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#14712702
@ Beren, Doomhammer
Beren wrote:Normal, or rather classic market economy is a plutocracy indeed.

Doomhammer wrote:With the consolidation of power by the plutocratic classes, the US has essentially created a materialist theocracy ... The real problem is that the plutocrats in US have extended their influence elsewhere

At first I was astonished by Beren's assertion, but after some meditation I realized that he is not alone. The German sociologist Heiner Ganssmann states, in his book Oekonomie des Sozialstaats, that the state consists of three elements: the democracy (representatives), the plutocracy (civil society), and the autocracy (administration). However, since there is a continuous struggle for power between the three elements, none of them ever occurs in its pure form. In this regard your and Ganssmanns opinions differ. To be fair, Ganssmann does complain that recently the plutocracy is gaining terrain. I appreciate his model, although I deny that the civil society is a plutocracy. For she includes such diverse organizations as the labour unions, sports clubs, associations for allotment gardening, musical societies, etcetera. It may indeed be true that the civil society is prospering. But that is actually a desirable development, since it implies the participation of people.
#14712707
@ Doomhammer
Doomhammer wrote:This is a society so engrossed in itself, so convinced of its superiority that it cannot accept change. Neither its raison d'etre, nor its means, is amenable to critique.

This reminds me of the critical theory of the philosophical School of Frankfurt, and notably the works of Herbert Marcuse. He portrayed the modern citizen as a one dimensional man, who is completely assimilated and unable to obtain a self-assuredness. The true human desires are sublimed into consumerism. The critical theory is attractive for the radical left, because she is a call to criticize everything. Moreover, since she is just a story, she can never be refuted. Either you are a believer, or not. I have stopped studying the works of the critical theorists already a decade ago, since they are not credible, and do not convince me. Besides, it is inapt for making policy recommendations.
Doomhammer wrote:The situation is thus: you have two political parties who are more or less the same. Apart from some radical thinkers, they differ only on more cosmetic issues.

Obviously, this is not true. Indeed, neither party wants to overturn the system, and by the way, neither do the common people. But the devil is in the detail. Think for instance about health care.
Doomhammer wrote:Either US will overextend and lose its empire, there will be widespread societal backlash, or there will be some kind of environmental disaster, or a combination of these.

A sound policy must preferably be cumulative. Unfortunately, the radical left has a sinister desire to smash the system. When they lack the power, they invent tendencies, which must lead to an apocalypse. This approach was perfected in the former Soviet union, and became a source of humour there. For instance, a Leninist teacher tells: "America is in decay. The unemployment is a disaster, people are hungry, and the blacks are murdered. On the other hand, the Soviet Union prospers, and she will soon overtake America".
Doomhammer wrote:In most of the developing world, and even to an extent in Europe, it is possible to at least envision alternative orders and form a political platform, however irrelevant.

I can think of two alternatives, indeed irrelevant. One is democratic socialism, which failed definitely in the 80s. The Third way could be a new social-democratical paradigm, but it is evidently not socialism. In fact it is affiliated to the policy of the American New Democrats. The other alternative is the paradigm of the international movement against globalization, such as the social fora, a decade ago. Her main ideologists are perhaps Hardt and Negri, with their empire-and-multitude philosophy. However, imho they advocate simply anarchism, and that is not a serious option. Other protagonists (which I have not read) are Chomsky, Wallerstein, and Bello. Recently I tried to read a book of David Harvey, but I found it utterly boring, and did not finish it (I hope that this remark is not offensive).

It is easy to criticize the present system. However, it is much more difficult to invent a better one. For instance, a century ago socialism seemed a brilliant idea, at least on paper. Unfortunately, such theoretical alternatives have their own disadvantages, and these surface only after the implementation of the new system. Thus the praised socialism turned out to be a practical disaster, which has hurt the lives of generations. Even the democratic socialism in western Europe was a continuous source of unacceptable problems.
#14712711
@ Rugoz
Rugoz wrote:I'm not an expert on American history but to say there was no dynamic change is a bit silly. New Deal, Reaganomics, the civil rights movement, etc. We also see some developments currently which could lead to major changes further down the road (such as the American youth not being particularly fond of capitalism).

