[Baff]

Well, I'm from Cambridge too.
And you may not of have seen them, but they are here.
Murders in Cottenham.
Invasions at my place in Swavesey.

Where do you live Noemon? Go to the Steam Rally at Sto Cum Quy.
You'll see the AA signs for it on the roads.
The guys who run it are Irish travellers.

Gypsies are a persistent problem in this area. It's normally a rural concern. We are raised to deal with the threat.
Tell tale signs of this problem are everywhere.
When you take your dog for a walk next, or drive down to the M11, have a look around you.
You will see field entrances blockaded with earth and lumps of rock. Field gates all padlocked. It didn't used to be this way.

[noemon]

I have seen Travellers in Cambridge and I know all these areas, I have never seen Romanian/European Gypsies though. All these Travellers are British and irrelevant to the EU.

[Atlantis]

But seriously, the crime statistics on people from romania here are shocking.

Same on the continent. Roma gangs hassling tourists in some cities on the continent are a real pain in the A, but if the police takes a mind to it, they usually manage to clean them up pretty quickly ahead of the tourist season.

In Germany we have Poles and Czechs coming across the border to steal cars or burgle homes, but with increased cooperation among Schengen police forces, it's being dealt with. But all of that is nothing in comparison to the Russian or the Balkan mafia. The Czechs who are so prickly about giving asylum to war refugees are very generous in giving rich Balkan mafia bosses residence permits and a base inside the EU.

You see, Germany is at the cross roads of a lot of movement on the continent. But despite all of that, there is no paranoia as in the UK. There are about as many Poles in Germany as in the UK, but nobody would thing anything about it. What is it that makes modern Britain so fragile?

[noemon]

What is it that makes modern Britain so fragile?

Britain is not fragile to immigrants, provincial UK as well as the former industrial belt contains a lot of begrudged people, not with the immigrants but with the loss of their incomes, these rightfully begrudged people, look at London and the South-East and hate everything about these open multi-cultural & rich areas that they rightfully blame for wealth concentration, the immigrant grudge is merely a small manifestation within this hysteria.

When noone is talking about housing, when all the governments refuse to build more houses so that housing tycoons can sell at premium prices to wealthy foreigners, people start making connections of the housing market with immigration.

[layman]

What is it that makes modern Britain so fragile?

Depends what you mean. There are still class issues and a lost generation of working class britons who are fearful of low wage, hard working eastern europeans. You seem to assume it is always a case of 'looking down' on others which is actually Stereotyping of a different kind on your part. Many brits are not looking down but fearful of being outcompeted in their own country.

There is also the case of pure volume. The sheer influx of eastern europeans has been dramatic and hard to adjust to. Yes, Germany has had similar numbers but others havnt and germany tends to be a special case on these things. France is terrible with migrants and italy and spain just sends them north. When you actually look at hard surveys and data, britons are not the fearful racists you claim they are. There is a large number of liberal minded people here but perhaps opinion is more polarized than elsewhere.

What is interesting about you is how quick you are to generalize about europeans yourself. Not just the brits by the way but greeks, poles and others when you are making an argument. You do this but seem to be shocked when more ignorant, less educated, less politically aware people so the same ....

When noone is talking about housing, when all the governments refuse to build more houses so that housing tycoons can sell at premium prices to wealthy foreigners, people start making connections of the housing market with immigration.

Yes.

Rich capitalist foreigners, poor foreigners, globalism, the EU, the migration crisis, terrorism, european migraion and non-european migration are very conflated in many peoples minds. Many people think the EU control our borders for non-european migration, for example.

Again, not everyone spends their time on politics forums. Ignorance and misinformation are common.

[Baff]

You see, Germany is at the cross roads of a lot of movement on the continent. But despite all of that, there is no paranoia as in the UK. There are about as many Poles in Germany as in the UK, but nobody would thing anything about it. What is it that makes modern Britain so fragile?

While we both have something called free speech, Britains have something culturally that Germans lack. Freedom of thought. Freedom of behaviour.
The spirit of individualty. Eccentricity is celebrated and not scorned.

