[Rugoz]

I believe EU is already dead. Britain just did a brave act to get out when it is more easier then it would be later. Its not nice but it had to be done.

I do not believe Eurocrats will be able to reverse the momentum of disintegration now. For one they are just to stupid to do so. Second, the apparatus of EU itself is broken and it won't be fixed any time soon because see the first point, and plus it takes time which there is non now. Third, god hates the EU.

The UK always had a difficult relationship with the EU. In all other member states "remain" would very likely win.

[Rei Murasame]

I believe EU is already dead. Britain just did a brave act to get out when it is more easier then it would be later. Its not nice but it had to be done.

I do not believe Eurocrats will be able to reverse the momentum of disintegration now.

Yep. Time basically ran out at around when December 2015 came around and Merkel had somehow survived what had appeared at first to be electoral difficulties and leadership challenges from inside her party.

Also, the fact that economically speaking, it had even reached the point where the ECB and IMF were at odds, with Christine Lagarde actually talking more sense than Mario Draghi was the entire time.

And then, to top it all off, 'surge funding', the idea that the whole EU structure should burn through the AAA credit rating which had been salvaged by doing brutal austerity against the South of Europe and East of Europe even as 50% youth unemployment hit Spain and Greece and Eastern European women were being sent into prostitution, the idea the credit rating preserved by letting that happen, should now be used to fund migrant settlement programmes to do population replacement against the aforementioned disadvantaged Europeans.

It's unsustainable and in 5 years it will be an economic basket case.

I waited to see if a coherent Europe-wide attempt to counter this would appear, but it never came. It just continued, and there wasn't enough time to fix it.

I do not live among Anglo-Saxons in America .

I wasn't saying that you were, I just used them as an opposite example. You're Swiss as I recall, and they would model similarly to the Americans most likely, because Switzerland is also a bunch of people who self-selected by choosing to go and migrate there and are 'entrepreneurial' in their outlook on life rather than 'managing risks'.

[Rugoz]

I wasn't saying that you were, I just used them as an opposite example. You're Swiss as I recall, and they would model similarly to the Americans most likely, because Switzerland is also a bunch of people who self-selected by choosing to go and migrate there and are 'entrepreneurial' in their outlook on life rather than 'managing risks'.

That is not an accurate description of Swiss history or mentality, to put it mildly.

More like a bunch of backward peasants in the mountains who happened to be pretty good at war driving out the Austrian overlords.

[Beren]

Brexit: Merkel says 'no need to be nasty' in leaving talks

So Merkel doesn't unleash the bombers? No Battle of Britain then? Many must be disappointed!
I also say let's give Boris a chance to do it smoothly, otherwise we get Farage or someone worse later. The smoother it goes the better.

[layman]

Boris has said before he wanted a second referendum on what the proposed terms will be. The leave campaign told a pack of lies and have no actual mandate so he can't just invent one himself. Mr Farage should now be put out to pasture.

The question is whether the Europeans will tolerate 'project fudge' as I am calling it. I think (hope) queen merkel will play along with it for German pragmatism. Many others will be far more hostile I am sure.

[Rei Murasame]

The puppet master reveals himself:


Click image for link.

Lord Ashcroft: A man so epic that his puppet strings have puppet strings on them so he can puppeteer while he puppeteers.

EDIT: For those who don't know, Shipman is a journalist at The Times.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Boris has said before he wanted a second referendum on what the proposed terms will be. The leave campaign told a pack of lies and have no actual mandate so he can't just invent one himself. Mr Farage should now be put out to pasture.

The question is whether the Europeans will tolerate 'project fudge' as I am calling it. I think (hope) queen merkel will play along with it for German pragmatism. Many others will be far more hostile I am sure.

My hope is that all the short term turbulence is blamed on Boris, destroying his prime ministerial hopes and overall political career. The man is scum who rolled the dice and got lucky. Farage however has been campaigning for a Brexit even when he as the sole voice doing so.

[Igor Antunov]

The European Central Bank has fanned fears that London could lose its status as Europe’s financial capital after warning that the Brexit vote might sever the City’s trade relationship with the EU.

A top ECB official said banks in the City of London risked being stripped of their lucrative EU “passports” that allow them to sell services to the rest of the union. François Villeroy de Galhau said keeping the so-called “passport” would not be possible if the UK leaves the single market of trade in goods and services.

The ECB governing council member also echoed calls from EU leaders for quick Brexit talks and he warned that Britain would bear the brunt of the economic consequences of leaving the EU, while other European countries would be less hard hit.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... b-official

My guess is it is in Eurocrats interest to make an example of Britain, this would be done by sinking its economy as punishment for leaving. It would ensure nobody else in the Union gets cute and starts referendums.

Isolating the city of London from EU finance would just about do it. Fallout from a UK implosion is preferable to a EU implosion to them. Furthermore they will coddle Scotland in order to de-legitimize the euro skeptic movement. If Scotland leaves UK it would be a coup for the Eurocrats, they will have a case study and example of what happens when you leave their clawed embrace...you cease to exist as a country.

[night games]

Stay strong, Britain

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Furthermore they will coddle Scotland in order to de-legitimize the euro skeptic movement. If Scotland leaves UK it would be a coup for the Eurocrats, they will have a case study and example of what happens when you leave their clawed embrace...you cease to exist as a country.

They could even sell this as the democratic option. Very bad form though and opposed by some EU members because of their own independence movements.

