[Political Interest]

Yes, there is, if you continually get bad immigrants from there. Determining what a bad immigrant, however, is another problem.

That, at least, is not discriminating against people based on religion, race, etc.

Of course but why is there a need for so much immigration?

Westerners are obsessed with having their doors wide open to the world. It is very strange.

[mikema63]

We live in a capitalist society, as I'm sure you know PI.

Capitalism will always break down barriers to labor and capital. That isn't just limited to the political forces in our country pushing for it. It becomes part of the culture. The rhetoric used to push for it gets absorbed by the people and becomes, informs, and reinforces their values of multi-culturalism and their belief that people have a fundamental right to immigrate/emigrate.

This isn't a comment about whether any of this is right or wrong, I think ultimately all of our values are just a product of the society and culture we live in. I happen to think that our cultures anti-racism, universalism, humanism, and multi-culturalism are positive developments driven by capitalism.

[layman]

Even a statement of 'modesty' doesn't have to relate to Islam, or do you think that non-Muslims have to be immodest?

So it is pure coincidence that Islam demands modesty from women and they ‘choose’ to wear this garment?

I already explained the case of my grandmother, who was born in the 19th century and wore a headscarf all her live as part of her traditional wear, just like millions of other protestant farm women throughout the North of Europe. She would have felt naked going out without the headscarf. Therefore, I can well understand that people from traditional societies (like ours still was not so long ago) who are not used to exposing their body would rather wear a burkini than a bikini, even if they don't feel any particular affinity towards religion.

Yes and I said a case where a british celebrity wore one likely because she knew cameras were about. She was not in the least influenced by religion.

Exceptions do not make the rule though. Clearly religion or latent religious feelings influence levels of modesty.

There is no debate as to whether Islam demands modesty and that the majority of Islamic cultures have decided to impose this on women disproportionately. This simply isn’t debatable but blatant fact. Just look at the pictures on the beaches with the men wearing what the fuck they want while the women swelter in the background.

And yes of course chritianity was just as unequal in its demands of women in the past. This isn’t the case today though as they have been tamed.

There is not really any need to discriminate by country. If you reduce immigration to a certain rate then you can take in any immigrants from any part of the world without any problems. The main issue is simply the scale of the immigration that Europe has been experiencing since the 1950s.

There is no need to put caps on places that are culturally and economically similar to ourselves. French or german migration will never be a problem.

Limited caps like Germany put on eastern Europe are useful in the short term while they catch up.

Culture gaps cause integration problems over multiple generations and so need to be taken into account as well.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

We live in a capitalist society, as I'm sure you know PI.

Capitalism will always break down barriers to labor and capital. That isn't just limited to the political forces in our country pushing for it. It becomes part of the culture. The rhetoric used to push for it gets absorbed by the people and becomes, informs, and reinforces their values of multi-culturalism and their belief that people have a fundamental right to immigrate/emigrate.

This isn't a comment about whether any of this is right or wrong, I think ultimately all of our values are just a product of the society and culture we live in. I happen to think that our cultures anti-racism, universalism, humanism, and multi-culturalism are positive developments driven by capitalism.

I'm afraid brexit blew all that out of the water, the media and political class may have a societal death wish but not all the public have lost their minds yet and can see the insanity of creating an segregated ethnic underclass.

The point is how best to covert such people to true Frenchmen and women.

It's too late for that now, the dam has already burst in France and any notion of a true French man or woman can be forgotten about.

[Pants-of-dog]

Or (and this is going to sound like crazy talk), maybe French people could get less uptight about the fact that people who are not French also live in France.

If they need an example of how to do this, they can look at the people who live with French people in their country and do not make a big deal about it.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Not possible with the insane level of past and current immigration rates.

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually, it is. Other countries have higher rates of immigration and do not make a big deal about it. Are the French incapable of doing the same thing?

[jessupjonesjnr87]

What countries? I'm not doubting you, just wondering?

