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By Huntster
#13189198
I fail to see how patriarchy has anything to do with filming or photographing sex acts to publish for others to watch like entertainment.

Well I was more alluding to beautiful people being nothing more than entertainment harks bark to patriarchy which has always seen beautiful women as nothing more than sexual pleasure centers.


I believe that regarding beautiful women "as nothing more than sexual pleasure centers" is a lack of human respect that has nothing to do with patriarchy.

In fact, with patriarchy in full force in Islamic society, pornography is a sin that is much more in the shadows than in the West, where it is widely available and openly advertised, and where patriarchy is openly criticized and in ideological retreat.

Open and widely available pornography is clearly a product of the sexual revolution, not patriarchy, and the sexual revolution is a product of liberalism.
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By Eire69
#13189229
It has to be ethical. It doesn't harm anyone and as long as it's regulated when it comes to transference of STD's then it's perfectly fine.
By Diligent
#13192159
When I was a ten-year-old I once had a wet dream to a Three Musketeers chocolate bar. Does this mean candy bars could be porn?


Product placement in porn -- what a genius idea! :)

In all seriousness though, I see nothing wrong with consenting porn. It is always amusing to see the moral crusaders take up arms against sex, while at the same time advocating violence. I'll take a world of orgies over a world of war any day of the week.
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By millie_(A)TCK
#13192836
Millie would you prefer porn be made with ugly people?


I don't care one way how porn is made as long as it doesn't use unwilling people, any children or animals. Of course beautiful people are what draws people the most and that's fine. You misunderstood what I was alluding to with my earlier statement about beauty.

I believe that regarding beautiful women "as nothing more than sexual pleasure centers" is a lack of human respect that has nothing to do with patriarchy.

In fact, with patriarchy in full force in Islamic society, pornography is a sin that is much more in the shadows than in the West, where it is widely available and openly advertised, and where patriarchy is openly criticized and in ideological retreat.

Open and widely available pornography is clearly a product of the sexual revolution, not patriarchy, and the sexual revolution is a product of liberalism.

I wouldn't mind being thought of as a sexual pleasure centre, not everyone resists this or believes "Patriarchy" is the driving factor.


Of course many people love the admiration but my criticism was about how patriarchy and now capitalism has made it so that beautiful people are ONLY seen as sexual objects and any rejection of that by them is belittled or in some cases oppressed. A`beautiful blonde woman for example might be seen as a moron good for just sex, that's rather demeaning. She probably has to face this stereotype daily and if she wants to be something other than just sexual she might be mocked. That's not fair.

But just because porn might engender a certain view of beautiful people doesn't mean it should change and stop using beautiful people. All the beautiful people, blondes, women etc can do is demand intellectual respect and if they are being discriminated in an intellectual field because of their looks or gender they should fight in court against it. In the end its how you carry yourself, people will always place prejudice unto others that suit their own selves. I was just pointing out that whether you like or not beautiful people are treated a certain way by society which is a double sword, and where some of these ways of judging the character of beautiful stems from.

That's all.
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By Suska
#13192840
To some extent I agree with you, although porn is by no means the perpetuator of "beautiful people" stereotypes, even the "media" (including artists such as myself) can't be the one we blame if its really so awful - its just natural. Everyone can be stereotyped.
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By Todd D.
#13192884
It has to be ethical. It doesn't harm anyone and as long as it's regulated when it comes to transference of STD's then it's perfectly fine.

I would suggest that it DOES harm people. It harms the participants as well as the viewers by reducing their views of intimacy to solely physical pleasure.
By ninurta
#13193063
millie_(A)TCK wrote:I read a report recently about the dysfunctions porn creates in young men, amongst those listed were:

- insecurities about own sex life, they thought they weren't having enough sex.
- dissapointment about female reactions to them during sex
- objectification of women
- inability to be turned on by normal women or without the aid of porn
- porn addiction etc

Very interesting, and this should be addressed and taken into consideration before people us porn.

But even if they're issues with it, it shouldn't be banned. People have a right to their sexual explorations as long as its consentual. There many people that have balanced sex lives even though they watch porn. Its really teens that should be cautioned about the dangers of porn. They should be given more than sex-ed classes, they should be given pointers on how to have healthy sex lives.

The only type of porn that should be banned are those that involve children and human trafficked persons. I am kinda sad nobody mentioned the latter group.

I agree 100%
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By millie_(A)TCK
#13193798
To some extent I agree with you, although porn is by no means the perpetuator of "beautiful people" stereotypes, even the "media" (including artists such as myself) can't be the one we blame if its really so awful - its just natural. Everyone can be stereotyped.


I said that as well ;) :
people will always place prejudice unto others that suit their own selves.
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By Suska
#13193804
people will always place prejudice unto others that suit their own selves.
I wouldn't state it as a rule, some people have crude and others have sophisticated ways, some are generous others not. So yeah, I agree but I'd qualify the matter differently.
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By millie_(A)TCK
#13193821
I wouldn't state it as a rule, some people have crude and others have sophisticated ways, some are generous others not. So yeah, I agree but I'd qualify the matter differently.