I would agree though that the political system in the US is pretty much fixed. I am not aware of any serious attempt to change the status quo, while in Europe there are numerous populist parties which go beyond "let's change policies" to "let's change the system". Whether they will actually do that when they are in power is another question.

You did not mention the Great Society of Johnson and the New Convenant of Clinton. A far-reaching reform was the restriction of trust formation at the end of the nineteenth century. However, such objections will not convince the radical left, since it can always be argued that such reforms take place within the system. In fact, all ideologies are simply stories, which can not be refuted. At best their credibility can be scrutinized. Here the radical left does not perform well. According to Marx the Manchester capitalism would be ruined by its crises. According to Uljanov (Lenin) the state capitalism and imperialism would cause eternal wars. Otto Bauer (an Austromarxist) stated that fascism is the last phase of capitalism, and could only be eliminated by the dictature of the proletariat.

It is true that the political sphere in Europe still houses parties, that strive for a revolution in some form. They are hardly an asset, but the unfortunate inheritance of a revolutionary past. This inheritance is partly based on socialist ideologies, which have failed miserably. America had the good fortune, that socialism was never popular. Note that political parties wich aim to overturn the system are nearly always rather primitive. In fact it is desirable that the system develops in a cumulative manner. For the effects of reforms are notoriously unpredicable, and must be checked carefully in practice. Feed-back and adjustment are crucial.

Of course, revolutions are a blessing for comedians. A Russian cosmonaut returns from Mars. The party leader asks him, if life is possible on Mars. The cosmonaut replies: "Neither on Mars". Another one: Question: "Can you build up socialism within a single country?" Answer: "Yes you can. But you must live in another".
#14712791
TheRedBaron wrote:It is true that the political sphere in Europe still houses parties, that strive for a revolution in some form. They are hardly an asset, but the unfortunate inheritance of a revolutionary past.


No I don't mean revolution. I don't know of any relevant political party advocating a revolution of some sort. I mean changes to the existing system. For example, in the UK there was a referendum back in 2011 on replacing FPTP with alternative vote. In France lawmakers got new powers to impeach the president in 2014. Italians will vote on an overhaul of the constitution in 2016. Various populist parties in Europe want to introduce direct democratic elements.

Now of course on the state-level in the US there are probably changes as well, I'm just no aware of them. It seems on a federal level though the system is pretty much fixed.

TheRedBaron wrote:Note that political parties wich aim to overturn the system are nearly always rather primitive. In fact it is desirable that the system develops in a cumulative manner.


Parties which cannot achieve their political goals within the existing system will attempt to overthrow it. That's kind of obvious and doesn't make them "primitive".
#14713162
@ Rugoz
Rugoz wrote:Parties which cannot achieve their political goals within the existing system will attempt to overthrow it. That's kind of obvious and doesn't make them "primitive".

I agree. Gandhi was also a radical. However, notably in a democracy the majority is usually in the right. For she disposes of the best knowledge, insights, talents and experience. Small minorities, and especially sects, lack the expertise to make a fair judgement. They have a twisted conception of human kind. It is true that sometimes the interests of minorities are disregarded. Nonetheless, in a liberal democracy the political leaders tend to take into account even the interests of minorities, because the prefer to appease them. Or they may even believe firmly that this is the just thing to do.
#14713173
TheRedBaron wrote:... in a democracy the majority is usually in the right. For she disposes of the best knowledge, insights, talents and experience. Small minorities, and especially sects, lack the expertise to make a fair judgement.

Nine out of ten participants enjoy gang bangs.

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Are you saying that the "girl" usually lacks the expertise to make a fair judgment, RedB? Her "no" is disqualified because of her lack of expertise?

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