[wat0n]

I think the Palestinians can smell the blood in the air as much as anyone. If they play the long-game they can win and I think a lot of them are starting to realize this.

It depends of what you mean by the "long-game" and "winning", and how would this happen.

I actually agree with you up to an extent, but I suspect that it's for different reasons altogether. And unlike with Gaza, Israel can actually stop that crap on its tracks.

[Dagoth Ur]

Oh sure they can, they have the power within hand's reach to liquidate the entire Palestinian Problem entirely. A final Palestinian Solution however would most likely end up destroying Israel (and a whole lot else) in the process.

Israel needs Palestinian allies if is ever going to end this conflict for good. But good luck with that.

[wat0n]

Oh sure they can, they have the power within hand's reach to liquidate the entire Palestinian Problem entirely. A final Palestinian Solution however would most likely end up destroying Israel (and a whole lot else) in the process.

Israel needs Palestinian allies if is ever going to end this conflict for good. But good luck with that.

No, I didn't mean it in that way actually.

But before telling you what I think Israel can do, you could explain to me why do you think the Palestinians get to win the long-game. Could it have to do with demographics, maybe?

[anarchist23]

Netanyahu is sucking up to the Israeli fundamentalists that control the racist country. Being tough on the Palestinians. Netanyahu has the blood of children on his hands.

[Donna]

No, I didn't mean it in that way actually.

But before telling you what I think Israel can do, you could explain to me why do you think the Palestinians get to win the long-game. Could it have to do with demographics, maybe?

I would say it's a combination of demographics and the dialectical epistemology of the West that may potentially reject certain edifices of Israeli policy that Israel relies on as an ethnocentric polity. I do not doubt that the practical objective of Hamas is to influence how Israel is perceived internationally and it does this by reflecting Israel's greatest strength (i.e., military prowess) as a serious moral weakness. On the other hand, Israel relies on a false dilemma strategy that works well with Western governments that do not tolerate stateless actors (and are blind to power imbalances as such), but this does not work in the discourses of civil society.

One has to wonder if Israel is aware of the fact that everyone lives in a digital aquarium these days (if laypersons can figure it out, so can Israeli security officials) and that behind the scenes Israel may actually be desperate to permanently neutralize Hamas.

[OllytheBrit]

So, in a nutshell, Israel should simply sit idle while rockets fired from the vicinity of schools and hospitals kill and maim its population.

Steady on there or some superficial liberal will accuse you of being a Zionist sympathiser/apologist.

[Wrath_014]

Why bother replying to you?

You still didn't prove any claim of yours, even though I showed you that there are problems with the numbers.



The thing is, people judge this conflict with emotinal tools where this is probably the worst way to judge anything.
Instead of that, you can put yourself, for example, in the IDF position, when you have a force that intentionally sacrifice its people just to make you look bad.

Yes, you could say that the IDF can prevent those killings (The IDF did in fact do what it can do to prevent it), but in the sake of what?
Are you guys suggesting that Israeli lives are inferior than others?

The question is, when you have a rapid rocket fire, tunnel infiltration and other terror acts, what would you do???


Also, the "expert" who said that those rockets are "upgraded" fire crackers, you sir are an ignorant.

Really? Standard military Russian Grad is a firecracker?! Standard Syrian M302 rockets are firecrackers?
Even the self produced rockets by Hamas and other terrorists factions, including the moratar shelling that I didn't even discuss, is not a fire cracker.

I guess those brave experts wouldn't stay in the open when one of these firecrackers explode...

Such a lame claim...Really

[OllytheBrit]

Why bother replying to you?

You still didn't prove any claim of yours, even though I showed you that there are problems with the numbers.



The thing is, people judge this conflict with emotinal tools where this is probably the worst way to judge anything.
Instead of that, you can put yourself, for example, in the IDF position, when you have a force that intentionally sacrifice its people just to make you look bad.

Yes, you could say that the IDF can prevent those killings (The IDF did in fact do what it can do to prevent it), but in the sake of what?
Are you guys suggesting that Israeli lives are inferior than others?

The question is, when you have a rapid rocket fire, tunnel infiltration and other terror acts, what would you do???


Also, the "expert" who said that those rockets are "upgraded" fire crackers, you sir are an ignorant.

Really? Standard military Russian Grad is a firecracker?! Standard Syrian M302 rockets are firecrackers?
Even the self produced rockets by Hamas and other terrorists factions, including the moratar shelling that I didn't even discuss, is not a fire cracker.

I guess those brave experts wouldn't stay in the open when one of these firecrackers explode...

Such a lame claim...Really

I've asked that very same to question of the gobby flakes and I've never had an answer yet! At least, not an intelligent one! 'There are none so blind as those who will not see.'?

[Heisenberg]

1. Something must be done!
2. This is something!
3. Therefore, we must do it.

I, for one, have said several times what Israel should do, and have been met with comically shrill answers - most of which fail to address the point entirely. Israel already has an effective defensive system, which is what is actually defending Israeli civilians. There isn't really anything else they "need" to do in order to keep their population safe. The mass bombardment campaigns simply harm Israel's international image, cause massive civilian casualties, and do very little extra to "defend" Israel. You have to ask why it is that Israel "needs" to respond in exactly the way Hamas wants it to every time. It's very similar to the American and British attack on Afghanistan - it was exactly the intended aim of the 9/11 attack. When you're doing precisely what your enemy wants, how can you claim to be "winning"?

