[mikema63]

They look like spooky ghosts!

Worse, they look like foreign ghosts!!

[quetzalcoatl]

It's a bathing suit. Get over it.

...The killing of indigenous poeple is ongoing, as is the destrcution of indigenous cultures. And a disturbingly high number of black men in the US will have to work in unpaid and forced labour during their lives...

Within the worldview of liberalism, this is the obvious and appropriate response. A couple of points should be noted, however: the annihilation of native cultures and slavery were integral features of liberalism, and mass European immigration was its enabling process.

The existence of massive numbers of European immigrants was sufficient in itself to destroy native societies in the Americas (and Africa). Deliberate genocide, relocation, and cultural suppression sped up the process, to be sure - but the mere existence of a hegemonic European state in North America spelled inevitable doom for these peoples. Visionary native leaders foresaw this process and resisted as best they could.

European culture was totalitarian, and swept everything in its path. Contemporary Islam is very much a totalitarian ideology - every bit as much as the European imperialism that swept the Americas. This is a cognitive bridge too far for Western liberalism. The fact that Islam is not monolithic is as irrelevant as the many internecine wars among the Europeans

It does not require every Muslim to be evil for this totalitarian sweep, no more than it required every European farmer to be evil when they settled on traditional native lands. Cultural imperialism does not require navies or legions of soldiers (although these can help). It requires numbers. Numbers and the settler mentality. The PAC dictum "one settler, one bullet" is harsh, but logical.

I don't subscribe to the superiority of European liberalism, so I raise no objection to Europe's path.

[Atlantis]

They look like spooky ghosts!

Worse, they look like foreign ghosts!!

Some spooky foreign ghosts:







For Mike they have to expose flesh, the more the better.

[mikema63]

Beautiful, when will foreigners come to understand that real beauty is about maximizing yourself in all possible ways?

[Pants-of-dog]

@quetzalcoatl,

Well, then it is a good thing that the number of Muslims emigrating to Europe is nowhere near the number of Europeans that migrated to the Americas during the colonial era.

And that the Muslims are not spreading smallpox and other diseases.

Or destroying and replacing local governance systems.

Or intentionally trying to eradicate local cultures for the purposes of enriching themselves.

Or otherwise doing any of the things that we call colonialism.

Unless we define burkinis as colonialism.

[Atlantis]

Beautiful, when will foreigners come to understand that real beauty is about maximizing yourself in all possible ways?

Do you mean maximizing body mass or maximizing the surface area of flesh to be exposed?

[Frollein]

Since it's a symbol of patriarchy, it's as beautiful as a mutilated vulva.

Spoiler: show

I notice that only men applaud it.

[mikema63]

Both, of course, the ideal is to be extremely voluminous and dense simultaneously.

Thank god I wasn't at work frollein, please put that in NSFW tags.

[quetzalcoatl]

@quetzalcoatl,

Well, then it is a good thing that the number of Muslims emigrating to Europe is nowhere near the number of Europeans that migrated to the Americas during the colonial era.

And that the Muslims are not spreading smallpox and other diseases.

Or destroying and replacing local governance systems.

Or intentionally trying to eradicate local cultures for the purposes of enriching themselves.

Or otherwise doing any of the things that we call colonialism.

Unless we define burkinis as colonialism.

Well, I certainly agree with all of that, except for the bolded statement. My only comment is that no evil intention need be hypothesized (although a certain number of evildoers will always be present). It only requires time and numbers.

The differences you cite are exclusively a product of the relative power difference in each case. Native cultures were relatively less well-armed and thinly populated. Simply denying them available habitat was enough to defeat them. Islamic settlers are less-well armed, so that the outcome does remain in doubt.

The numbers are an interesting story. Islamic immigration into Europe is entirely a result of the political/economic chaos caused by US/European foreign policy. The numbers are insufficient to definitively destroy European liberalism, but enough to wreck their economies over the medium term. This reflects the incoherence of liberalism, and its alienation from its own culture.

[Atlantis]

At least the controversy is good for business.

Ban boosts burkini sales 'by 200%

The Australian woman credited with creating the burkini says bans on the full-bodied Islamic swimsuit in France have boosted sales.

The clothing - which combines "burqa" with "bikini" - leaves only the face, hands and feet on show.
Aheda Zanetti, who claims the trademark on the name burkini and burqini, said online sales were up by 200%

The 48-year-old Sydney woman said the swimsuits represented freedom and healthy living - not oppression.
[...]
Ms Zanetti said the original intention behind the garment was to allow Muslim women to participate in the Australian beach lifestyle.

"I wanted my girls to grow up to have that freedom of choice," she said.
"I don't care if they want to have a bikini. It's their choice.
[...]
"No man in this entire world can tell us what to wear or what not to wear."

[jessupjonesjnr87]

It's no more a symbol of patriarchy than high-heels and make-up

[Frollein]

[Pants-of-dog]

Well, I certainly agree with all of that, except for the bolded statement. My only comment is that no evil intention need be hypothesized (although a certain number of evildoers will always be present). It only requires time and numbers.

