[Tonic]

Maxim Litvinov

I think the question on everybody's lips is whether the Holocaust was a retroactive response by G-d to the Shas party.

Maxim is on something here. Shas "spiritual leader" said exactly that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef



Theodicy
Some of Rabbi Yosef's theodicy-related pronouncements have also been controversial. In 2000 he described the Holocaust as God's retribution against the reincarnated soul of Jewish sinners: "the 6 million Holocaust victims were reincarnations of the souls of sinners, people who transgressed and did all sorts of things that should not be done. They had been reincarnated in order to atone." In response to criticism, Shas chairman Eli Yishai commented that criticism of the rabbi was unjustified: "Rabbi Ovadia weeps for every Jew who is killed ... but nobody, not even a saint, has not sinned. Everyone dies in a state of sin."[23]

Following Hurricane Katrina in 2005 he blamed the tragedy on the Godlessness of New Orleans, on US support for the Gaza disengagement and on a general lack of Torah study in the area.

"There was a tsunami and there are terrible natural disasters, because there isn’t enough Torah study...black people reside there [New Orleans]. Blacks will study the Torah? [God said] let’s bring a tsunami and drown them...Hundreds of thousands remained homeless. Tens of thousands have been killed. All of this because they have no God... Bush was behind the [expulsion of] Gush Katif, he encouraged Sharon to expel Gush Katif... we had 15,000 people expelled here [in Israel], and there [in America] 150,000 [were expelled]. It was God’s retribution... God does not short-change anyone."[24][25]

[Maxim Litvinov]

These guys are real fruitcakes!

[Tonic]

Maas

One of the reasons why there isn't peace in that region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovadia_Yosef

Position on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Despite his controversial public comments, Rabbi Yosef has long been a distinguished rabbinical authority advocating peace negotiations, and has done so since the late 1980s. His main justification is the Halakhic ruling of Pikuach Nefesh ("saving lives"), in which all the Jewish commandments (excluding adultery, idolatry, and murder) are put on hold if a life is put in danger. Yosef, using an argument first articulated by the late American rabbinical leader Joseph Soloveitchik, claims that the Arab-Israeli conflict endangers Jewish lives, thereby meeting the above criteria and overruling the priority of commandments pertaining to settling the land of Israel.[8] Therefore, Israel is permitted, even obligated if saving lives is a definitive outcome, to both make serious efforts to reach a peace settlement as well as make arrangements to properly protect its citizens.[9][10] Rabbi Yosef first applied the pikuach nefesh argument to Israel's conflicts with its neighbors in 1979, when he ruled that it granted Israel authority to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt (though some claimed the ruling was also motivated by Rabbi Yosef's desire to oppose his Ashkenazi colleague, Rabbi Shlomo Goren).[11]

Using this predecence, Rabbi Yosef supported the Oslo Accords in the 1990s and instructed Shas to join Yitzhak Rabin's government coalition, and later Ehud Barak's, as well. However, as Oslo stalled and relations between Israelis and Palestinians began to deteriorate, and particularly following the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada, Yosef reversed himself and the party pulled "rightward", supporting the Likud.

In 2005, Rabbi Yosef repeatedly condemned the Gaza Disengagement. He argued that he was opposed to any unilateral action that occurred outside the framework of a peace agreement. Rabbi Yosef again cited the principle of pikuach nefesh, saying that empowering the Palestinians without a commitment to end terror would result in threatening Jewish lives, particularly in areas near Gaza in range of Qassam rocket attacks.[12] In contrast to some of his rabbinical colleagues, such as Rabbi Yosef Shalom Eliashiv, Yosef refused to entertain the idea of holding a referendum on the disengagement, and instructed his MKs to vote against the plan when it came up in the Knesset.

