Abortion views: Pro-choice or Pro-life? - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14744964
There is a connection since One Degree wants to strip women of the right to choose abortion, as an option, even if their life might very well depend on it. All this at the whim of a community of people who aren't extremely likely to be educated in Obstetrics/Gynecology. There is a reason we consult doctors, and not plumbers when we are ill.

Obviously you made no attempt to read my comments before you made this absurd statement.
I am amazed you 'intelligent' people have such trouble with reading comprehension.
I strongly support a woman's right to choose, but as I repeatedly stated my opinion is not the only opinion and I understand that. You obviously don't. It is difficult to remain civil when constantly confronted by this type of juvenile hypocrisy.
#14744968
One Degree wrote:You obviously don't. It is difficult to remain civil when constantly confronted by this type of juvenile hypocrisy.
Don't use big words if you don't know the meanings. Your ad hominems are plain childish, as well.
#14744987
One Degree wrote:Once again, your logic is flawed by your inability to see your views are not the only possible right view.


No, I do not think my view is the only right view.

I think it is the only view that is entirely logically consistent with the idea that each person has the right to determine what their body is used for.

I know for a fact that other people think other positions are right. And I also know that it is inconsistent for someone to think any position other than mine is right while simultaneously thinking that every woman should have the right to decide what to do with her body.

You statement assumes I am pro life.


No. My criticism of your position assumes that you believe that people can vote away the rights of the individual. This position of yours can be, and has been, used to excuse slavery, genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass rape and other crimes against humanity. Whites have done this to blacks, gentiles to Jews, men have done it to women. This is true regardless of what the person knows as One Degree thinks or feels about any of these specific issues.

The only reason I point out the abortion issue is because the topic of our discussion is views on abortion.

Your argument is that the country should not be allowed to impose their views about abortion on the states. My view is that the state (and I use both senses of the word here) should not be allowed to impose its abortion views on the woman.

You also assume all the women in every community agree with you.
Both your assumptions are false.
There are many women who would choose to live in a community that banned abortion.


No, my argument is just as valid even if no woman at all anywhere agreed with me. So, for the purposes of this discussion, I am happy to concede the point that conservative women want to impose their views on other women.
#14745131
No, my argument is just as valid even if no woman at all anywhere agreed with me. So, for the purposes of this discussion, I am happy to concede the point that conservative women want to impose their views on other women.

Some do just as some liberal women want to impose their views. My arguments actually show you how to win. As long as you insist upon national laws, there will always be a backlash.
The states rapidly copy what ever is popular. Return abortion to the states and be patient. You can win a victory without fighting a war.
#14745169
How does a pro-choice person impose their view?

They force someone else to make the decision about what she does with ther body? The whole idea of being forced to be pro-choice is nonsensical and oxymoronic.

I was really impressed with your improved outlook for awhile, but now you are back to pretending to be dense.
A national law supporting abortion tells pro life people their views are not acceptable. They are told they are unacceptable in a country that was founded on their beliefs. They are forced to accept this or leave the country.
#14745172
Actually, if abortion is allowed everywhere, the pro-life are forced to stop imposing their beliefs on others. But they can still live by their personal beliefs by simply not choosing to have an abortion.

The reverse (that abortion is not allowed), means that pro-choice people cannot even decide what to do with their own bodies.

You keep incorrectly assuming both sides are equal when discussing how their positions impose on other people.
#14745175
You keep incorrectly assuming both sides are equal when discussing how their positions impose on other people.

Both sides are equal because both sides are supported by humans who believe they are right. I see no harm in allowing the people of Alabama, for example, to ban abortion if they wish. When they see 40 other states do not agree with them, then they will eventually rethink their position. You never change your mind during an argument. You change your mind much later. National laws just prolong the argument, so no one has time to truly think. I trust people. If left alone to make their own decisions, they will come up with the correct ones. If pressured, they will fight change.
#14745179
One Degree wrote:Both sides are equal because both sides are supported by humans who believe they are right.


You just ignored my explanation as to how they are different, and then repeated your incorrect claim. This is not an argument.

I see no harm in allowing the people of Alabama, for example, to ban abortion if they wish.


I do, because it takes away a person's right to do with what they want with their body, and allows communities to forcefully impose their views on people's bodies.

When they see 40 other states do not agree with them, then they will eventually rethink their position. You never change your mind during an argument. You change your mind much later. National laws just prolong the argument, so no one has time to truly think. I trust people. If left alone to make their own decisions, they will come up with the correct ones. If pressured, they will fight change.


So, you think people should have the freedom to oppress others. Fine.

I think that people who live in liberal democraces are supposed to have certain inalienable rights as guaranteed by a constitution.

One of us has a postion which is actually consistent with the tenets of the gov'ts of North America. The other one has the view that the majority gets to take away the rights of minorities.
#14745180
The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt

Please consider reading the above. He explains our differences much better than either of us are doing.
#14745182
You are assuming that I am somehow ignorant of the pro-life arguments or otherwise not giving them their due consideration. I know these arguments, and I have thought about them.

This is why I know the positions are logically inconsistent if they also accept the notion that we all have certain rights including the right to determine what our bodies are used for.
#14745190
You are assuming that I am somehow ignorant of the pro-life arguments or otherwise not giving them their due consideration. I know these arguments, and I have thought about them.

Not at all. The abortion debate is just one of many arguments based upon an underlying different view of the world held by different people. The book I suggested is about understanding these different viewpoints, not in taking a side on any of the issues.
#14745191
A national law supporting abortion tells pro life people their views are not acceptable.


We have no law supporting abortion and I know of no move to propose one.

They are told they are unacceptable in a country that was founded on their beliefs. They are forced to accept this or leave the country.


Nonsense. They are cowards if they do that. They have the absolute right to carry their children to term. They have the absolute right to speak against abortion including efforts to have it banned. But more importantly they have the absolute right to pass laws to help pregnant women keep their children financially. More day care. Higher minimum wage. Health care for the mother. But these idiots crying about abortion are the same mental midgets cutting all of these programs which are the bedrock of helping mostly single moms keep their children.

These are not two issues. They are one issue. Efforts to ban abortion have never been entirely successful. Efforts to help pregnant women have and keep their children frequently have.
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