[XogGyux]

Why don't you take a shot at rebutting one or two of my points. Or do you agree with me?

My guess is it is just too hard for you to actually debate.

Ha! you are complaining that this was derailed and now you want to continue derailing it?
It is very obvious that what you want to do is troll.
So no. I wont lower myself to your level. I explained my position thoroughly I won't play into your delusions. None of the arguments that you gave have been convincing.
Your statement signaled you did not want to have this argument to what I obliged.

[Drlee]

As we say in Texas. Big hat no cows.

I made very good points. You obviously lack the ability to debate so you accuse me of trolling.


Sorry son. Either play or go away.

You have a personal problem with me. That is just fine with me. Making you angry is a pleasure.

But for the adults who are still participating in this board, my points remain.

Based on what I said above, legalizing drugs in the US would help Mexico to deal with its drug problem. No doubt about it. The problem is that it is too high a price to pay for the US. It is not our responsibility to pay with US lives for unrest in Mexico. We might as well just invade and eliminate the cartels, disarm the population, replace the government with one of our choosing and impose order. It would cost less than the death legal hard drugs would cause.

(And oh by the way, we would dramatically limit the supply of drugs available in the US as well.)

[Thunderhawk]

If drugs were legalized in the USA, I think there would still be a flow from Mexico as their illegal drugs are probably cheaper and easier to access then would-be legal drugs, much like illegal/native reserve cigarettes vs the legal ones.
However, I do think the illicit flow from Mexico would reduce dramatically as legal sources become more widespread and accepted over time. I suspect domestic illicit production would also increases as legalization would likely change the cost/benefit analysis, much like illegal alcohol is consumed but long distance transport increases danger and cost making illegal booze less competitive against legal sources.

With less drugs moving from and through Mexico, there is less money for the cartels to make from them. Im sure they will diversify and I suspect there would be an initial uptick in violence as the cartels fight over the remaining profitable routes and criminal ventures, long term I see a reduced cash flow leading to a reduction in Cartels' size, actions, influence and violence. Perhaps some will transition to semi-legit, like the Italian and Japanese mafias.

[Drlee]

Tell me Thunderhawk. Do you see legalization of hard drugs as a good thing for the US to do? I am speaking solely of US interest and not Mexico.

I have been thinking about this for quite some time and have concluded that there is no practical way to do it. We certainly don't want a cocaine aisle in the grocery store and crack stores on the corner. This leave some kind of physician assisted centers like the medical marijuana places in the states where it is legal. These are mostly a sham but more importantly, they have proved to be fairly expensive. So consider that it costs a couple of hundred dollars to get the prescription and dispensary prices of pot are better than $200.00 an ounce. But if an oz lasts a month for moderate recreational use that is not too bad for the average person.

It makes no sense to me to legalize heroin (for example) unless it is accessible affordably. The addict today is paying quite a bit but not enough for legal sources to count on. Certainly an out of work addict has enough trouble as it is without paying inflated prices in a dispensary. So we are too the doctors office. Of course their are doctors who might prescribe maintenance doses of heroin. Not very many, and not for free. Doctors (should) look for a way to wean the patient off of addicting drugs so that would have to be part of the mix.

So what you have is a giant, government funded program to give hard drugs to people who can't afford them in the first place. People who are largely prevented from working by their addiction. People who should have rehab available but can't afford that either. So without solutions to those problems we would be gaining nothing except the dubious claim that street crime might go down in some places.

Also please consider. We already have the proven rehab methods and legal drugs doctors can prescribe to help people get off illegal drugs. We don't need legalization to fix our addiction problem. We need money. And under a conservative government that is just not going to happen.

[Pants-of-dog]

As you note, this would not be good for Mexico. The violence in Mexcio would continue, and more innocent Mexicans will did because of US cocaine customers and US laws.

[Drlee]

As you note, this would not be good for Mexico. The violence in Mexcio would continue, and more innocent Mexicans will did because of US cocaine customers and US laws.

I think that is probably right. That is Thunderhawk's point as well.

As I think about what Thunderhawk said, I am persuaded that he is correct. Mexico would still produce product to be sold more affordably here. Then there is the issue of social sanction against users. Many will still not seek treatment for fear of repercussions. They may well be the basis for a fairly large underground market.

