dec 15, 16:30

Are you calling me names?
Are you saying I hate Jews?
Well how...thin of you.
But I guess when that's all ya got...

Your post?
You mean this?

So, you wouldn't have a problem with someone suddenly deciding to build a small house in your back yard (where you actually have no right to live, as has been established by your own logic), relying on your electricity and water, without paying you as much as a dimeri?
Or is that somehow "like tolly diffrentz 'n stuffz"?

Dude...we're taking about GOVERNMENT LAND!
Perhaps you missed that bit...

Admin note: If you're going to report things, Buzz, please don't make the mod/admin job harder by then responding to the infraction. In this case I will be allowing Hirdmann's Rule 2 violation to stand since you have responded vigorously to it yourself. Thank you.