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Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be debated in this forum, but those of religious belief who specifically wish to avoid threads being derailed by atheist arguments might prefer to use the Spirituality forum.
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By Drlee
#14714115
Nonsense. It is all about winning with you. That much you have made obvious.

Because I think it is an interesting topic for discussion. Don't you?


You are not discussing religion. If you want to do that I am your man. You are doing something quite different from that. And it is sad that you do not understand that the rest of us know exactly what you are trying to do.
By Besoeker
#14714122
Drlee wrote:Nonsense. It is all about winning with you. That much you have made obvious.



You are not discussing religion. If you want to do that I am your man. You are doing something quite different from that. And it is sad that you do not understand that the rest of us know exactly what you are trying to do.

The title of the thread is god.
I'm not god. It isn't about me.
So, how about you stick to the topic and desist from personal comments?
By anasawad
#14714124
@Besoeker
I note your opinion.

Opinion ?
You're an electrical engineer, you think if the universe wasn't running in order and by a set rules, there will be electricity or technology or anything ?
If there was no order, and we assumed that the universe kept intact, there wont be any technology, there most likely not be any life.
Since this is all a result of the order in the universe. One that each part of it is perfectly in line with the rest.

God, if such existed and is omnipotent, could prevent starvation. But clearly does not.

Earth, at minimum estimates, could easily sustain 11 billion people without even reaching critical levels.
Currently, humanity produces enough food for around 10 billion people.
Not 7, 10 billion people. So no, god gave us more than enough food and resources in general.
We're just too stupid to use it well. You're in Britain now, here is a fun fact here.
The average person in Britain consumes as much as 40 of the average African in Africa.
If the food thrown away in the US alone each year was given as aid, there would be no starvation in the world at all.
See, not god, us. But ofcourse if you are so keen to it, yes god can finish starvation right now. Ofcourse that would require us to lose our free will and there wont be much point of this world then would it ?
User avatar
By jakell
#14714130
Drlee wrote:Besoeker is at war with himself. Not the religious. He is just not mature enough yet to understand that. He is attempting to win an argument with people who do not care what his opinions are. Starman has been trolling religious people for a long time. I am weary of his shallow arguments and just ignore him for the most part...


You are right about the trolling, it's slow and careful, but it is designed to close discussion to something dry and supremely minimal, ie a way to strangle the subject matter.

I notice that at some point a section has been created here where atheistic trolling is forbidden... it's encouraging that someone noticed that it is an issue.

"Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be discussed here or in The Agora. However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that. Political topics regarding religion belong in the Religion forum in the Political Issues section."
Last edited by jakell on 31 Aug 2016 09:24, edited 1 time in total.
By Besoeker
#14714131
anasawad wrote:@Besoeker

Opinion ?
You're an electrical engineer, you think if the universe wasn't running in order and by a set rules, there will be electricity or technology or anything ?
If there was no order, and we assumed that the universe kept intact, there wont be any technology, there most likely not be any life.
Since this is all a result of the order in the universe. One that each part of it is perfectly in line with the rest.

Random particle movements pervade particle physics. And you will no doubt have heard of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics.


anasawad wrote:Earth, at minimum estimates, could easily sustain 11 billion people without even reaching critical levels.
Currently, humanity produces enough food for around 10 billion people.
Not 7, 10 billion people. So no, god gave us more than enough food and resources in general.
We're just too stupid to use it well. You're in Britain now, here is a fun fact here.
The average person in Britain consumes as much as 40 of the average African in Africa.
If the food thrown away in the US alone each year was given as aid, there would be no starvation in the world at all.
See, not god, us. But ofcourse if you are so keen to it, yes god can finish starvation right now. Ofcourse that would require us to lose our free will and there wont be much point of this world then would it ?


The notion of free will and an omniscient creator is another of those apparent contradictions.
By anasawad
#14714180
Random particle movements pervade particle physics. And you will no doubt have heard of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics.


We sure thought that everything is random, but with time we're finding out that most things we used to think is random are actually following specific rules.
Same for subatomic particles, its not random, it has quite a lot of laws the define how and why it moves. However we're still expanding our knowledge on the subject.