So what makes us different is we are not inclined to be pecked into line. Some one here will do something about it. Many of us. We don't adhere to political corrects, we revile them.

Germans will all stand by and watch something go wrong if the consensus says it's OK.
In the UK, someone will try and fix it if they see that it is wrong. Consensus be damned.


I think Germany has plenty of immigration issues of it's own. We have no trouble with Turks and Muslims. What are you so fragile about them?

Poles per se was not the issue. The total number of EU migrants was. No matter the particular nation any individual came from. It was the total number of them that counted.
Half of all the worlds migration to the UK, half, came from the EU. Tiny old EU swamping us.
I can have a polish gardener, but not my japanese wife. WTF?
I don't want a polish gardener. I want my girl. Why on earth am I giving preferential status to a complete stranger in Poland over the love of my life?
Bollox to the EU.

[Atlantis]

What is interesting about you is how quick you are to generalize about europeans yourself. Not just the brits by the way but greeks, poles and others when you are making an argument. You do this but seem to be shocked when more ignorant, less educated, less politically aware people so the same ....

You wouldn't say that if you had read me correctly. I know that I'm a bit too outspoken at times and nobody likes to be criticized by a foreigner, but believe me, I'm even more outspoken about Germans. We are more like Americans in that respect than the British.

As to the 'fragility' of the British, it's just a recurrent impression I'm getting of late when comparing the debate that comes out of the UK today with the UK I used to know in the 60s and 70s. At that time, the Brits knew they were superior, they didn't even have any need to show it, and a little criticism left them cold. These days, Brits are far quicker to go through the roof about minor criticism. I'm not saying this to upset you, I just like to put my impression up for debate, but that's difficult when all I get are knee-jerking reactions. Of course I can be diplomatic and throw about tidbits about how I admire the Brits, or whatever, but that seems hardly a good starting point for a debate, don't you think?

[Glen]

No, I mean Cambridge, I live on Trumpington road(less than mile for the city-centre) and I did not say caravans and trailers, I said Travellers.

I know Trumpington Road as an affluent area that terminates at the town centre's pedestrian zone. I have not witnessed any gypsy-like activities between the business school, the museum, and the botanic garden. Perhaps there is some Traveller activity in the surrounding farmland?

The important part is that all of them are British, not Gypsie Roma, these are different so you feeling for Baff because of Romanian Gypsies is quite disingenuous.

You have misread.

I was sympathetic to Baff's experience with trespassers, and I highlighted the general consensus is that Irish Travellers are born British. Baff had argued for the Irish Travellers to remain in the Irish Republic the next time they flee from UK authorities, and I was highlighting a problem with that logic.

[Glen]

... comparing the debate that comes out of the UK today with the UK I used to know in the 60s and 70s. At that time, the Brits knew they were superior, they didn't even have any need to show it, and a little criticism left them cold. These days, Brits are far quicker to go through the roof about minor criticism.

I get the impression that 1960's British people believed anything was possible. I suspect economic troubles in the 70's, and again in the 80's, may have lowered society's expectations. Can you expand on what is meant by superior?

[noemon]

I know Trumpington Road as an affluent area, and it terminates at the city centre's pedestrian area. Do you really see gypsy-like Travellers between a business school, a museum, and a golf course?

You missed the part where I said I have lived in cambridge for almost 15 years. And yes, you see Travellers in the city-centre whenever they are near Cambridge, that is the place for them to be. But as I have already said to Baff, I have lived in almost every single location in Cambridge, including Cottenham, Milton, Newmarket Road, Castle street and more.

You have misread. I was sympathetic to Baff's experience with trespassers, and I highlighted the general consensus is that Irish Travellers are born British. Baff had argued for the Irish Travellers to remain in the Irish Republic the next time they flee from UK authorities, and I was highlighting a problem with that logic.