Yosef still maintains that pikuach nefesh applies to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and supports negotiations with the Palestinians, but no longer appears totally convinced that diplomacy with the present leadership can necessarily end the violence. Some media analysts have suggested that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert may be able to convince the rabbi to sign on to further unilateral actions by the government if concerted efforts toward negotiation fail.[13]

[Tailz]

Tonic quoted from Wiki:

Some of Rabbi Yosef's theodicy-related pronouncements have also been controversial. In 2000 he described the Holocaust as God's retribution against the reincarnated soul of Jewish sinners: "the 6 million Holocaust victims were reincarnations of the souls of sinners, people who transgressed and did all sorts of things that should not be done. They had been reincarnated in order to atone." In response to criticism, Shas chairman Eli Yishai commented that criticism of the rabbi was unjustified: "Rabbi Ovadia weeps for every Jew who is killed ... but nobody, not even a saint, has not sinned. Everyone dies in a state of sin."

So does that mean that the Nazi's are absolved of responsibility of the crime, since they were just doing gods work for him?

Following Hurricane Katrina in 2005 he blamed the tragedy on the Godlessness of New Orleans, on US support for the Gaza disengagement and on a general lack of Torah study in the area.

"There was a tsunami and there are terrible natural disasters, because there isn’t enough Torah study...black people reside there [New Orleans]. Blacks will study the Torah? [God said] let’s bring a tsunami and drown them...Hundreds of thousands remained homeless. Tens of thousands have been killed. All of this because they have no God... Bush was behind the [expulsion of] Gush Katif, he encouraged Sharon to expel Gush Katif... we had 15,000 people expelled here [in Israel], and there [in America] 150,000 [were expelled]. It was God’s retribution... God does not short-change anyone."[24][25]

Didn't someone from Osama & Co claim that the flooding of New Orleans was punishment from allah for waging war on Muslims?? So now it is punishment for blacks, specifically because they don't study the torah?

Maxim Litvinov wrote:

These guys are real fruitcakes!

What is scary is that people vote for these guys!!

Tonic quoted from Wiki:

Position on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Despite his controversial public comments, Rabbi Yosef has long been a distinguished rabbinical authority advocating peace negotiations, and has done so since the late 1980s. His main justification is the Halakhic ruling of Pikuach Nefesh ("saving lives"), in which all the Jewish commandments (excluding adultery, idolatry, and murder) are put on hold if a life is put in danger. Yosef, using an argument first articulated by the late American rabbinical leader Joseph Soloveitchik, claims that the Arab-Israeli conflict endangers Jewish lives, thereby meeting the above criteria and overruling the priority of commandments pertaining to settling the land of Israel.[8] Therefore, Israel is permitted, even obligated if saving lives is a definitive outcome, to both make serious efforts to reach a peace settlement as well as make arrangements to properly protect its citizens.[9][10] Rabbi Yosef first applied the pikuach nefesh argument to Israel's conflicts with its neighbors in 1979, when he ruled that it granted Israel authority to return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt (though some claimed the ruling was also motivated by Rabbi Yosef's desire to oppose his Ashkenazi colleague, Rabbi Shlomo Goren).[11]

Ooohh, so he is concerned not because the conflict endangers lives, but because it endangers Jewish lives. Oh how thoughtful of him.

So if the conflict just endangered say, the Irish, who gives a fuck? But if its the Jewish, hey now, hold on a moment, stop fighting people, your endangering Jewish lives.

[QatzelOk]

the way to stop the tremors was for parliament to reverse its trend of liberalising laws concerning homosexuals.

Donald, I know you love your gay pride parades, but just think of all those innocent Israeli children trapped in the rubble of the resulting earthquakes. It seems so selfish for anyone to participate in this kind of platectonic vandalism.

[Potemkin]

These guys are real fruitcakes!