[Pants-of-dog]

Canada comes to mind, not only because of high rates of immgration, but also because of the huge numbers of French migrants we welcome each year.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Yes but Canada is a relatively new country built on immigration that shares many cultural values with the French, it also has a massive land mass and access to vast resources, also I think Canada is actually below France in terms of immigration.

I've said it before and now I'm saying it again, strict immigration laws are not racist, creating a cultural underclass to live in ghettoised enclaves and work the jobs we don't want for minimum wage is.

[Decky]

Canada is a fake country anyway. No one but the natives have a culture worth protecting. The French feel that they do.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes but Canada is a relatively new country built on immigration that shares many cultural values with the French, it also has a massive land mass and access to vast resources, also I think Canada is actually below France in terms of immigration.

The fact that it is a relatively new country has no relevance. Germany did not exist as a country until after Canada did. Are we now going to argue that Germany has been a multicultural paradise since then because of that?

The vast majority of immigrants to Canada are from countries that share far less cultural values than France, such as India. There is no problem there. According to your logic, they should be.

It does have a huge land mass. Most of it is not used at all, and most Canadians live in a thin strip by the US border.

If you think that France has more immigrants than Canada, you are wrong.

I've said it before and now I'm saying it again, strict immigration laws are not racist, creating a cultural underclass to live in ghettoised enclaves and work the jobs we don't want for minimum wage is.

The burkini ban was pretty clearly Islamophobic.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

What does the burkini ban have to do with strict immigration laws?

Both the French natives and Islamic immigrants have failed to integrate with each other, something we have seen repeated across the globe including Canada.

As Decky has already alluded to Canada is a unique situation where the true culture of the region has already been obliterated and continues to be humiliated to this day. Ask the Canadian natives how successful integration has been there.

Half of the first nation population live below the poverty line in Canada.

[Pants-of-dog]

What does the burkini ban have to do with strict immigration laws?

Is that a serious question?

Both the French natives and Islamic immigrants have failed to integrate with each other, something we have seen repeated across the globe including Canada.

What do you mean by "failed to integrate"?

As Decky has already alluded to Canada is a unique situation where the true culture of the region has already been obliterated and continues to be humiliated to this day. Ask the Canadian natives how successful integration has been there.

Half of the first nation population live below the poverty line in Canada.

Which is the true culture that you are discussing? Also, if something has already been obliterated, it is logically impossible that it continues to be humiliated to this day.

I notice you have ignored my actual point about sustainable levels of immigration. Now, seeing as how Canada accepts more immigrants that France, and from countries that are more different to Canada than France's former colonies are to France, we can safely say that French people will be fine and just need to stop over-reacting.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

How about addressing the plight of the first nation peoples who have been swept under the carpet by Canadian authorities or are you also going to sweep them under the carpet. Integration is only a success when it includes all cultures and peoples.

And yes it is a serious question, what does the Burkini ban have to do with strict immigration laws, maybe I should say immigration policies. Is that what is leading to the confusion?

[Pants-of-dog]

How about addressing the plight of the first nation peoples who have been swept under the carpet by Canadian authorities or are you also going to sweep them under the carpet. Integration is only a success when it includes all cultures and peoples.

Your petty moralism about an unrelated topic is not an argument.

If you wanted to make an intelligent comment about indigenous people in Canada, do so in another thread. This one is about burkinis.

And yes it is a serious question, what does the Burkini ban have to do with strict immigration laws, maybe I should say immigration policies. Is that what is leading to the confusion?

Hey, if you think strict immigration laws have nothing to do with the topic, then I am happy to drop that subject as well.

Now, snce we have agreed that France is not dealing with dangerously high levels of immgration, the reason for French over-reaction to this non-issue must be something else.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

The plight of Canada's native population is not petty moralising and it was you who brought Canada into the discussion as an example of successful integration amongst differing ethnicities and cultures which going by the experience of the indigenous populations it's not a relevant one.

