Philippines President Duterte orders US forces out after 65 years: 'Do not treat us like a doormat' - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14728272
You realize we're talking about the Philippines today and not back in 1899?

History matters, Rugoz. After all, it's what produced the present. The Philippines was brutally invaded by the USA and became a colony of the new American empire. In the aftermath of WWII, the USA could no longer keep the Philippines as an occupied colony, and it became a client state instead. It had its 'independence', but it was independence in name only - the Americans kept a military presence on the Philippines and intimidated or bribed the 'leaders' of the Philippines into obedience to their will. The end of the Cold War diminished the strategic importance of the Philippines, but it has still taken several decades for a political leader who actually possesses a spine to stand up to the Americans and order them out once and for all. This was made possible, of course, by the recent rise of China as a regional and global power.

I repeat: history happened, and history matters. How can you understand the present if you are ignorant of the past? :eh:
#14728276
Potemkin wrote:History matters, Rugoz. After all, it's what produced the present. The Philippines was brutally invaded by the USA and became a colony of the new American empire. In the aftermath of WWII, the USA could no longer keep the Philippines as an occupied colony, and it became a client state instead. It had its 'independence', but it was independence in name only - the Americans kept a military presence on the Philippines and intimidated or bribed the 'leaders' of the Philippines into obedience to their will. The end of the Cold War diminished the strategic importance of the Philippines, but it has still taken several decades for a political leader who actually possesses a spine to stand up to the Americans and order them out once and for all. This was made possible, of course, by the recent rise of China as a regional and global power.

I repeat: history happened, and history matters. How can you understand the present if you are ignorant of the past? :eh:


Well, at least you differentiate between colony, client state and the Philippines today. Of course every country on this planet is "independent by name only". It is not a useful thing to say.
#14728278
Well, at least you differentiate between colony, client state and the Philippines today. Of course every country on this planet is "independent by name only". It is not a useful thing to say.

In fact, it is a very useful thing to say. Every nation is part of the global order, it is true, and its freedom of action is restricted thereby, but to say that nations such as the USA, the UK, China or the Philippines all have "the same" freedom of action and status is absurd. Even to this day, some nations are clearly colonies, some nations are client states and some nations are imperialist powers. To believe otherwise is evidence of a staggering level of historical and geo-political ignorance.
#14728365
Potemkin wrote:In fact, it is a very useful thing to say. Every nation is part of the global order, it is true, and its freedom of action is restricted thereby, but to say that nations such as the USA, the UK, China or the Philippines all have "the same" freedom of action and status is absurd. Even to this day, some nations are clearly colonies, some nations are client states and some nations are imperialist powers. To believe otherwise is evidence of a staggering level of historical and geo-political ignorance.


Where is Germany? It is not a client state not a imperial power.
#14728400
Just fine with this. The PI are a drain on our resources. If I was the president I would order the drone pilots home on the next plane. Let this "hard man" deal with them alone. He is tough. HE doesn't need help. I am sure China will be happy to garrison the PI against the Islamic folks.

It is time we also stop people from PI from sending money home. No need to allow them to export our treasure to an enemy country.

You have to love this Australia. You will enjoy your new alliance with China. For that is where you are going. You can just take your lead from Igor. He is a totalitarian fanboy and always has been.
#14728402
Lets see how long it takes before Vietnam ironically becomes our next Philippines. I'll also be curious to see how well the Philippino people prefer Chinese hegemony to American. Its not like there is a massive migration of Philippinos to China after all and the majority of Philippinos (and people of SE Asia in general) don't care for the Chinese.

This is more fuel for Trump's best weapon against Clinton - foreign policy. The Obama administration has seen a dramatic decrease in American power and prestige across the world. The fact that Obama did not initiate any of the policies that seem to be failing is not relevant given the nature of American electoral politics. We'll wait a couple weeks and see.
#14728509
Australia and New Zealand would also not have to be sending soldiers to the Middle East for the annual adventure.

Australia can easily choose a continental rather than Atlantic alignment. It is under no obligation to be joined at the hip with the US.

China is hardly any threat to Australia or New Zealand.
#14728515
Frollein wrote::eh: We're a vassal state of the American Empire. What made you think otherwise?


Nonsense. No serious historian would call Germany a vassal state of the US.

When was the last time Germany made any meaningful contribution to an American military campaign despite being the second wealthiest country in NATO? When was the last time it paid tribute? What are the chances the US would take Western Europe by force, or even impose economic sanctions? Zero. It doesn't even do that with China, and Europe is more important economically.

Get a grip.

Potemkin wrote:Ignorance, I'm guessing.


A commie accusing others of ignorance. Truly comical.
#14728516
Drlee wrote:It is time we also stop people from PI from sending money home. No need to allow them to export our treasure to an enemy country.