Actually, no they're not. They are simply taking their religious beliefs seriously. And by the same token, they cannot be categorised as either right-wing or left-wing either. These categories date back only as far as the French Revolution, whereas Shas derive their beliefs directly from attitudes and texts formulated about three millennia ago. You have to imagine a group of Israelites of the time of the Neo-Babylonian Empire inventing a time machine and travelling forwards into the future. That is Shas. They are simply not part of modern politics, or indeed part of the modern world. This is what has allowed them to avoid becoming either hypocritical or inconsistent in their religious beliefs. They simply make no attempt to reconcile those beliefs with the modern world; this is the only way for a religious person to avoid hypocrisy or inconsistency. There is something admirable about such single-minded devotion and purity of faith. Creepy, but admirable.

[Tonic]

Potemkin is the non anti-semitic person I'v ever seen.

[War Angel]

whereas Shas derive their beliefs directly from attitudes and texts formulated about three millennia ago. You have to imagine a group of Israelites of the time of the Neo-Babylonian Empire inventing a time machine and travelling forwards into the future. That is Shas.

That is inaccurate. Shas is not the embodiment of ancient Jewish thought or tradition - they are ultra-orthodox Jews, or Haredi, which in Jewish terms, is very new. Their religion is, in my view, a perversion of the noble old Jewish ideals. You are correct, though, that they do not care for left, right, or any other political thought. Shas is a sectoral party, and its only purpose is to further the interests of the Haredi population. That includes, but is not limited to ; exempting them from national service, giving them money and funding, reduced taxes and so on and so forth.

That being said, they must remain in the headlines, and their members aren't known for their overwhelming wisdom or tact. They are prone for such moronic statements.

[Potemkin]

That is inaccurate. Shas is not the embodiment of ancient Jewish thought or tradition - they are ultra-orthodox Jews, or Haredi, which in Jewish terms, is very new. Their religion is, in my view, a perversion of the noble old Jewish ideals.

In the sense that they are a reaction against modernity, then you are right. Reaction, by definition, is itself new, it is (ironically) itself modern. However, their religion is a 'perversion' of the ancient Jewish ideals only in the sense that the context of those ideals has changed. What was authentic three thousand years ago can become a perversion now, simply because of the different historical context in which it finds itself. The ideals of Shas were authentic in 1000 BC; now, those same ideals are a 'perversion', a 'fraud', because of their changed context and their refusal to integrate their ideals into that changed context. The ancient Israelites were engaged with their time in a way that Shas refuses to be.

You are correct, though, that they do not care for left, right, or any other political thought. Shas is a sectoral party, and its only purpose is to further the interests of the Haredi population. That includes, but is not limited to ; exempting them from national service, giving them money and funding, reduced taxes and so on and so forth.

Granted; Shas serves the very material interests of their support base, and in this sense are no different from any other political party. However, they certainly regard themselves as embodying the values of traditional Judaism.

That being said, they must remain in the headlines, and their members aren't known for their overwhelming wisdom or tact. They are prone for such moronic statements.

I would dispute that these are 'moronic' statements. These statements are based on a worldview which is contrary to a modern worldview - they are based on a belief that the natural order of things is intimately linked with human moral behaviour, via the 'will of G-d'. This is a pre-scientific, pre-modern view of the natural order. It strikes us as absurd and 'moronic' merely because it cannot be fitted into a rational view of the natural order in which nature is alienated from human moral values. What does nature care whether people commit sodomy or not? According to Shas, G-d cares, and therefore nature itself reacts to human moral behaviour.

[danholo]

People by the likes of Ovadia Yosef are maintaining old Jewish tradition Iraqi style, be they compatible with modernity or not.

According to Shas, G-d cares, and therefore nature itself reacts to human moral behaviour.

Because nature is G-d's to control!

(btw, wtf are you using a dash in g-d?)

[Potemkin]

Because nature is G-d's to control!

Precisely. Most Jews pretend to believe that, but actually don't. Only Shas and the other ultra-Orthodox 'extremists' actually believe it.

(btw, wtf are you using a dash in g-d?)

Because of the tremendous respect I have for the ideals of Shas.