'm not sure you are using Heisenberg uncertainty principle correctly, because it does not incline anything about randomness.
Even if you want to go further and put the second law of thermodynamics. That also does not incline anything of randomness in reality even though some people use it to describe such.


The notion of free will and an omniscient creator is another of those apparent contradictions.
Quick Reply
Reply


You brought this up several times, an answer has been given and then ignored by you in each and everytime. And you keep bringing it up.
I personally have given you several views of this philosophical principles in many aspects including a scientific one to show why both can be true and not contradictory.
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By Dagoth Ur
#14714181
If by not having freewill you mean that no one has autonomy over being subsumed by their self and its actions, then yes there is no free will. But you are who you are so whose will does that spring forth from?
User avatar
By Dagoth Ur
#14714183
If you don't have free will because you are basically a cog in some convoluted machine, why not? Like you being yourself is you being that cog.
By anasawad
#14714190
Aah, you're talking about the debate between determinism and free will if i recall correctly.

This actually relates mostly to what our perception of free will.
In a scientific aspect, this dogma can be overcame by flat spacetime theory. Though we still can not actually prove it but as in many other theories that we base on, its based on math and equations.
Philosophically speaking, to explain it as simple as i can and at best i can, we have free will in our actions if we took each action and each moment individually, however if we took it as a series of actions and choices, each choice is determined by a former completed choice and prefference built based on our previous experiences.
Free will and determinism meet on the same plain and become compatible together rather than contradictory when we take previous experience- based preferences and individual reasoning.
while looking at it as whole system from an outside observer perpective gives you the conclusion that everything is predetermend.
You also should look at it as an insider observer to know what makes the actions determined, which will give you the conclusion that the determination comes from within ourselves first.
Basically, while we're part of a much larger system and merely interact with all the other pieces in it.
Our decisions are not based on a pre-determined order in the system, rather its based on our own perception, understanding and experience within the system which shapes our preferences and reasoning.
Thats called soft-determinism :p

Now there is also anther view for it in a religious aspect and anther in a theological aspect, but thats for anther debate.

EDIT:
There is a little story i feel like mentioning. Its not something 'll debate here, but i just thought of bringing it up to expand on the former.
Its related to the topic, and its quite an interesting one in matter of philosophical meaning when you think deeper into it and specially when in such debate about free will and determinism.
The story is in the Hadith, i.e its an Islamic story.
Its about a society mentioned to be somewhere in the levent but i don't recall exactly which one.
Anyways, this society (a small village better say) was almost entirely made of sinfull people, there is nothing they wouldn't do, no crimes they wouldn't cross to, etc. But, there was a man, who was a true worshiper of god, and a true believer. cutting through the story, in the end, said that when god's punishment comes, all will be punished, even including the good man.
Now the lesson behind it is to show the importance of calling people for rightousness and good deeds and away from sinfull and harmfull deeds. And along with social responsibility.
But it goes deeper into the whole argument of determinism and free will.
When you think about it, one of the things about the middle ground between hardcore free will principle and determinism (i.e soft determinism or compatilisim <check name) is that while you have free will, what is determined mainly isn't your choice but rather your options.
This in one hand gives way to a modern idea that free will is simply the sense of control.
But in regard to the basic argument, it shows that while you're free to choose, in one hand your choice would determine a set of other choices based on it, and not only for you but also for people effected by it, and the same goes on. And on the other hand your choices were determined by a previous set of choices that was both yours and not yours.
This shows how much we're not only interconnected to the system, but also that we can and do effect the set of outcomes.