And no we do not agree, my position that France is in fact being exposed to dangerously high levels of immigration remains unchanged.

This issue with the burkini is unacceptable and quite frankly disturbing but it is just one of the many side effects resulting from insane immigration policies.

[Pants-of-dog]

The plight of Canada's native population is not petty moralising and it was you who brought Canada into the discussion as an example of successful integration amongst differing ethnicities and cultures which going by the experience of the indigenous populations it's not a relevant example.

Yeah, it is petty moralism because you do not actually care about the issues affecting indigenous people. You are just acting offended about this in order to try and score points in the debate. The reason why I know that you do not actually care about these issues is because you have shown almost no real knowledge about these issues, and have even made mistakes in this thread.

Now, do you know the difference between immigration and colonialism?

And no we do not agree, my position that France is in fact being exposed to dangerously high levels of immigration remains unchanged.

Okay. Please note that I have explained why France is dealing with lower levels of immigration than other Western nations.

This issue with the burkini is unacceptable and quite frankly disturbing but it is just one of the many side effects resulting from insane immigration policies.

Please explain how the burkini ban is caused by immigration policy. Thanks.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Yeah, it is petty moralism because you do not actually care about the issues affecting indigenous people. You are just acting offended about this in order to try and score points in the debate. The reason why I know that you do not actually care about these issues is because you have shown almost no real knowledge about these issues, and have even made mistakes in this thread.

Now, do you know the difference between immigration and colonialism?

I'm not an expert on the indigenous peoples of this planet but that doesn't mean I can't be concerned for their cause. Whether it be the first nation peoples of Canada or greater North America, the Aboriginals in Australia or the long suffered Irish, I am entitled to hold concern for a cause without showing in depth knowledge of every aspect.

However saying that, I am not completely ignorant to the situation in Canada which is absolutely atrocious. And yes there is a difference between immigration and colonialism but many of the key issues that face society in modern times relating to the two issues are similar such as integration and discrimination.

Okay. Please note that I have explained why France is dealing with lower levels of immigration than other Western nations.

Other western nations such as Australia, America, Russia and the UK which are currently going through similar problems with incarceration rates criminality and poverty amongst immigrant populations.

quote]Please explain how the burkini ban is caused by immigration policy. Thanks.[/quote]
It's a freakish reaction that seems to go against all logic surely a reflection of troubling times brought about by an untenable situation. Open borders is lunacy.

Also I would like you to address the situation in Canada relating to the indigenous peoples there. If Canada is so capable of introducing immigrants amongst its society then why can't they achieve the same levels of success with the indigenous people.

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm not an expert on the indigenous peoples of this planet but that doesn't mean I can't be concerned for their cause. Whether it be the first nation peoples of Canada or greater North America, the Aboriginals in Australia or the long suffered Irish, I am entitled to hold concern for a cause without showing in depth knowledge of every aspect.

Yeah, sure.

However saying that, I am not completely ignorant to the situation in Canada which is absolutely atrocious. And yes there is a difference between immigration and colonialism but many of the key issues that face society in modern times relating to the two issues are similar such as integration and discrimination.

So you did not answer my question about the difference between colonialism and immigration.

Also, you did not define what you meant by "failure to integrate".

Other western nations such as Australia, America, Russia and the UK which are currently going through similar problems with incarceration rates criminality and poverty amongst immigrant populations.

That has nothing to do with your argument that France has too many immigrants.

It's a freakish reaction that seems to go against all logic surely a reflection of troubling times brought about by an untenable situation. Open borders is lunacy.

And now you have failed to explain the connection.

Also I would like you to address the situation in Canada relating to the indigenous peoples there. If Canada is so capable of introducing immigrants amongst its society then why can't they achieve the same levels of success with the indigenous people.

As soon as you understand the difference betwen immigration and colonialism, you will understand why Canada has no problems with immigrants and does have problems with the colonised population.