The differences you cite are exclusively a product of the relative power difference in each case. Native cultures were relatively less well-armed and thinly populated. Simply denying them available habitat was enough to defeat them. Islamic settlers are less-well armed, so that the outcome does remain in doubt.

The numbers are an interesting story. Islamic immigration into Europe is entirely a result of the political/economic chaos caused by US/European foreign policy. The numbers are insufficient to definitively destroy European liberalism, but enough to wreck their economies over the medium term. This reflects the incoherence of liberalism, and its alienation from its own culture.

My point is that the two situations are only similar in one way: migration has something to do with it. In every other way, they are different.

Also, allowing women the choice of bathing suits has no impact on the destruction of local governance systems.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I wish I didn't have to read about this nonsense.

Talk about deflection from what actually matters.

[quetzalcoatl]

My point is that the two situations are only similar in one way: migration has something to do with it. In every other way, they are different.

Also, allowing women the choice of bathing suits has no impact on the destruction of local governance systems.

I was making a broader observation. I have no concern or interest in burkinis. Unlike some other critics of liberalism, I do not root for beleaguered European whites. Their 'plight' interests me only in the sense it affirms that populations generally get the government they deserve.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

It's a non-story because the laws were a non-starter anyway.

Also, Muslim women are really cute. I have some in my classes. They don't seem to care about wearing their hijabs and whatnot.

I think the Muslim religion needs reform but I don't think forcing the reforms on them and making them a persecuted class is going to help.

[Rich]

Islamic immigration into Europe is entirely a result of the political/economic chaos caused by US/European foreign policy.

Really? Funny because Muslims have been killing each other, warring with each other and creating chaos and destruction since there have been Muslims. Islam created the backward societies that are incapable of controlling their population growth or of creating prosperity for their citizens.

The Barbary slavers which went on into the nineteenth century were the last straw. Its no good Muslims complaining that they got colonised. As far as I'm concerned the Muslims have forfeited all rights to sovereignty. Those rights should only be returned when Muslims have proved themselves responsible enough to merit them. Please note this is not an issue of petty moralism, its a simple matter of not letting your inhabitants commit acts of war against powerful neighbours. Germany was denied the right to unify, was denied the right to full sovereignty for 45 years and that was for one measly mistake, letting the Nazis take power. The Muslim crimes have been going on for 1400 years.

As far as I'm concerned they'll be no apology to Muslims, we have a perfect right to intervene in Muslim countries when ever we consider it right to do so. Trying to push the blame for the total bankruptcy of Islamic civilisation on to Europeans is absurd.

[quetzalcoatl]

Really? Funny because Muslims have been killing each other, warring with each other and creating chaos and destruction since there have been Muslims. Islam created the backward societies that are incapable of controlling their population growth or of creating prosperity for their citizens.

The Barbary slavers which went on into the nineteenth century were the last straw. Its no good Muslims complaining that they got colonised. As far as I'm concerned the Muslims have forfeited all rights to sovereignty. Those rights should only be returned when Muslims have proved themselves responsible enough to merit them. Please note this is not an issue of petty moralism, its a simple matter of not letting your inhabitants commit acts of war against powerful neighbours. Germany was denied the right to unify, was denied the right to full sovereignty for 45 years and that was for one measly mistake, letting the Nazis take power. The Muslim crimes have been going on for 1400 years.

As far as I'm concerned they'll be no apology to Muslims, we have a perfect right to intervene in Muslim countries when ever we consider it right to do so. Trying to push the blame for the total bankruptcy of Islamic civilisation on to Europeans is absurd.

Why are you talking of rights, bankruptcies, and apologies, while in the same breath denying your petty moralism? Is is to convince yourself? Certainly no one else.

The proximate cause of the current immigration crisis in Europe is not Islam at all. In fact, the current immigration crisis is entirely unrelated to Islam. Yes, Islam will continue to be Islam, just as it always has. It will continue to be Islam when it is transported to Europe. But nothing in the nature of Islam has changed in the post war period that would create an immigration crisis in Europe, where previously there was none.

What has changed is that stable autocratic regimes have been continuously and effectively subverted. As Trump noted about Saddam, these were not nice guys. But the vacuum created by continuous and ill-thought-out intervention allowed a committed and organized faction of Islamists to rise to rise to power. The people fleeing for their lives to Europe were not doing so under Ghadaffi, Saddam, et al.

The critique of the West is not that they are interventionist. It is that they are incompetent and hypocritical. They blithely destroy the stability of the region, but lack the will to deal forcefully with the resultant breakdown.

[Atlantis]

The French have really scored a home goal with this. The whole world is making fun of them, even their own artists:

French artists battle burkini ban

[Godstud]

Ban this!

and this!!


It's horrible and offensive to everyone! It's worse than burkinis!