EU Migration Crisis & Turkey - Page 78 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14694425
Harmattan wrote:I would attempt to make a deal with every poor country on this planet, offering them money to welcome immigrants we cannot deport to their home countries. If I cannot reach the needed capacity, then I would use the measures I enumerated to force one of them, and Libya could be this one.

And, trust me, putting them in Libya could never be worse than putting them in my country.

So dump a million refugees in Libya? Even if you ignore that this clearly violates the Refugee Convention, which you shouldn't, it is just flat out stupid. Libya is in a civil war and the situation would likely be worsened significantly if you did that.

At the end of 2015 there were about 65 million refugees worldwide, according to a recent UN report. Do you think refugees are just conjured out of thin air, created in a vacuum? No, they are refugees because of war, repression and instability in their countries. Now, do you think there will be more or less refugees if you worsen the situation in Libya?

Harmattan wrote:That being said I am inclined to welcome up to 10k refugees a year. Preferably non-Muslims.

Is this only about the refugees being Muslim to you? If there was a stream of more than one million Christian refugees from poor parts of the world to Europe, would you be okay with accepting them? I find it peculiar that the 'thought-crime' of being Muslim somehow excempts refugees from their right to seek asylum, in your mind.
#14694430
They have a right to seek asylum and sane nations have a right to tell them to go pound sand. Japan only accepted 27 Syrian refugees...two of whom have already been arrested and indicted for rape. :knife:

I would prefer to simply withdraw from the refugee convention completely but another option is to just ignore it since it has no enforcement provisions of any kind.

Christian refugees from the Levant and Egypt should be accepted as they've demonstrated themselves to be basically similar to Europeans.
#14694446
Dave wrote:They have a right to seek asylum and sane nations have a right to tell them to go pound sand.

Of course, no nation should be forced to take any refugees.

Dave wrote:Japan only accepted 27 Syrian refugees...two of whom have already been arrested and indicted for rape. :knife:

The "rapefugee" myth will never die. :knife:

Dave wrote:I would prefer to simply withdraw from the refugee convention completely but another option is to just ignore it since it has no enforcement provisions of any kind.

Any nation can do that right now. I wonder why they don't. Hmmmm. No enforcement provisions does not mean no blowback from kicking refugees out or sending them back. What do you imagine the international reaction to Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon sending all their Syrian refugees back to Syria would be? Do you think there would be no international reaction? Because if so you are delusional, which you might very well be judging from your signature. :p

Dave wrote:Christian refugees from the Levant and Egypt should be accepted as they've demonstrated themselves to be basically similar to Europeans.

How have they demonstrated this more than the Muslims from the same areas?
#14694451
http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2016/02/22 ... -of-woman/ Myth? :?:

They don't withdraw from the refugee convention because it would be bad PR. Beyond that in a number of countries the local government and press are infiltrated or outright controlled by liberals and globalists who hate the indigenous populations they rule over. So simply ignoring the treaty is likely the best option, but Westerners are not as good at hypocrisy as Japanese and Koreans and thus we'd benefit from withdrawing. Besides, we ARE the "international community" so we can do whatever we want.

Christians in the Levant and Egypt are what Amy Chua called "market dominant minorities" owing to Medieval specialization in haram trades. Furthermore, they don't inbreed unlike mohammedans and thus don't suffer from the same level of clannishness, inbreeding depression, or mendelian disease. In my country Levantine Christians have provided good Americans like Ralph Nader and Darrel Issa indistinguishable from whites whereas mohammedans (other than some from the Pakistani upper class) have been nothing but trouble as they tend to be in most places.

There's an NPR interview about Copts from before the troubles if you're interested: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=89790980
#14694471
Dave wrote:http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2016/02/22/tokyo-cops-arrest-turkish-asylum-seekers-in-gang-rape-of-woman/ Myth? :?:

What I meant was the "rapefugee" myth in a more general sense, which is what I thought you were alluding to.

Dave wrote:They don't withdraw from the refugee convention because it would be bad PR.

Imagine a European country, for example Denmark where I live, decided tomorrow to withdraw from the Refugee Convention, which two parties actually have suggested, and send Syrian refugees back to Aleppo and Raqqa. Do you think the reaction would just be "bad PR"? :?:

Dave wrote:Beyond that in a number of countries the local government and press are infiltrated or outright controlled by liberals and globalists who hate the indigenous populations they rule over.