I have not misread at all, you claimed:

More numerous contemporary Travellers are recent arrivals fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe, often blamed for fly-tipping and noise pollution in the UK:

Telegraph, 2013 via http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ought.html
Britain has one of the largest Roma populations in western Europe as around 200,000 migrants have set up home in the country. Most of the migrants who have set up home in Britain have arrived since a number of eastern European countries joined the European Union in 2004. With a population of around 12 million Roma are the largest ethnic minority in Europe, but often find themselves living in extreme poverty and subjected to discrimination. Many of the Roma in the UK are believed to have come from Slovakia, Bulgarian, Romanian, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Poland. The immigrants are escaping from areas where they have been “excluded and discriminated against for centuries”.


I sympathise with your account, and I doubt that preventing cross-border movement would impact Irish Travellers because most are born in the UK.

While you are clearly aware that Travellers are in fact British, especially the ones that had become an issue for Cambridge City Council 5 years ago as all those who live here remember, your infomercial about the Roma permits the idea that they could in fact be from Romania. Roma from Romania are very distinct to British Travellers and one cannot miss them, these Roma have never shown their faces in Cambridge at least and never has an issue been raised concerning them.

[Glen]

I can have a polish gardener, but not my japanese wife. WTF?
I don't want a polish gardener. I want my girl. Why on earth am I giving preferential status to a complete stranger in Poland over the love of my life?
Bollox to the EU.

I agree. Prior to the EU, your Japanese parents-in-laws would have enjoyed freedom of movement to the UK such that the whole family can remain close. Their freedom, and by extension your wife's happiness, has been revoked to compensate for economic migrants from the EU. Simple moral issues are under-represented in daily EU policy making.

[Glen]

... you see Travellers in the city-centre whenever they are near Cambridge ...

How do you identify them as Travellers, and not festival goers?

I have not misread at all, you claimed...

I suggest my quote has been taken out of context. I introduced Roma to the debate in the spirit of impartial discourse, because Roma provide a contrast to the Irish Travellers. Unlike Irish Travellers, Roma would be directly impacted by the loss of free movement.

... an issue for Cambridge City Council 5 years ago as all those who live here remember

I was in peaceful Surrey village 5 years ago, where there was also had a sudden rise in Travellers. I witnessed an isolated, but rather agitated, older white-haired lady mastermind their eviction: she practically chased 20 panicked Traveller families out of town while police watched on, and was evidently trained by the 1960s generation fondly recalled by Atlantis. Perhaps those Travellers fled to Cambridge.

You missed the part where I said I have lived in cambridge for almost 15 years.

I did not miss this, but at the time, I had no reason to consider the detail relevant to the debate.

[noemon]

How do you identify them as Travellers, and not festival goers?

Is this supposed to be a trick question?

I suggest my quote has been taken out of context. I introduced Roma to the debate in the spirit of impartial discourse, because Roma provide a contrast to the Irish Travellers. Unlike Irish Travellers, Roma would be directly impacted by the loss of free movement.

I do not see the point of introducing the Roma into the debate, but anyway...

Perhaps those Travellers fled to Cambridge.

The Travellers have been in Cambridge, especially in Cottenham, and Stow Cum Quy as well as the North of the City near Kings Hedges and the Science Park for many many years, the ones in Cottenham came to a head with the Council 5 years ago, but still some of them remain.

[Glen]

Is this supposed to be a trick question?

I am sincerely acknowledging my ignorance on the matter. How do you recognise Irish Travellers when they are away from their homes?

I have walked through the same markets, stopped at the same coffee shops, and shopped in the same high street stores. Throughout this I remained blissfully ignorant of an apparently persisting problem of Irish Travellers all around me. How do I spot them?

[noemon]

From their clothes, accents and from their ladies especially moving all-together in groups of all ages and being slightly distinct in their demeanour on the street.

But it is not just in times of a festival that they appear, even though during Strawberry Fair and other events they do increase exponentially as many of them actually own the rides, there are Travellers that are permanently in Cambridge and being 15 years in a city of 100,000 people that extends in a 10 mile radius, it does not take long before you get to know the city and its environs.

I have walked through the same markets, stopped at the same coffee shops, and shopped in the same high street stores. Throughout this I remained blissfully ignorant of an apparently persisting problem of Irish Travellers all around me. How do I spot them?