So you contradict yourself here. You say you're just fine with the President of the Philippines doing this, then you say that we should begin punishing the citizens and immigrants from the Philippines for this. The implication is that it's an incentive to change his course of action.

Also Rugoz, you seem to be assuming that the argument about the existence of imperialist states means that only one country is an imperialist state. In reality, the Western European states are themselves imperialist states as well. NATO is an alliance of imperialist states, not a tool of American dominance over Europe, but rather Western domination over the rest of the world.
#14728533
So you contradict yourself here. You say you're just fine with the President of the Philippines doing this, then you say that we should begin punishing the citizens and immigrants from the Philippines for this. The implication is that it's an incentive to change his course of action.


Fair enough.

I think it is time we start thinking about America first. When another country is helping us achieve our political or economic goals then it is fine that we allow them, in some measure, to exploit us in return. When they declare themselves openly hostile to us and our interests then that mutuality ends.

Are we punishing immigrants and citizens of PI descent? Not really. We are punishing the folks at the other end. Yes I get that I might be angry if I could not send support to my mother. That is, as they say, the breaks.

I am not an open-borders person. I believe that borders make nations. I thought the EU would be a very bad deal for most Europeans in the end. I did not like NAFTA. The TPP is bad for us at home. Controlling our exports (and cash is just another export) is in our best interest.

As a union organizer you must conclude that you have not gotten a very good deal from the free trade/open borders folks. Just the opposite.
#14728539
I think it is time we start thinking about America first. When another country is helping us achieve our political or economic goals then it is fine that we allow them, in some measure, to exploit us in return. When they declare themselves openly hostile to us and our interests then that mutuality ends.

Are you suggesting that there was 'mutuality' in the relationship between the USA and the Philippines? If so, then there was 'mutuality' between the British Empire and India during the Raj. :eh:

Are we punishing immigrants and citizens of PI descent? Not really. We are punishing the folks at the other end. Yes I get that I might be angry if I could not send support to my mother. That is, as they say, the breaks.

Punishing them for what? Taking their country back? :eh:

I am not an open-borders person. I believe that borders make nations.

Indeed they do. So, to recap: you believe in the inviolability of national borders, but you also think the US invasion of the Philippines was a good thing. Okay, gotcha. :up:

I thought the EU would be a very bad deal for most Europeans in the end. I did not like NAFTA. The TPP is bad for us at home. Controlling our exports (and cash is just another export) is in our best interest.

I agree, but this is also a further argument that a nation which has been a victim of imperialism has the right and the duty to resist that imperialism. Colonies are run for the benefit of the imperialist nation, not the colony.

As a union organizer you must conclude that you have not gotten a very good deal from the free trade/open borders folks. Just the opposite.

In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet. I am a left-winger who opposes imperialism and also opposes the neo-liberal globalising agenda of free trade and open borders. In fact, it would be inconsistent to oppose one but not the other. Why do you find this difficult to understand? :eh:
#14728545
Are you suggesting that there was 'mutuality' in the relationship between the USA and the Philippines? If so, then there was 'mutuality' between the British Empire and India during the Raj


Yes. Clearly there was. I am not going to refight another 120 year old war. That is pointless. And it is wrong. The US did not "take" the PI from the people of the PI, it "took" it from Spain which had controlled the PI as a colony since 1521. Less than 40 years later we granted them commonwealth status. We also took the PI back from Japan. No doubt the people of the PI would have self actualized under Togo but the bad US threw him out. Then, less than a year later, recognized the PI as an independent nation for the first time in over 300 years. We withdrew our last CONTRACTUAL military presence in 1992. We have been helping them fight insurgency a bit but maintain no serious military presence there now.

So I take it you maintain that Spain should have kept the PI or that they were on the edge of granting them full and complete independence.

Punishing them for what? Taking their country back? :eh:


From whom? They already had it. They have simply decided to align with China and not the US. Why would we offer active support for this?



Indeed they do. So, to recap: you believe in the inviolability of national borders, but you also think the US invasion of the Philippines was a good thing. Okay, gotcha. :up:


I don't think you do. The only time the US ever "invaded" the PI was when we took it back from the Japanese. And less than a year later we gave it full and complete independence. We "bought" it from Spain and in less than 40 years granted it commonwealth status. Virtual independence. You do believe that now India is independent though it remains a member of the British Commonwealth.

In other news, the sky is blue and water is wet. I am a left-winger who opposes imperialism and also opposes the neo-liberal globalising agenda of free trade and open borders. In fact, it would be inconsistent to oppose one but not the other. Why do you find this difficult to understand?