Image

Dave wrote:Christians in the Levant and Egypt are what Amy Chua called "market dominant minorities" owing to Medieval specialization in haram trades. Furthermore, they don't inbreed unlike mohammedans and thus don't suffer from the same level of clannishness, inbreeding depression, or mendelian disease. In my country Levantine Christians have provided good Americans like Ralph Nader and Darrel Issa indistinguishable from whites whereas mohammedans (other than some from the Pakistani upper class) have been nothing but trouble as they tend to be in most places.

How have Christians from the Middle East demonstrated that they are basically similar to Europeans more than Muslim from the Middle East in Europe?
#14694474
Denmark is a nobody. Harmattan is French, and while France isn't America I'm confident nobody would try sanctioning the French. The usual suspects would get the vapors which is a feature rather than a bug for some of us. :D

There are many assimilated Christians of Levantine descent in France who cause no problems. Harmattan, being French, can add more details.

The French mohammedan community meanwhile is best known for petty crime, rioting, stabbings, terrorist attacks, and car-b-ques.
#14694475
Owsley wrote:What I meant was the "rapefugee" myth in a more general sense, which is what I thought you were alluding to.
"Rapefugee" is a word that rose out of Cologne like incidents that spread throughout Europe after million or so refugees flooded Europe. It is no myth. These things actually did happen and do happen. The current migration actually did bring significant negative consequences with it as many people had warned prior.

I see you still trying to wiggle yourself out and preserve your pro-refugee position. Just give up you were wrong before the debate even started here.
Last edited by Albert on 22 Jun 2016 23:11, edited 3 times in total.
#14694505
Albert wrote:The current migration actually did bring significant negative consequences with it as many people had warned prior.

What happened so far isn't really significant in the grand scheme of things. The main problem is that the countries which have taken the largest proportion of people have probably expanded an already existing economic underclass. I do not want to speculate why certain groups of people tend do fare so badly economically, but I know the facts and they aren't looking promising to put it mildly.

Similar to the EU debate, most of the discussions miss the point. Even talking about asylum and refugees is misleading. In reality we are talking about migration since it's unlikely that the majority of "refugees" will be going back after their home countries are considered safe again. Politicians and most people with a connection to reality know this, otherwise we wouldn't need large scale integration programmes, we wouldn't hear about them paying German and Austrian pensions, etc.
#14694599
@Owsley
Of course this would worsen the situation in Syria, but this would improve the situation in my country (even after accounting the surge of terrorism). We would have less Muslims, and very few Muslim immigrants would still attempt to come since they would know it brings them nothing. Reverting the Islamization of our large cities should be a priority and this will not be easy.

As for the proposed quota, I believe that in all circumstances there must be quotas on immigration. But they must be differ for every group to account that certain cultures assimilate a lot better and to factor the current sizes and distributions of each group. Islam does not assimilate at all so we can only tolerate a very tiny quota. As Dave pointed out, the Christians from Lebanon, Armenia, and others assimilated very well. So did all Western Europeans, most of Eastern Europeans (not Roms), many Turks (although this may no longer be the case today), most of Senegalese, Gabonese, Chinese, Koreans, Cubans, etc.

Of course it would be better to have an individualized treatment, but unless you have a future telling machine and a mind reader, we will have to stick to my method. Letting things continue as they are would be a crime against our people.
#14694628
Istanbuller wrote:Erdogan threatens to fill Europe with refugees once again today. Sometimes i understand you why you people don't like him. :)


You would get it all the time if you could just refocus your misplaced patriotism.

You support him because of the relative progress of turkey in the medium term which is logical. Even truly great leaders like napoleon had a sell by date. Once passed this they are merely fighting for ego and will just drag you down til you kick them out. There are ever 1000 people awaiting trial for insulting your golem of a leader.

