[Decky]

You really are dense if you can't see how that is relevant.

[The Immortal Goon]

The sale of slave units is not irreconcilable with 'capitalism'. Similarly, feudalism was also a mode of capitalism.

Feudalism is capitalism, Greek slavery is capitalism, the Soviet Union was capitalism. Interesting. So what do you call the economic structure that the EU and Unted States use, since you've redefined "capitalism," into something utterly without meaning?

And I hope the next time someone goes into the terrors of capitalism, you pipe up with the Crusades as an example of what capitalism does to a society!

[The Sabbaticus]

State entities are subject to private law when commercial interactions are conducted. Slaves are private property. Private ownership wasn't precluded in a feudalist structure. Crusades are irrelevant, terrors of capitalism is your shtick.

[noemon]

Slaves are private property.

And subject to capital gains tax as well.

I am also of the opinion that capitalism is ancient and I think that marxists believe that their conflation of industrialism with capitalism which is a fringe idea in economic history should be taken as mainstream when it is nothing but.

Also:

Trade in ancient Greece was free: the state controlled only the supply of grain. In Athens, following the first meeting of the new Prytaneis, trade regulations were reviewed, with a specialized committee overseeing the trade in wheat, flour, and bread.

Direct taxation was not well-developed in ancient Greece. The eisphorá (εἰσφορά) was a tax on the wealth of the very rich, but it was levied only when needed — usually in times of war. Large fortunes were also subject to liturgies which was the support of public works. Liturgies could consist of, for instance, the maintenance of a trireme, a chorus during a theatre festival, or a gymnasium. In some cases, the prestige of the undertaking could attract volunteers (analogous in modern terminology to endowment, sponsorship, or donation). Such was the case for the choragus, who organized and financed choruses for a drama festival. In other instances, like the burden of outfitting and commanding a trireme, the liturgy functioned more like a mandatory donation (what we would today call a one-time tax). In some cities, like Miletus and Teos, heavy taxation was imposed on citizens.

On the other hand, indirect taxes were quite important. Taxes were levied on houses, slaves, herds and flocks, wines, and hay, among other things. The right to collect many of these taxes was often transferred to publicans, or telônai (τελῶναι). However, this was not true of all cities. Thasos' gold mines and Athens' taxes on business allowed them to eliminate these indirect taxes. Dependent groups such as the Penestae of Thessaly and the Helots of Sparta were taxed by the city-states to which they were subject.

Loans:

The growth of trade in Greece led to the development of financial techniques. Most merchants, lacking sufficient cash assets, resorted to borrowing to finance all or part of their expeditions. A typical loan for a large venture in 4th century BC Athens, was generally a large sum of cash (usually less than 2,000 drachmas), lent for a short time (the length of the voyage, a matter of several weeks or months), at a high rate of interest (often 12% but reaching levels as high as 100%). The terms of the contract were always laid out in writing, differing from loans between friends (eranoi). The lender bore all the risks of the journey, in exchange for which the borrower committed his cargo and his entire fleet, which were precautionarily seized upon their arrival at the port of Piraeus.

Social Class and Political Life:

The upper class in Athens was the Pentacosiomedimni, or the 500 measures providers. The Pentacosiomedimni were the richest group in the city, with their lands that produced 500 measures of either fruits, grains, wine or olive oil per year. This class had the greatest political power in the city. A member of the Pentacosiomedimni could serve on the supreme council of state: the Areopagus. Militarily, only a member of this class could be elected as one of the ten strategoi, or generals. Also, only one of the Pentacosiomedimni could be selected to be a captain of one of the 300 Athenian Navy triremes and would also be responsible for the maintenance of the ship and its crew. This particular military duty was so expensive that the selected man would be relieved of all other civic responsibility and other taxes for at least a year. This class would also serve as a cavalryman, or hippias, and in some cases, such as Pericles, even “went hoplite” by fighting as a heavy infantryman or hoplite.

The next richest class was the Hippada Teluntes, or horse breeders, sometimes called the Knights. This class had enough income to support a horse, or at least 300 measures of agricultural goods per year. Politically, they could also serve on the Areopagus, like the Pentacosiomedimni, but could not be selected as a general. Militarily, this class served as cavalrymen, or hippias, or as hoplite infantry, if they wanted.

The next class was the Zeugitai, or yoked men. The Zeugitai had to have at least 200 measures of agricultural produce per year and could afford a yoke of oxen to plow their fields. This group had their own governmental body, the Council of the 400. This body had veto power over the decisions of the aristocratic council of state, much like a lower house in a two house legislature. The Zeugitai were the hoplite class. They provided their own heavy shield and armor and fought in the ranks of the phalanx. The name ‘yoked men’ name could also come from their military duty of hoplites, as they were ‘yoked together’ in the phalanx.

The last citizen class was the Thetes, which produced below 200 measures of goods per year and were usually craftsmen or day laborers. Civically, the Thetes were forbidden from holding any political office. However, they could sit in the Popular Assembly, which could discuss and decide only on certain internal issues. Further, they could elect local officials, but not serve as these officials, and they served on the juries for any public trials. Militarily, the Thetes served as light infantry, since they could not afford to buy the hoplite panoply. They were the slingers, archers and javelin men. They also served as rowers in the Athenian navy.