Now back to the point of the story, its shows a few things to be considered.
1- That our actions will effect others and their actions along the way, and if we did the right thing, the outcome would be better, and vice versa.
2- This presses even more importance to the Islamic view of social harmony. When the prophet described that the nation is like a single living body, if one part goes ill, all goes ill.
Basically, not only that the greatest good can only be achieved when the entire society is in full harmony on the right path, but also that it is important to act in a way to bring that state even if its not in hand.
And 3- which is the degree of responsibility we have over our actions. That not only we're responsible for our actions, but we hold proportionate responsibility for all the results our actions has caused.
A lack of actions is still an action.
Last edited by anasawad on 31 Aug 2016 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
By Besoeker
#14714198
anasawad wrote:We sure thought that everything is random, but with time we're finding out that most things we used to think is random are actually following specific rules.
Same for subatomic particles, its not random, it has quite a lot of laws the define how and why it moves. However we're still expanding our knowledge on the subject.

How about Brownian Motion?

anasawad wrote:'m not sure you are using Heisenberg uncertainty principle correctly, because it does not incline anything about randomness.
Even if you want to go further and put the second law of thermodynamics. That also does not incline anything of randomness in reality even though some people use it to describe such.

My comment was based on what I was taught by Dr Sellars in my final year. Of course he could have been wrong.

anasawad wrote:You brought this up several times, an answer has been given and then ignored by you in each and everytime. And you keep bringing it up.
I personally have given you several views of this philosophical principles in many aspects including a scientific one to show why both can be true and not contradictory.

God, if such exists, is eternal. Not constrained by time. God, if such exists, is omniscient. Thus knows what you will do before you even existed to make that decision. For me, that is not logically compatible with free will. If you see it differently, no problem.
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By Elyzabeth
#14714199
anasawad wrote:'m interested in this.

What is your best arugment that god doesn't exist ?
Specifically the Islamic understanding of god.


The last line should have been in your post !

World of difference between "what is God"

and" what is the Islamic interpretation of God"

I have read a lot about Islam, but I would not go near this one !
By anasawad
#14714215
@Besoeker
How about Brownian Motion?

I would say i have not read the specifics of this one, however, i do know that if this motion of particles was not to exist, then nature mostly would go imbalanced and the universe in general would be in much ruins.
An example of why. I think the first and simplist thing is pressure.

My comment was based on what I was taught by Dr Sellars in my final year. Of course he could have been wrong.

Hiesenberg uncertainty is a way to describe the behavior of wave like and energy in general systems. Not particles in it self or alone.

Each particle does move constantly and i think that is what you meant at first, and specially a new saying that is spread all around that an atom could be anywhere in the entire universe at any single moment. Which gives the impression of randomness.
But that is not entirely true, there is a range in which an atom moves within it all the time.
Some started saying that its random movement, but the truth is, we actually still trying to figure out why and how atoms move like that and whats the limits beyond it. And also whats its role, as in what does it do and whats the full effects of the movement.

Brownian motion is part of this, simply this a little wider.
'm not sure what was the name for this theory actually.
The brownian one describes liquids and gazes, and the other is more general to all particles and subatomic particles. but i forgot. anyways.

God, if such exists, is eternal. Not constrained by time. God, if such exists, is omniscient. Thus knows what you will do before you even existed to make that decision. For me, that is not logically compatible with free will. If you see it differently, no problem.

Yea, that is probably why i stated a number of time earlier that i am looking at god at base in an Islamic perspective, in which this little dogma doesn't exist due to al-qada' and al-qadr.
Now Christianity, and Zoroastrianism in my knowledge does not have that problem, however the principle which solves this problem is i would say not understood well, and oftenly twisted to hold an entire different meaning other than it is supposed to. That resulted in this problem.


@Elyzabeth
World of difference between "what is God"

and" what is the Islamic interpretation of God"

Yea, but most of the discussion pretty much turned away from Islamic perspective to general existence of god.
Its a new discussion if i was to say. :p
By Besoeker
#14714220
anasawad wrote:@Besoeker

I would say i have not read the specifics of this one, however, i do know that if this motion of particles was not to exist, then nature mostly would go imbalanced and the universe in general would be in much ruins.
An example of why. I think the first and simplist thing is pressure.


Hiesenberg uncertainty is a way to describe the behavior of wave like and energy in general systems. Not particles in it self or alone.