Help to put turkey back on the right path. That is your real duty as a Turkish patriot.
#14694916
There are quite a lot of horrible "rapefugee"/migrant rape stories:
* Iraqi refugee in Austria rapes 10-year-old boy, justifies it citing "sexual emergency," sentenced to 6 years in prison: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... court.html
* 20-year-old German woman hosts Afghan man in her home using the "Refugees Welcome" Internet platform, is raped during her sleep: http://www.rundschau-online.de/region/k ... t-24119842
* Three Iraqi/Sudanese boys gang rape a 5-year-old girl in Idaho, urinate in her mouth: http://www.kivitv.com/news/twin-falls-p ... se-descent
* (Male) Norwegian left-wing politician - self-described "feminist" and "anti-racist" is raped by Somali migrant, feels "guilty" the criminal was deported: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 75041.html
* 23-year-old drunk Briton "raped on a bed of nettles" by failed asylum seeker named Ayoub Khalifa: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/nor ... y-11137544

Etc, etc.

If a nationalist government were in charge of any Western European country, and instructed the State media to systematically cover such foreigner-on-native crime (as happens every day), I suspect a very strong social consensus against non-European immigration could be rapidly established.

Image
Is that the face of the kind of person who will survive the twenty-first century?

We need to start awarding Darwin Awards to these kinds of people.

Modernity is proving to be something like an extinction-level event for people of European descent. We evidently are not evolved for our current context of disarming comfort and mass transport. Probably most of our people will not make it. Fortunately, I believe a critical proportion of our people is already awakening.

Of course, pro-migrant people will argue that these cases represent a minority of migrants. Maybe so, but for whatever reason (retrograde culture of repressed sexually and misogyny?) they do seem to commit a hugely disproportionate amount. In any case one can raise the question: Why should Westerners tolerate policies which allows even one of our women, children, or men (!) to be unnecessarily raped by such savages? Some will consider this an acceptable price to pay for multiculturalism, feeling good about hosting fugees, or whatever.

And we get these spectacular cases of mass rapes, often by second- and third-generation migrants, as in Cologne and Rotherham. And some politicians and journalists have downplayed or denied these crimes! Then a few people start digging up old quotes about watering the tree of liberty, etc!
#14694939
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Similar to the EU debate, most of the discussions miss the point. Even talking about asylum and refugees is misleading. In reality we are talking about migration since it's unlikely that the majority of "refugees" will be going back after their home countries are considered safe again. Politicians and most people with a connection to reality know this, otherwise we wouldn't need large scale integration programmes, we wouldn't hear about them paying German and Austrian pensions, etc.
Indeed, the main issues are not discussed. I see this is a consequence of political atmosphere that developed because of censorship ('political correctness') on ideas that could be expressed in public arena. This is why we have people discussing things only really in relation to the actual issues, to avoid the wrath of the 'establishment' and 'progressive liberals'.

With that said I want to connect what I said to what you said here
What happened so far isn't really significant in the grand scheme of things. The main problem is that the countries which have taken the largest proportion of people have probably expanded an already existing economic underclass. I do not want to speculate why certain groups of people tend do fare so badly economically, but I know the facts and they aren't looking promising to put it mildly.
What has happened so far is indeed not all that significant if you look at decades of mass-immigration. Yet the current migration crisis is really important nevertheless, in that sense I see it as a turning point.

We had Markel eagerly inviting migrants with open arms of true humanitarian and in spirit of 'vision', progress and liberalism. Yet to see instantly the horrific consequences of all that. The narrative that the establishment has been pushing for decades now, was just simply blown out of the water. And all their cover ups and disgusting ways they went about it was exposed. Cologne truly was just that. There is no going back now after Cologne things changed forever. This is why we see now more and more political discussion is arriving to the issues that are needed to be addressed. Years ago some dialogue you see now, even in mass media, simply would not had happened without the establishment crying racist or whatever. I mean even look at America with Trump. So things are oh changin'.
#14695023
Dave wrote:Denmark is a nobody. Harmattan is French, and while France isn't America I'm confident nobody would try sanctioning the French. The usual suspects would get the vapors which is a feature rather than a bug for some of us. :D

Maybe you are right that there would be no sanctions. Who knows?

However, non-refoulement is not just part of the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees. The principle is also a part of the Convention against Torture, which you would have to withdraw from as well. It is not just trucial law either. The International Court of Justice recognizes non-refoulement as part of customary international law. On top of that it is also part of EU law. You make it seem as if it would be a simple process to withdraw from international law.