When I said people, I meant is as generally speaking, of course not everyone is prejudice..like me. :D :p
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By Suska
#13193837
not everyone is prejudice..like me
I assume you mean you are not prejudiced, I wouldn't know really, but if you believe that prejudice is counterproductive I'm with you.
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By Wellsy
#14704949
Though I understand it's substantial reading, these have been the more articulate papers I've seen implicated in discussions around pornography and asserted associations.

A Sensible Antiporn Feminism - A.W. Eaton
As summarized
My investigation will take the following shape. Section I provides an argument for APF and outlines some of its central tenets. Section II disentangles the various sorts of injury that pornography is thought to cause, exposing a wide array of harms that vary considerably in their character and severity. Section III examines the most common criticisms of APF and argues that they can be deflected by attributing to APF a more sensible conception of causation. Section IV assesses the current state of the evidence for APF’s case and outlines a path for future research. Section V addresses some lingering objections and suggest some problems for further reflection, while Section VI provides a brief conclusion.

They basically help bring clarity to the debate in hopes of progressing it.

Sexual Solipsism - Rae Langton
Rae Langton made a bit of a splash on the philosophical debate of objectification here. The classic concern of objectification that despite the idea that people treating things as people (ie porn) being seemingly benign, it may not be so if it has implications for the reverse, treating people as things.
Objectification - Martha Nussbaum
Another liberal philosopher well known for her work on objectification, M. Nussbaum, brings a broad conception of objectification and in it's breadth argues the difference between what would be morally benign or even virtuous forms of objectification and what are immoral or plausibly harmful.
To which I think it should be made clear from this work that feminists aren't concerned with the morally benign kind when they're criticizing porn should they use such a definition.

Rae Langton has also been quite interesting in using a liberal framework to take novel approaches in criticizing porn based on the premises in which it's currently defended in the US, ie free speech.
Projection & Objectification - Rae Langton
Here she explores the whether certain forms of objectification in themselves affirm a practice denying autonomy through affirmation of autonomy. This may sound odd but I'll provide snippets to help summarize the idea.
p. 296
Attribution of matching desire, through women's supposed capacity for vaginal orgasm - a science fiction about women that was long accepted as orthodox science. MacKinnon's explanation is that because 'men demand that women enjoy vaginal penetration', they acquire the belief, dressed up as science, that 'vaginal orgasms' are the only 'mature' sexuality; and accordingly the belief that women desire penetrative sex because this is their natural route to orgasm.33 Wishful thinking projects an imagined biological basis for a conveniently matching desire on the part of the woman, and adds whatever legitimisation is granted by a scientific establishment - an eery pseudo-science parallel to the science-fiction biology of Deep Throat. Does such an attribution of matching desire objectify women? One might suppose again that the attitude itself is not objectifying, that on the contrary it attributes an active independent desire to women, a distinct source of pleasure unique to women, that however erroneous, it is at least subjectivity-affirming and autonomy-affirming. This would be too hasty, given that the attitude denies that women have sexual experience they have, and asserts they have sexual experiences they lack- something that may count as subjectivity-denial, rather than affirmation. 34

There may also be instrumental thinking involved; how much more useful if the shape of women's sexual desire were the perfect match to that of men! The theorizing in turn perhaps helped to legitimate instrumental sexual use of women by other parties, by silencing, as 'immature' those women whose desires were apparently less convenient.

Also summarized in another paper discussing implocations of describing women's attire as provocative.
PROVOCATIVE DRESS AND SEXUAL RESPONSIBILITY - Jessica Wolfendale∗
p. 41
Secondly, and perhaps more troublingly, the provocation model illustrates what Rae Langton describes as the denial of autonomy through the affirmation of autonomy.83 When a woman’s outfit is described as provocative, she is not only reduced to a depersonalized sexual object or collection of sexual body parts. In addition, a specific subjective desire is attributed to her⎯the desire for sexual attention from men. But this attribution is not a form of respect for her autonomy. Instead, it denies her autonomy by undermining the credibility and authority of her actual desires, even if she explicit and repeatedly denies the attributed desire. Her stated preferences, if inconsistent with the intentions and desires attributed to her by men, are dismissed as not reflecting what she ‘really wants’⎯she says ‘no’, but her outfit says ‘yes’. Thus, it is men’s interpretations of her desires and intentions that are take as authoritative. Women’s actual spoken desires and intentions regarding men’s sexual attention are therefore silenced.

The authority given to men’s projected desires above women’s stated preferences creates an additional layer of potential menace to women’s choices regarding their clothing and their actions. Knowing that, despite one’s intentions and clearly stated preferences regarding sexual attention from others, one could still be accused of ‘wanting it’ or ‘asking for it’ is both destabilizing and highly disempowering.

Which I think is particularly interesting considering the shift in advertising decades ago from the typical understand of objectification into whats been coined as sexual objectification, which is not as intuitively problematic.
Empowerment/Sexism: Figuring Female Sexual Agency
in Contemporary Advertising - Rosalind Gill


Beyond Belief: Pragmatics in Hate Speech and Pornography - Rae Langton
Rae Langton still within a liberal framework also explores whether porn/objectification of a particular nature (ie that which could be identified being misogynistic) could contribute to a dehumanizing view of women and as such constitute hate speech, thus not worthy of being protected by free speech.