[hadzo]

Ooohh, so he is concerned not because the conflict endangers lives, but because it endangers Jewish lives. Oh how thoughtful of him.

So if the conflict just endangered say, the Irish, who gives a fuck? But if its the Jewish, hey now, hold on a moment, stop fighting people, your endangering Jewish lives.

I cold not agree more with the above. Great point!

People need to realize that every, and I mean every country in this world is backed by some form of religious act or scribe. Although: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq … have leaders with religious agendas that is not to excuse Israel from not being the same way. This post supports that. This guy after all does have influence on political parties in Israel.

One thing for sure, is Israel making a mistake with its regards of other lives in the area and treats them as insignificant. I know they don’t say it out loud but if you look deeper there are not many different conclusions one can come up with. For example, in much news I have noticed thing like “2 Israelis killed by suicide attack” then down the paragraph “Israel retaliates with an air strike targeting insurgents” … few days later you see 25-50 Palestinians dead!

Ok I get the point, they are after all protecting Jewish lives but at what cost; 25-50 innocent Palestinian lives?

PS who ever is thinking of replying; just ask your self, if Israel is so sensitive for their own that they are willing to bomb the shit out of a town or neighbor-hood and kill 25-50 innocent people in process, then what do you suppose the families of those 25-50 feel like?

Oh and don’t give me that crap, “well if they did not support terrorist” – you and who ever thinks that is a fool to think that everyone there supports terrorist activities. The truth is that most of the people are caught up in middle of the action – and Israel is showing no regard for it.

US have attacked Iraq (yes I said attacked, because that’s what they did). One of the main reasons is to stop the spread of “Terror or terrorist organizations”. Well with that example above Israel just created some more suicide bomber or what ever other form they may choose, in their mind, to retaliate with.

One thing for sure is that I don’t support any of this. I’m just simply saying that Israel, although treys very hard to appear so innocent and none wrong doing, really isn’t so. So that can’t be possibly helping the current situation down there.

… Oh and its time for religion to be completely out of politics in every country. It has done nothing more that hurt and destroyed humanity.

[Tonic]

hadzo, he can't love the life of his enemies more that they love it themselves, can he?

May 24, 2004, 8:46 a.m.
Dealing in Death
The West is weak because it respects life? Too bad.

By Steven Stalinsky



Sheikh Ikremeh Sabri, the highest-ranking cleric in the Palestinian Authority preached in al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem: "They think they scare people. We tell them: In as much as you love life, the Muslims love death and martyrdom." It is not his Islamic theology that is abhorrent, it is his culture. His culture sees death as standing as the appetizer of a lifetime ending before it really begins. His "they" who are the rest of us accept death as a dessert after a lifetime.

In his article 'Hizbullah's Gift to Palestine'in mid-2000, Al-Tamimi draws upon the early Islamic ethos of martyrdom and refers to its religious roots, explaining why the Palestinians will be victorious like Hizbullah, Hamas, and the Islamic Jihad. He refers to the early Islamic traditions regarding the Battle of Al-Qadisiya (637), in which the Muslim commander Khaled Ibn Al-Walid faced the vastly greater Persian army commanded by Persian leader Kisra (Khusro). Khaled Ibn Al-Walid sent the Persian commander a letter on behalf of his leader, the First Caliph Abu Bakr telling him, "I have come to you with a people who love death as much as you love life." This message is one of the main tenets of the Islamist terrorist organizations, and is used frequently on various fronts of Jihad. [9]

"Like the Lebanese, the Palestinians were prepared to continue the struggle despite the clear imbalance of power. Like Hizbullah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad had the ability to recruit fighters whose love for death in the cause of regaining their people's rights exceeded the Israelis' love for a life of security, safety and comfort..." [10]



Another chapter from early Islamic history — serving as a lesson for today's Muslims at war against the West — is the concept of the love of death. This originated at the Battle of Qadisiyya in the year 636, when the commander of the Muslim forces, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, sent an emissary with a message from Caliph Abu Bakr to the Persian commander, Khosru. The message stated: "You [Khosru and his people] should convert to Islam, and then you will be safe, for if you don't, you should know that I have come to you with an army of men that love death, as you love life." This account is recited in today's Muslim sermons, newspapers, and textbooks.