Travellers were never an issue in the town centre, Baff clearly mentioned the ones squatting 5 years ago, these are in the North Cambridge, not outside Cambridge but inside Cambridge. Cambridge is not just the Market Square, where you walked for 1, 2 or 3 years?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

You see, Germany is at the cross roads of a lot of movement on the continent. But despite all of that, there is no paranoia as in the UK. There are about as many Poles in Germany as in the UK, but nobody would thing anything about it. What is it that makes modern Britain so fragile?

Overall, there doesn't really seem to be too much difference in attitudes towards immigration between Germany and Britain, although Germans are more positive about migration from other EU countries than Brits. However, it's certainly not true that "nobody in Germany would think anything about it", whether it's migration from Poland or other EU countries. I believe you do romanticise Germany in that respect, while you freely show contempt towards other EU countries.

Eurobarometer 2015 results (note poll was taken in spring 2015, before the refugee crisis got fully underway):

[Glen]

[Glen]

Overall, there doesn't really seem to be too much difference in attitudes towards immigration between Germany and Britain, although Germans are more positive about migration from other EU countries than Brits. Eurobarometer 2015 results (note poll was taken in spring 2015, before the refugee crisis got fully underway):

Self-reporting is the corner-stone of notoriously unreliable basic research. Self-reported results cannot be verified, which makes it misleading to compare the results from one region with the results from another. For example, in the case of classroom tests one culture will award 100% in a tick-box exercise, and another might follow a policy of never awarding 100% on the basis that perfection is unachievable. These types of learned cultural biases (and there are many) can influence each person's survey responses.

What can be ascertained from the images is that Germany delivers a higher opinion of EU immigrants than it does of non-EU immigrants. It is interesting that France has a significantly lower opinion of non-EU immigrants despite its connection to institutions such as the OIF/Francophonie and French Foreign Legion.

[Baff]

@ glen it's easy to spot Travellors.

One day you will open your bedroom curtain to this.

and then you will know.

The white house in the back right of the photo is mine.




and you will know they come from Ireland because of this.


And then you will get robbed. All day and night.

How will recognise the difference between travellers and Strawberry Fair punters?
Because A, I used to organise Strawberry Fair and know everyone personally and B, Cambridge residents and returning residents for the hippy fair are not mobs of Irish speaking thugs.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Self-reporting is the corner-stone of notoriously unreliable basic research. Self-reported results cannot be verified, which makes it misleading to compare the results from one region with the results from another. For example, in the case of classroom tests one culture will award 100% in a tick-box exercise, and another might follow a policy of never awarding 100% on the basis that perfection is unachievable. These types of learned cultural biases (and there are many) can influence each person's survey responses.

I don't know if I would call a comparison misleading. At a basic level if a person tells me that he/she feels positive about something, I would be willing to accept that their attitude is indeed positive no matter where that person comes from, although the reasons for a particular attitude can vary dramatically and just how positive or negative they are is not clear. Of course feelings are fickle and plenty of people can change their minds frequently - e.g. Germany felt considerably more positive about EU migrants in spring 2015 than in 2014 (+9%), while the UK was only slightly more positive.

Nevertheless, there is always a substantial part of the population which has concerns and/or has a negative attitude towards immigration, whether EU or non-EU. Anybody who has followed the discussion in Germany about the eastern EU enlargement can be in no doubt that negative sentiment exists and is not negligible, which makes Atlantis' claim that "nobody thinks anything about it" sound quite ridiculous, especially since immigration from Western Europe tends to be viewed more positively overall and there are often concerns about Eastern Europeans immigrating into the welfare state.

There is probably considerable variation and cultural differences within Germany and the UK too, e.g. Eastern Germans are quite likely more negative than Western Germans, but I still think that a comparison of people's attitudes within Germany or the UK can be worthwhile. Out of interest, are you thinking of anything specific that would preclude a comparison between Germans and Brits when it comes to these type of questions? Note, the question is as follows:

Please tell me whether each of the following statements evokes a positive or negative feeling for you. Immigration of people from other EU Member States.