You have failed to prove that the US relations with the PI stand up to the charge of "imperialism". If our relations with them are "imperial" you do not set the bar very high at all with the possible exception of 40 years nearly a century ago. Nations align. The PI benefited from its relations with the US FAR MORE than we benefited from ours with them. Other than a couple of expensive military bases in a region we considered in our interest to maintain a presence, we could have very well ignored them entirely. And that is precisely what I hope we do going forward.
#14728552
Yes. Clearly there was. I am not going to refight another 120 year old war. That is pointless. And it is wrong. The US did not "take" the PI from the people of the PI, it "took" it from Spain

:lol: And Britain did not "take" India from the people of India, we "took" it from the Moghul Empire. You see how that works, Drlee? :)

which had controlled the PI as a colony since 1521. Less than 40 years later we granted them commonwealth status. We also took the PI back from Japan. No doubt the people of the PI would have self actualized under Togo but the bad US threw him out.

Tojo, Drlee. His name was 'Tojo'. And you are essentially justifying American imperialism by saying, "Well, everyone else was doing it too!" What would Jefferson have made of all this, do you think? :eh:

Then, less than a year later, recognized the PI as an independent nation for the first time in over 300 years. We withdrew our last CONTRACTUAL military presence in 1992. We have been helping them fight insurgency a bit but maintain no serious military presence there now.

So I take it you maintain that Spain should have kept the PI or that they were on the edge of granting them full and complete independence.

The Philippines was on the verge of wresting their independence from the Spanish Empire (which Cuba actually succeeded in doing, and which Puerto Rico had almost succeeded in doing too) - the Spanish Empire was on the verge of total collapse by the 1890s. This is why the US went to war with them - they were weak, they had colonies which would be of great strategic value to the US in the future, and, well, because the US wanted to join the European club of great imperial nations. The 'Maine' was merely the convenient pretext for war.

From whom? They already had it. They have simply decided to align with China and not the US. Why would we offer active support for this?

I never said you should. But throwing a hissy fit because they have realigned themselves on the geopolitical stage is... unbecoming, Drlee. It makes you sound like an enraged, red-faced British imperialist fulminating against "the natives". :lol:

I don't think you do. The only time the US ever "invaded" the PI was when we took it back from the Japanese.

Oh, really? Philippine-American War. The Philippines declared independence from the Spanish Empire, after a long struggle. America 'inherited' the Philippines from Spain in the Treaty of Paris (along with Cuba, Puerto Rico et al.), and promptly invaded 'their' colony to make sure the Filippinos didn't get any fancy ideas about governing themselves or anything.

And less than a year later we gave it full and complete independence. We "bought" it from Spain and in less than 40 years granted it commonwealth status. Virtual independence. You do believe that now India is independent though it remains a member of the British Commonwealth.

Commonwealth status for the American Empire's former colonies is not the same as Commonwealth status for the British Empire's former colonies. Puerto Rico's constitutional and economic relationship with the US today is not the same as India's constitutional and economic relationship with the UK.

You have failed to prove that the US relations with the PI stand up to the charge of "imperialism". If our relations with them are "imperial" you do not set the bar very high at all with the possible exception of 40 years nearly a century ago. Nations align. The PI benefited from its relations with the US FAR MORE than we benefited from ours with them.

:lol:

I don't suppose you're going to back that up with any, you know, facts and figures, are you? No, didn't think so. :)

Other than a couple of expensive military bases in a region we considered in our interest to maintain a presence, we could have very well ignored them entirely. And that is precisely what I hope we do going forward.

So do I, Drlee. And, I suspect, so do they. So everyone's happy then? :up: :)
#14728595
So do I, Drlee. And, I suspect, so do they. So everyone's happy then? :up: :)


I hope so. I am really tired of the US getting involved in every backwater in the world. The PI has no strategic importance to us. My "punishing" of expats is simply putting an exclamation point on that.

While it is not in our interest to invest much time and any money in the PI I think it is fine for us to respond to a snub like this. President Duterte had "dared us" to end aid to his country. We are scheduled to give them $180 million in 2017. Mostly military aid. I believe that every penny of that should be withheld and all US Military assets in the country withdrawn at once. They have said publically that they could "live without it". We ought to let them.

They have said that they are going to buy weapons from China and Russia. Let them. They do not have enough to worry about anyway.

I hope they are happy. I just hope they are not allowed to play us like chumps. If they want to run with the big dogs they need to face the consequences.
#14728596
The Philippine War was absolutely horrendous to add to Potemkin's point. It was the Vietnam War before Vietnam. The US military refused to take prisoners, massacred women and children, and betrayed the very people they claimed to be "liberating" from the Spanish. Drlee, you should read Mark Twain's article about the war. I'm honestly surprised that the average Philippino has a positive opinion of the US considering the nature of that war, but I guess it was a long time ago.

Also, the Philippines are a huge part of America's Pacific strategy, this is certainly a blow to American military preeminence.

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