In his speech of March 19, 2004, President Bush referred to this concept: "On a tape claiming responsibility for the atrocities in Madrid, a man is heard to say, 'We choose death, while you choose life.'... It is a mindset that rejoices in suicide, incites murder, and celebrates every death we mourn. And we who stand on the other side of the line must be equally clear and certain of our convictions. We do love life.... We believe in the values that uphold the dignity of life, tolerance, and freedom, and the right of conscience. And we know that this way of life is worth defending. There is no neutral ground — no neutral ground — in the fight between civilization and terror, because there is no neutral ground between good and evil, freedom and slavery, and life and death."

Leading Muslim clerics often refer to the love of death. Chief Palestinian Authority cleric Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri stated, "We tell them, in as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom." Saudi Sheikh Abd Al-Muhsin Al-Qassem in Al-Madina added: "The Jews preached permissiveness and corruption, as they hid behind false slogans like freedom and equality, humanism and brotherhood... They are cowards in battle... they flee from death and fear fighting... They love life."

Former head of the Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr was asked the following question in an online chat room on March 22, 2004: "What, according to the Koran, are the Jews' main characteristics and qualities?" He explained one of their worst traits: "Cowardice and love for this worldly life are undisputable traits [of the Jews]." Hezbollah's Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: "We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death."

Abdallah Al-Naggar, a religious columnist for the Egyptian government daily Al-Gumhuriya, has written about the differences between a "Muslim believer's" approach to death and that of his non-Muslim enemies: "The believers in Allah rightly do not dread their enemies and do not fear [waging a] jihad, because they see jihad as a profitable bargain, selling their lives to Allah [to get paradise in return]. Their enemies protect their [own] lives, as criminals do. [Allah] has already said about them: 'You will find that they are the people who protect their [own] life more than anyone else.'... The believers do not fear the enemy [during] the struggle and do not protect their lives. Allah has promised them one of two good things: [either] victory or martyrdom.... Yet their enemies protect [their] lives like a miser protects his money. They do not give [their lives] easily; they do not enter into battles seeking martyrdom; they do not act in order [to attain] martyrdom. This is the secret of the believers' victory over their enemies — though the believers are few and the polytheists many, with advanced weaponry and equipment."

Liberal Egyptian playwright Ali Salem mocked articles such as those by Al-Naggar in the Arab media. In a satiric column published in the London daily Al-Hayat, Salem sarcastically suggested opening a kindergarten to teach terrorist values: "You will easily notice that they love life, and that is the weak point that we will exploit. We, in contrast, love death and protect it. Do not believe that Allah created life for us to live, build, and enjoy. [No,] Allah created us to test our ability to rebel against life, to despise it, and to get rid of it at the earliest opportunity. Each and every one of you must seek out your first chance to die — but you must not die for free...You must know, dear children, that our martyrs gain entry to Paradise, while their dead are [sentenced] to the fires of Hell. These idiots do not believe in Paradise, in the fires of Hell, or in the Day of Judgment." Tunisian intellectual Al-Afif Al-Akhdar asked in an article for the liberal Arabic-language website www.elaph.com: "Why do expressions of tolerance, moderation, rationalism, compromise, and negotiation horrify us [Muslims], but [when we hear] fervent cries for vengeance, we all dance the war dance?... Why do other people love life, while we love death and violence, slaughter and suicide, and [even] call it heroism and martyrdom?"