Do you know about the wave and particle duality?

anasawad wrote:Yea, that is probably why i stated a number of time earlier that i am looking at god at base in an Islamic perspective, in which this little dogma doesn't exist due to al-qada' and al-qadr.
Now Christianity, and Zoroastrianism in my knowledge does not have that problem, however the principle which solves this problem is i would say not understood well, and oftenly twisted to hold an entire different meaning other than it is supposed to. That resulted in this problem.

I can't respond to that constructively. I don't know much about the Qur’an.
By Pants-of-dog
#14714238
Besoeker wrote:Why guess? Read the title of the topic.


The title of the topic does not clarify your sentence fragments.

Or as you would say: it doesn't.

Something that could be measured, tested, verified, and repeatable. Or any combination of those. But you have already stated that is not possible so I don't know why you even asked the question.


So you are asking for the impossible.

It would be like asking my hammer to invent a transistor.
By Besoeker
#14714241
Pants-of-dog wrote:The title of the topic does not clarify your sentence fragments.

Or as you would say: it doesn't.

This is a discussion forum. Normally, people would see is as a conversational style rather than a competition for the Pulitzer prize.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So you are asking for the impossible.

You said it was impossible. No big deal. And I agree with you on that point anyway.
By Pants-of-dog
#14714243
Besoeker wrote:This is a discussion forum. Normally, people would see is as a conversational style rather than a competition for the Pulitzer prize.


Still not clear.

You said it was impossible. No big deal. And I agree with you on that point anyway.


Yes, I know you already agreed that you were asking for the impossible. I am pointing out that this would be impossible even if god did exist.

I hope you understand why I find it amusing.
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By Drlee
#14714245
God, if such exists, is eternal. Not constrained by time. God, if such exists, is omniscient. Thus knows what you will do before you even existed to make that decision. For me, that is not logically compatible with free will. If you see it differently, no problem.


This is contrary to many of the Islamic, Christian and Judaic beliefs. You are vastly oversimplifying what theologians believe in this regard. The notion of free-will is very complicated and not likely to be explained here.

Please understand that the "universe" in which God lives is not the "same" universe that He created for people. Obviously there are different "rules". I think you are unaware of the fact that for most Christians (I should only speak for some perhaps) these kinds of questions do not bear on our faith. They are "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" questions. IF (and you will have to tell us this is the case) you really want to understand the nature of religious belief, you will have to drop the search for ultimate logic. Belief is, by definition, not "scientific" or even sometimes "logical". We are not called to prove for God we are called to believe in Him. Not the Him that He knows perhaps but the one that He has offered to us.

I don't think you do want to understand religious belief. I think it is obvious that you want to argue that it is unsupportable on scientific grounds and hope to persuade others to your line of reasoning. Why not admit it? Why not admit that you wish to dissuade believers of their beliefs? You will at least then be playing an intellectually honest game.
By Besoeker
#14714249
Drlee wrote:Please understand that the "universe" in which God lives is not the "same" universe that He created for people.

That is your opinion, your belief.
And that's fine.
But I don't know how you can possibly claim it as fact or certainty.
By anasawad
#14714359
@Besoeker
Yes i do.
Hiesenberg is one of those to study it. and the uncertainty principle is for it.
However it does not describe randomness, nor does it imply randomness.

The concept of randomness in physics was a theme of classical physics.
The reason why atoms and particles in general move and how do they move is currently one of the main topics to be studied and researched in the scientific community.
There are already a number of theories about it being pushed on the table.
No scientist or research so far has suggested its a random movement or that it doesn't have anything behind it.


Again, if randomness was factual in the universe, nothing would exist.
There wont be any laws of physics nor anything that can be studied. And in matter of fact, not only there wont be any technology, it is most probable that life itself wont exist and even everything we know in the universe currently wont exist as it is.
Everywhere we dig deeper, we find a specific order that things work through.
The reason we managed to get this far is because we found some of those patterns and orders, used and expanded on them, and discovered even more.

You mentioned previously that electrons move randomly, when you said about electricity.
Electromagnatism would incline the exact opposite, that it is not random rather there is an order.
And even though we still don't fully understand it, that does not in anyway mean its not there or that it is just random.
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