[OllytheBrit]

1. Something must be done!
2. This is something!
3. Therefore, we must do it.

I, for one, have said several times what Israel should do. It has an effective defensive system, which is what is actually defending Israeli civilians. There isn't really anything else they "need" to do in order to keep their population safe. The mass bombardment campaigns simply harm Israel's international image, cause massive civilian casualties, and do very little extra to "defend" Israel. You have to ask why it is that Israel "needs" to respond in exactly the way Hamas wants it to every time.

And how long should they continue to depend upon it, and the elderly, infirm (those who have MS or similar?), young, et al have to run for their lives every time the sirens sound (which can be every hour or so?), not only because they could be killed by falling shrapnel, but also by HE when the rockets do get through the Iron Dome - it isn't infallible - a year? 10 years? Forever? I'm afraid that your argument is seriously flawed, Heisy!

[anarchist23]

As I have said less than two dozen Israelis have been killed by Hamas rocket fire in the last decade. Approx two per year, and that is before the dome.

[OllytheBrit]

As I have said less than two dozen Israelis have been killed by Hamas rocket fire in the last decade. Approx two per year, and that is before the dome.

And as I've said, you'd be happier if the casualty figures matched would you? Your argument is meaningless and, if you'll pardon me for saying so, specious.

[anarchist23]

So you think that the disproportionate death rates are meaningless and unimportant? No the Palestinians are being slaughtered. This is a fact ............end of story.

[OllytheBrit]

So you think that the disproportionate death rates are meaningless and unimportant? No the Palestinians are being slaughtered. End of story.

And Hamas is to blame. In fact the more Palestinians are slaughtered, the more it suits Hamas' cause. They're utterly ruthless, and believe me when I say that I feel for the Palestinians as much as you do.

[anarchist23]

^
As a father and grandfather of 12, I feel for the parents who have lost children, ever death of a child is an obscenity, the death of any child Israeli or Palestinian....To say I would like to see more Israeli children dead is an insult.

[Heisenberg]

And how long should they continue to depend upon it, and the elderly, infirm (those who have MS or similar?), young, et al have to run for their lives every time the sirens sound (which can be every hour or so?), not only because they could be killed by falling shrapnel, but also by HE when the rockets do get through the Iron Dome - it isn't infallible - a year? 10 years? Forever? I'm afraid that your argument is seriously flawed, Heisy!

Again, this doesn't explain how Israel's bombing and ground campaign achieves the aim of defending Israeli civilians. It clearly hasn't stopped Hamas from firing rockets - otherwise the various "ceasefires" wouldn't have failed time and time and time again. The only way for that to happen would be to completely flatten the Gaza strip and annihilate Hamas, which Israel hasn't done and doesn't intend to do. This weird half-measure achieves nothing but large scale destruction.

So, rather than rolling your eyes, explain why Israel's response is the right one. None of this "it is something, therefore it should be done". Don't give me "what would YOU do?", because I've explained what I would do - something you've yet to address properly. Explain why this action is the right one, and how it achieves its declared aim.

[OllytheBrit]

As a father and grandfather of 12, I feel for the parents who have lost children, ever death of a child is an obscenity, the death of any child Israeli or Palestinian....To say I would like to see more Israeli children dead is an insult.

Hey, tell it to Hamas not me! If they stop with the rockets Israel will stop with the retaliation don't you think?

[anarchist23]

As with the Zionists, you are blaming the victim for it's plight. The Palestinians are the victims of bombardment of a ruthless war machine. There is no justification militarily for bombing a "refugee camp."

[OllytheBrit]

Again, this doesn't explain how Israel's bombing and ground campaign achieves the aim of defending Israeli civilians. It clearly hasn't stopped Hamas from firing rockets - otherwise the various "ceasefires" wouldn't have failed time and time and time again. The only way for that to happen would be to completely flatten the Gaza strip and annihilate Hamas, which Israel hasn't done and doesn't intend to do. This weird half-measure achieves nothing but large scale destruction.

You can't compare Hamas to western fighting forces; Hamas is so consumed with hatred of Israel they'll continue to launch rockets into it until the last man standing, irrespective of the consequences for the poor bloody Gazans.

So, rather than rolling your eyes, explain why Israel's response is the right one. None of this "it is something, therefore it should be done". Don't give me "what would YOU do?", because I've explained what I would do - something you've yet to address properly. Explain why this action is the right one, and how it achieves its declared aim.

Simply because I don't know what else Israel can do? Sorry but I can't remember what you said you would do. If you'll remind me please, I'll address it.

[OllytheBrit]

As with the Zionists, you are blaming the victim for it's plight. The Palestinians are the victims of bombardment of a ruthless war machine. There is no justification militarily for bombing a "refugee camp."

Okay, so what's your answer then?