As the war on terror continues, the voices coming from the Arab and Muslim world celebrating death over life have been heard more often than those criticizing this philosophy. An editorial in the Lebanese Daily Star on May 13, 2004, warned of what might happen if this issue is not addressed: "The region's kings, princes, and presidents need to learn a valuable lesson from this abhorrent incident: that fractured societies produce real-life theaters of shame like the Berg murder in a systemic manner, and that similar fractures are infecting their own societies. If the Berg beheading does not catapult the region's leaders from the world of lethargy to the world of vigorous action to establish law and order in their own societies — and beginning with themselves — then they will be considerably weakened.... What more is needed to galvanize Arab leaders into action? Today, a man named Berg was put to the sword; tomorrow, it could be the Arab nation torn asunder by the same savagery."


http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/s ... 240846.asp
— Steven Stalinsky is executive director of The Middle East Media Research Institute.

[QatzelOk]

In a satiric column published in the London daily Al-Hayat, Salem sarcastically suggested opening a kindergarten to teach terrorist values:

Just show them cartoons every day with violent themes and good-guy vs bad-guy storylines. They will end up brainwashed.

the First Caliph Abu Bakr telling him, "I have come to you with a people who love death as much as you love life."

It's amazing how much the West is purported to "love life" in the article. And yet the West has killed so many millions of these lives it supposedly loves. Or is it merely Westerners who love their own lifestyles that we should be talking about, versus those "others" who stand in our way?

[hadzo]

he can't love the life of his enemies more that they love it themselves, can he?

How is he any different then? - And then so if he is no different what makes him better then? -Then if he is not better then what makes them bad?

The West is weak because it respects life?

How exactly - By dropping endless bombs over cities with no concern of how many innocent people are killed?

In as much as you love life, the Muslims love death and martyrdom."

Death = martyrdom – its actually a form of death in which is imposed because of the person's adherence of a religious faith or cause. So then all other brave soldiers of this world also perform martyrdom whenever they rush with guns blazing.

There are many way to interpret that and …

"I have come to you with a people who love death as much as you love life."

moving on ...

whose love for death in the cause of regaining their people's rights exceeded the Israelis' love for a life of security, safety and comfort..."

So then in return Israelis love for life exceeded the Palestinian love for freedom and land, for which they are willing to sacrifice their life for?

I have come to you with an army of men that love death, as you love life."

That’s like telling a man you’re about to fight “I love getting punched in the face, bring it on!”

Tough talk, I don’t think its meant like that …

The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom."

Once again, we established what “martyr” is all about so then I figure if you don’t give reason for it to anyone (any solder, and yes these organization consider them self fighters for their cause and believe which in sense makes them soldiers in a way) they wont perform martyr.

"The Jews preached permissiveness and corruption, as they hid behind false slogans like freedom and equality, humanism and brotherhood... They are cowards in battle... they flee from death and fear fighting... They love life."

I think I made it clear when I replied in the post the first time – no government is as good as they make them selves stand out to be.



The rest of your post pretty much put all Muslims in the world as death seeking disease.

Let me ask you then; how many man, women and children have you seen cry their eyes out all over middle east during this past – how they call it “operation freedom”? And this is from all sides: Jews, Muslims and Christian. So then if they can all equally cry for loved ones then one can say that they can equally have thrust for death too. Or is it in your one-sided mind only the Muslims?

I’m sorry, my eyes are wide open and I will conclude this reply with the same I said in my last post:

“Its time for religion to be completely out of politics in every country. It has done nothing more that hurt and destroyed humanity”

… because this guy and many like him need to go!

[War Angel]

The ideals of Shas were authentic in 1000 BC

NOT, and that's my point. Their ideals are NOT traditional Jewish ideals and customs, but something very diaspora-like, fitting of scared little Jews living in their ghetto or shtetle, not a sovereign country. 3,000 years ago, they'd be considered a severe oddity, and would probably be cast out\killed for paganism. They are Haredi Jews, they are NOT, by any stretch of the word, authentic. Maybe authentic to 18th century Poland, or something. What's even more bizzare, that Shas is a MIZRAHI (i.e, an eastern\non Ashkenazi) party, comprised almost solely of Mizrahi\Spharadi Jews, where customs like wearing all black (maybe it's a goth phase), segregating themselves, etc. These things were not part of a Mizrahi Jew's life.