A special note on Metics: They were generally urban tradesmen or traders. Some of them became wealthy. In the extreme circumstances of the Peloponnesian War, Metics were allowed to buy the hoplite weapons and armor and to serve guarding the walls of Athens.

Sources:

Plutarch, Lives of Noble Grecians and Romans: Solon.

G. E. M. De Ste. Croix, Athenian Democratic Origins and Other Essays (Oxford; Oxford University Press, 2004).

Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War

[The Immortal Goon]

So "trade" is now "capitalism?"

And, incidentally, Adam Smith and every economist after him is now apparently a fringe Marxist.

This thread keeps delivering.

[noemon]

Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3]

How does the economy of ancient Athens not satisfy these criteria?

[The Immortal Goon]

Because the actual production was done by slaves.

This was, of course, in the main, there were also some classes of people that got paid—but this was in the same way that capitalism had slavery but the actual production of the vast majority of things in France, the UK, Germany, the US, and other places was based upon capital.

[noemon]

Slaves were human capital and privately owned subject to corporate taxes.

[Heisenberg]

That's not the scenario we're talking about. We're talking about a group of people daily taking a pill as a prophylactic for when they might have sex. No one has a problem with your scenario.

Granted, but it doesn't take much to extrapolate. If the spread of HIV is reduced, for example with PrEP, the number of people who can be accidentally infected - as in my scenario - is also reduced. PrEP isn't only used by people before sex - it's also used by intravenous drug users (the sort who are more likely to end up infecting an "innocent" person, as it were).

[snapdragon]

In answer to the OP, yes, it does seem like a lot of money which is why I can't see it being provided on demand

From the BBC source:


NHS England has already announced it will appeal against the ruling - and even if that goes against health bosses it is not a given that Prep will be considered effective enough to warrant NHS funding.
If the Court of Appeal uphold the ruling NHS bosses would then assess Prep's cost-effectiveness alongside the merits of other treatments the NHS is being asked to provide.

and at the end:

Meanwhile Dr Jonathan Fielden of NHS England, told the BBC: "Prep, subject to the appeal, will seen and considered alongside 13 other treatments including treatments for children with cystic fibrosis, for prosthetic limbs and certain types of auditory implants for deafness."

Very clever of Dr Fielden to use the needs of sick children and the disabled to halt all arguments, any why not?

[The Immortal Goon]

Slaves were human capital and privately owned subject to corporate taxes.

Sure. It's very easy to try and simplify these things and try to conceptualize ancient Greece (or anything else) as we understand things today. But there was no fiat money in ancient Greece. There were precious metals that had been stamped, but it was not valueless paper or strings of 1s and 0s that was agreed to represent labour production that was then invested (remember, the investment doesn't physically exist with fiat capital) into projects elsewhere, usually abroad, to pay for labour that creates a surplus that—again—is not tangible outside of a ledger that is then translated into fiat capital that is then exchanged for a material good. The Ancient Greeks would be absolutely bewildered by attempting to explain the concept of cash, let alone bank-cards to them.

Their experience with the world was through a direct exchange and manufacture of material goods.

And the Greek world was a little more sophisticated in some respects than the other cultures around it in that they had systems of loans, but it went no further. There was no fiat currency, and the exchange of labour and production was done in-house. It was a society where slavery instead of finance capital and fiat banking regulations, made everything.

This may not clear anything up but...

If you were an olive farmer today, you'd hire a hand. You would use capital in exchange for the labour of the hand. The capital is why the hand is doing it, the capital is what you hope to make, and this has its own set of complications and whatnot, not the least of which being that you are buying the labour, and the hand himself can go fuck himself and sleep in a ditch at night for all you care so long as he does the work.

If you were an olive farmer in ancient Athens, you would have a slave work alongside your family. The slave would, more than likely, have either been a prisoner of war or perhaps in debt slavery. The slave would live with you, and you'd welcome the slave with fruits and nuts. There may have been a limited slave market, but slavery was based upon social status and not finance that would not exist for hundreds of years.

If you look at slavery in capitalism, it becomes a question of supply and demand instead of a question of having a prisoner of war come live with your family. The relations here are different because the mode of production is different. Slave ships would lose sometimes 50% of the "cargo" in transportation because, unlike slavery in Greece, the slave represented a financial currency that did not retain beyond that. It's also why the Americans pretty much designated blacks as slaves as a race, whereas Greeks and Romans did not have racial slavery (they didn't translate the value of the slave into fiat finances and didn't need a nearly unlimited source of slaves to translate into it).

I'm trying to do this without wall-of-texting or getting especially jargon-y. I'm not well satisfied, but I need to get to work and this deserved a response.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Granted, but it doesn't take much to extrapolate. If the spread of HIV is reduced, for example with PrEP, the number of people who can be accidentally infected - as in my scenario - is also reduced. PrEP isn't only used by people before sex - it's also used by intravenous drug users (the sort who are more likely to end up infecting an "innocent" person, as it were).

The main problem is that this medication must be taken regularly to be effective and adherence in drug users can be expected to be low. I remember reading that people in this group often don't even complete the HBV vaccine schedule.

From the manufacturer:

Uninfected individuals must strictly adhere to their dosing schedule because the effectiveness of TRUVADA [PreP] in reducing the risk of acquiring HIV-1 is strongly correlated with adherence.