These works aren't empirical, but are an attempt to make clear certain ways of thinking identified as problematic by feminist thought. I think they take a softer position than radical feminists historically identified where the position isn't a blanket opposition to porn but to porn of a particular nature if proven it was significantly associated with certain effects upon people's psychology and eventually behavior.
I can't remember which one, but I also found interesting as a general point about the possible dangers in which the pleasurable feelings associated with pornography may make people irrational in identifying possibly problematic nature of things since they have such a positive association.
By ImperialSun
#14727178
Syd wrote:Is the distribution of pornography wrong or unethical- or the complete opposite? What are your views on pornography, and why.


Ethical IMO can be divided into 2 main questions:
Ethical to be sold to the main population.
Ethical to the people involved in the production of such things.

First question:
Many goods shouldn't be sold to many people, but are nevertheless. This is typical in free-market economies.
I think the key question is which camp people are in. 1) The camp that says any adult should be able to purchase anything, even harmful, if it only harms himself not others. 2) The camp that says that the state has moral obligations and should censor products according to how it wants its population to be.

Second question:
Difficult to say as I have not much knowledge of the porn industry. I do know many people in it die of unnatural causes (depression, drug use, etc). It can be considered an abusive industry in terms of how performers are treated. The way the male & female bodies are treated like going to a butcher to buy meat ("Grab her tits hard", "Put your finger in her XXX", "Destroy her", say various perverse things to turn on the viewer -I wont go into that, to avoid polluting this forum-).
But at the same time, the successful porn actors make good money.

I dont know, I see porn as being a typical thing produced in a capitalist economy, where "anything is for sale". Its a little bit like speaking of any other industry (IE: Fast Food): Is it good for for humanity/society? Could the world do without it? Probably. But at the same time its a natural symptom of our system.
By Scheherazade
#14734317
In brief summary I'd say production and consumption are immoral, with morality being defined by objective natural laws, not capitalism or the whims of societies.

Pornography is 'reductionistic', the the focus on the body parts, sex acts, or the actors as "static objects" rather than holistic, fluid individuals, which ties in with humans' vices, voyeuristic and rapacious.

I wouldn't object to states banning commercial porn entirely, or at least regulating it as a form of 'sociological or moral pollution', much as pollution from automobiles or factories is regulated.

(There would likely be a litmus test however distinguishing between "porn" and erotic art, to avoid things such as Venus di Milo being banned as porn".)
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By Godstud
#14734707
As long as pornography is between consenting adults, it is neither wrong, or unethical.
By anasawad
#14734885
Actually 'm pro porn industry.
For multiple reasons.
In one hand it makes economic value that many people benifit from and thus it produces more good than bad in this sense.
And on the other hand, there are 2 social effects for it.
First it can be usefull for sex ed in some context as well as routine change and refreshment for couples to try new things.

And on the other hand, it actually helps clearing the gene pool of bad candidates. Many men are mysoginistic, and oppressive and abusive to women and with the wave of women rights rising, those are finding it harder and harder to get into actual relationships, which is good because they shouldn't. And porn makes sure to keep them in that state out of any relationship that might produce kids and spread their beliefs which is very good.

So its a win-win for society.
By Scheherazade
#14734902
Godstud wrote:As long as pornography is between consenting adults, it is neither wrong, or unethical.

That's a myopic statement, as things can still be 'paternally' wrong even if not directly affecting non-consenting parties.

Alcoholism for example. Not to mention the idea that there are any actions which "don't affect others" is false, as chaos theory hints. So technically all actions, even those in a 'private bedroom' potentially affect others indirectly.
By Scheherazade
#14734903
Not to mention it's arguable that reducing sex to a mere bestial form of pleasure or entertainment, rather than one of human bonding and higher emotions - is paternally aberrant as well, regardless of consent or measurable affects on others.
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By Godstud
#14735161
That matter of emotional/human bonding is not for pornography to decide, but for you to decide.

This is like the argument against gay marriage, in that it somehow weakens real marriage. nothing could be further from the truth. I doubt there's a person out there who wouldn't take the real thing(sex between consenting adults) over simply watching(unless you're a voyeur, I guess).

How does sex between consenting adults affect non-consenting parties? Explain.

Watching pornography is a CHOICE. Comparing it to alcoholism is silly.
By Scheherazade
#14737333
Godstud wrote:That matter of emotional/human bonding is not for pornography to decide, but for you to decide.

It's not up for decision, it's a fact.

This is like the argument against gay marriage, in that it somehow weakens real marriage. nothing could be further from the truth. I doubt there's a person out there who wouldn't take the real thing(sex between consenting adults) over simply watching(unless you're a voyeur, I guess).

Then there's no reason society should encourage them to do the former, much as I have no problem with taxation on junk food or tobacco to discourage incentives to engage in those behaviors.

How does sex between consenting adults affect non-consenting parties? Explain.

Via chaos theory.

Watching pornography is a CHOICE. Comparing it to alcoholism is silly.

So is putting a bottle of alcohol to your lips.
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