However, they certainly regard themselves as embodying the values of traditional Judaism.

And Jesus thought he was the son of God. People shouldn't be taken seriously.

What does nature care whether people commit sodomy or not? According to Shas, G-d cares, and therefore nature itself reacts to human moral behaviour.

Most religious Jews would agree that it's not of God's ways to punish his children this way. If gays are indeed committing a sin, they themselves should be punished - not innocents.

[Potemkin]

NOT, and that's my point. Their ideals are NOT traditional Jewish ideals and customs, but something very diaspora-like, fitting of scared little Jews living in their ghetto or shtetle, not a sovereign country. 3,000 years ago, they'd be considered a severe oddity, and would probably be cast out\killed for paganism. They are Haredi Jews, they are NOT, by any stretch of the word, authentic. Maybe authentic to 18th century Poland, or something. What's even more bizzare, that Shas is a MIZRAHI (i.e, an eastern\non Ashkenazi) party, comprised almost solely of Mizrahi\Spharadi Jews, where customs like wearing all black (maybe it's a goth phase), segregating themselves, etc. These things were not part of a Mizrahi Jew's life.

Mmmm... fair enough. Actually, I was trying to make a subtle quasi-Hegelian point that by being 'authentic' they were actually being inauthentic. But if they aren't actually 'authentic' at all, then my point becomes meaningless. Oh well.

And Jesus thought he was the son of God. People shouldn't be taken seriously.

Actually, there's no real evidence that Jesus himself claimed any such thing. He would probably have been horrified at the idea that the uncircumcised would one day worship him as a divinity.

Most religious Jews would agree that it's not of God's ways to punish his children this way. If gays are indeed committing a sin, they themselves should be punished - not innocents.

Doesn't that fly in the face of Biblical evidence, in which God is described punishing the innocent for the sins of others with great relish? And isn't there a passage where God talks about the sins of the fathers being visited on the children even unto the seventh generation?

[redcarpet]

So does that mean that the Nazi's are absolved of responsibility of the crime, since they were just doing gods work for him?

Well they also claimed to be doing God's work too. By domestically dealing with the 'immoral'(eg. gays, adulterers, etc) and domestically by 'spreding the values of Christian spiritual civilisation,' and 'restoring the Slavs to their rightful holmes', etc.

The Pope in Rome(God's rep. on Earth in Catholicism) endorsed Mussolini's dictatorship as well.

[Tonic]

MP Benizri asked to clarify his position, he quoted from the Gemara which apparently "makes a link between gay sex, God's wrath and earthquakes", and then added:


"God says you shake your genitals where you are not supposed to and I will shake my world in order to wake you up,"

Accordingly to Haaretz:


Ophir Pines-Paz (Labor) wittily replied: "Then change the Gemara." Reform Rabbi Gilad Kariv said that the "only organ that shook the Knesset was Benizri's unrestrained tongue."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/956423.html

[War Angel]

Actually, there's no real evidence that Jesus himself claimed any such thing. He would probably have been horrified at the idea that the uncircumcised would one day worship him as a divinity.

Hehe, yeah, I know. He was a very religious Jew, and there's no way he would've supported that.

Doesn't that fly in the face of Biblical evidence, in which God is described punishing the innocent for the sins of others with great relish?

Hmm.. yes, quite true. Still, I think that despite that, most Jews would agree that there has to be some measure of well, measure. You can't cause an earthquake because some people are having buttsex!

And isn't there a passage where God talks about the sins of the fathers being visited on the children even unto the seventh generation?

That's not really relevant, as I see it. It actually has some merit, as certain values and education carries on through-out the ages and generations.