Albert wrote: "Rapefugee" is a word that rose out of Cologne like incidents that spread throughout Europe after million or so refugees flooded Europe. It is no myth. These things actually did happen and do happen. The current migration actually did bring significant negative consequences with it as many people had warned prior.

I see you still trying to wiggle yourself out and preserve your pro-refugee position. Just give up you were wrong before the debate even started here.

Yes, people rape and no one is claiming that there are no refugees who rape. What you have to prove is that refugees are more likely to rape than anyone else and you have clearly failed miserably at doing that. I have already debunked it for you and I do not feel like wasting my time doing it again, you can just go back and read it once again.

Harmattan wrote:@Owsley
Of course this would worsen the situation in Syria, but this would improve the situation in my country (even after accounting the surge of terrorism). We would have less Muslims, and very few Muslim immigrants would still attempt to come since they would know it brings them nothing. Reverting the Islamization of our large cities should be a priority and this will not be easy.

As for the proposed quota, I believe that in all circumstances there must be quotas on immigration. But they must be differ for every group to account that certain cultures assimilate a lot better and to factor the current sizes and distributions of each group. Islam does not assimilate at all so we can only tolerate a very tiny quota. As Dave pointed out, the Christians from Lebanon, Armenia, and others assimilated very well. So did all Western Europeans, most of Eastern Europeans (not Roms), many Turks (although this may no longer be the case today), most of Senegalese, Gabonese, Chinese, Koreans, Cubans, etc.

Of course it would be better to have an individualized treatment, but unless you have a future telling machine and a mind reader, we will have to stick to my method. Letting things continue as they are would be a crime against our people.

Obviously, I disagree. But it would be legitimate, in my mind, to send a refugee back once there is peace in their country even if many years have passed by. It would depend on the individual case, though. There is a very real problem with intergration of Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa in Europe. What I am against is sending refugees back to warzones, or places that could potentially become warzones. But we will probably never agree on that and I am getting sort of tired of repeating the same arguments over and over. :p
#14695030
Owsley wrote:Yes, people rape and no one is claiming that there are no refugees who rape. What you have to prove is that refugees are more likely to rape than anyone else and you have clearly failed miserably at doing that. I have already debunked it for you and I do not feel like wasting my time doing it again, you can just go back and read it once again.
Refugees should not be raping period, if you have migrants committing crime then there is something obviously broken with the immigration system.

I have a hit what might be broken, letting in whole bunch of random people swim across without documents or any way to check who the fuck they are to begin with!

On top of that not documenting them and keeping track of them once they are in Europe, so if they do commit crime it is hard to find, arrest, prosecute them and even to deport them!
#14695042
Albert wrote:Refugees should not be raping period, if you have migrants committing crime then there is something obviously broken with the immigration system.

I have a hit what might be broken, letting in whole bunch of random people swim across without documents or any way to check who the fuck they are to begin with!

On top of that not documenting them and keeping track of them once they are in Europe, so if they do commit crime it is hard to find, arrest, prosecute them and even to deport them!

Russian and English hooligans have been attacking people in France during the European Championship. No tourists should be commiting crimes in France, so laws regarding tourism in France are obviously broken, therefore France should ban all tourism. I mean, they are just letting a bunch of random football fans in and everyone knows England will never win it anyway. Deport all English and Russian fans! ;)
#14695953
A warning call for Europe. After remarkable long quiet and stability in Jordan, riots to topple king Abdallah

[youtube]DMJr4tu078k[/youtube]




Rare riots in Jordan see many arrested

The Jordanian town of Dhiban has been the scene of rare riots against the government over the lack of job opportunites and rising unemployment; Jordanian security forces have been working to stop the riots, while the government is trying to solve the jobs problem.
Roi Kais|Published: 25.06.16 , 19:53


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 97,00.html
#14697072
Harmattan wrote:And who are those genocidal groups that we, forces of evil and priests of Satan who cause everything wrong in this world and love nothing more than killing poor people, support please? I want precise accusations for once.

Yes, I am talking to you Mr "I want the west to leave ISIS alone even though they actually commit genocides because they are just poor brown guys and you are evil white people".


Well, the west has supported ISIS, the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, the Saudi gov't, and a few others.
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