I know why you are so gleeful about this, but reading and listening to some other Europeans, you don't seem to be alone. It's pretty weird, but quite a few people do seem to take this personal and quite a lot have even bought into the propaganda that Europe = EU. The latter irritates me to no end.

[Igor Antunov]

I tire of a puppet EU, a US dominion. With the compromised British leaving, maybe a federal EU can move forward, and eventual independence for Europe as a whole could ensue. For the first time, Europeans united under a European regime. Merkel must go however. She is weak and a nato puppet.

Even better if the UK implodes, it means even less US imperialism on the continent, pitting Europeans against Europeans (russia).

In short, EU is just a dirty little pet, but this sequence of recent events has the capacity to make it something more. Or it has the capacity to destroy it, which would also be a big bonus because no EU is preferable to a puppet EU.

As things stand it is the best hope Europeans have of uniting and staying competitive in a world that tends towards pre-ww1 spheres of influence/empires. Might as well be Europeans in charge of Europeans. Britain has been a massive liability in this regard for the longest time. Without it EU can become something respectable if it survives the cutting of the leash.

[Rugoz]

It's pretty weird, but quite a few people do seem to take this personal and quite a lot have even bought into the propaganda that Europe = EU. The latter irritates me to no end.

Agreed. I do not think the EU accurately reflects a European consensus, e.g. on border controls and a Greek exit from the Eurozone.

Not that I solely blame the "Eurocrats", its member states that nominate commissioners and form the European Council. European integration has become a project of the elites.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Agreed. I do not think the EU accurately reflects a European consensus, e.g. on border controls and a Greek exit from the Eurozone.

Not that I solely blame the "Eurocrats", its member states that nominate commissioners and form the European Council. European integration has become a project of the elites.

I don't blame the eurocrats either. They are pretty powerless overall or only as powerful as the member states let them be. In a crisis they obviously have no say at all and usually only make statements from the sidelines while one or more member states make political decisions for the whole EU.

I think it's an inevitable consequence that EU politics is increasingly removed from the citizenry, as the EU is supranational and hence it is one more step away. Additionally, these people are supposed to make politics for all EU citizens or at least with all EU citizens in mind, but how much does an Austrian politician who is now in the EU parliament or the EC actually care about a Romanian or Brit other than on the abstract "we are now all equal" level? The consequence is that the vast majority of EU decision makers hardly cares about the vast majority of EU citizens. I suppose this could be seen as inevitable growing pains until the nation states are no longer relevant to people, but seeing as the idea that the nation states need to be replaced by something similar at the EU level seems to be rejected, I'm not quite sure how they imagine this will work out successfully.

I cannot explain the prevalence of the EU integration dogma, EU = Europe and the insistence that the EU must be a package deal and everybody who isn't quite so keen on it is a troublemaker and must get out ASAP or beaten into submission. If we had pragmatists in charge, rather than idealist ideologues, then this union would be much more flexible and we would be able to accommodate European countries and their populations to a much greater degree, perhaps even Switzerland and the UK.

I agree with you that most Europeans would probably vote to remain in the EU if given the chance, but in my opinion it is the wrong question. The real question that needs to be asked is what kind of EU people want. I'm convinced that the vast majority has nothing against the free trade area and even free movement for the most part, and there are a lot of good programmes and institutions the EU has created for countries and people to cooperate that are appreciated. That's quite likely true for a lot of Brexit voters, especially if the UK were allowed to limit the number of EU migrants or at least the unskilled ones, and maybe even the Swiss.

[layman]

Furthermore they will coddle Scotland in order to de-legitimize the euro skeptic movement.

You think that because you think the world works like a game of HOI.

Press is reporting that the SNP have been snubbed. They have been told this changes nothing and they will need to reapply.

[night games]

Layman, you sound very demoralized because of the economical uncertainties. You have a very high tasks ahead mainly the repatriation of much of the settled Islamic population including those who were born and raised in Britain. This challenge will probably involved by violence and terror from both sides but in the end you will earn Britain back. It's the last opportunity.

[layman]

Yes, nearly every POFO member has their own motives to be happy. Usually as a Perceived win against mass migration or globalization.

The reality is that this is a con as far as the brits themselves are concerned. It may or may not help foreigners with their own goals, ironically.

It is worth noting at this may still not happen. Article 50 was never something boris or grove wanted to enact so they may well just drag their feet. We may end up just getting a renegotiation if the europeans are wiling to entertain our outburst.

[night games]

British should be back Churchillians. You need to go ahead with the plan reclaiming Britain despite predictable severe setbacks on economy or inner instability. There is no other option after 50 years of EU mutation. Germany and Sweden are probably lost case but Britain can still save itself. It seems you are attached to German economy safety net but it's very short sighted policy. For the long term Germany is doomed.

[danholo]

Self-reliance is the only way forward. North Korea and Great Britain can finally be the allies they were meant to be.

"With the endearing vision of the Dear Leader's Songun policy we will bring our wondrous peoples to victory!"

[Decky]

And in a pencil stroke, I transferred my strategic eggs in the European zone from the amalgamated EU European bourgeoisie basket into the basket of a particular section of the British bourgeoisie. At that time I already knew that we were going to win based on the models and the mood around us, so the Brexit result didn't surprise me at all.

Didn't you take a pen to make sure the EU couldn't rub out the vote? I did.

[Beren]

For the long term Germany is doomed.

Sure, and Britain is doomed to flourish!

Have you people seen this already?