I think this discussion points out how hard this is to deal with. The problem requires a very comprehensive and sensitive solution. I don't think we are able to even embark on a comprehensive program in this political climate. Especially since we really don't know what the solution might look like.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well, as long as the status quo continues, more Mexicans will die as a result of US policy and US appetites.

[Drlee]

Well, as long as the status quo continues, more Mexicans will die as a result of US policy and US appetites.

What unmitigated horse shit. Mexicans are dying because of Mexican policy, and Mexican appetites. It is preposterous to blame the US. THEY can decide to enforce THEIR laws. THEY can decide to put the cartels out of business. THEY can decide to do without the inflow of money in exchange for saving THEIR lives.

The US bears no responsibility whatsoever for what is happening in Mexico and it is time we shout that from the rooftops.

As I said before. It is time the US got out of the affairs of other nations and let them deal with their own criminals.

[One Degree]

As I said before. It is time the US got out of the affairs of other nations and let them deal with their own criminals.

What an outrageous idea.
Are you suggesting the US might not be responsible for all the world's problems?
I don't think that idea will go very far as it would require people to take responsibility for their own welfare and they don't like that. The US should help everybody. What do you mean why? They just should.

[Pants-of-dog]

What unmitigated horse shit. Mexicans are dying because of Mexican policy, and Mexican appetites. It is preposterous to blame the US. THEY can decide to enforce THEIR laws. THEY can decide to put the cartels out of business. THEY can decide to do without the inflow of money in exchange for saving THEIR lives.

The US bears no responsibility whatsoever for what is happening in Mexico and it is time we shout that from the rooftops.

As I said before. It is time the US got out of the affairs of other nations and let them deal with their own criminals.

Really? The current violence is all about controlling smuggling routes to the US for the lucrative cocaine trade.

It is not Mexicans buying all that cocaine. It is the US.

And it is not Mexican policy that decides that cociane is illegal in the US and needs to be smuggled in. It is US policy.

But please blame Mexicans for the fact that the US loves its illegal nose candy.

[One Degree]

But please blame Mexicans for the fact that the US loves its illegal nose candy.

So, a Mexican sells cocaine to a US citizen and in your opinion this makes the US citizen guilty and the Mexican innocent? I would think the guilt should at least be mutual. Both have the choice of not engaging in illegal activities. Why do you judge one more guilty than the other?

[Pants-of-dog]

So, a Mexican sells cocaine to a US citizen and in your opinion this makes the US citizen guilty and the Mexican innocent? I would think the guilt should at least be mutual. Both have the choice of not engaging in illegal activities. Why do you judge one more guilty than the other?

I do not. This thing where you think I am blaming the US more is just something you made up.

Ultimately, it is the hired guns of the cartels who are responsible for the violence, but that does not contradict anything I have said in terms of how US policy and appetites have created the conditions that lead to this violence.

[One Degree]

Ultimately, it is the hired guns of the cartels who are responsible for the violence, but that does not contradict anything I have said in terms of how US policy and appetites have created the conditions that lead to this violence.

I would not argue that the US is innocent of aiding the drug traffic, but the ultimate responsibility must be the poverty and ignorance that makes drug dealing look like a good profession in Mexico. Yes, I believe the poor and disenfranchised should accept their lot as opposed to becoming criminals.

[Pants-of-dog]

@One Degree,

Well, your idealism is probably not as good as crime for putting food on the table.

Choosing a life of crime is not based on ignorance. People do it to make money. For people with few other choices, it is a rational choice based on self-interest. The vast majority of the problems associated with a life of crime are suffered by the victims of the criminals. Economists call this "externalities".

On a more interesting note, the Mexican economy is such that crime often does seem like a good idea. There are reasons why the economies of Latin America are different from their northern counterparts. As my mom taught me, I analyse this by tracing the historical roots of capitalism, colonialism, imperialism and following them to the present era. Suffice it to say that it is difficult to create a strong local economy when you are a small, geographically diverse, culturally heterogeneous, resource rich country that is within striking distance of large and paternalistic powers.

[One Degree]

Well, your idealism is probably not as good as crime for putting food on the table.

I agree and would also choose crime if my family was hungry.

Choosing a life of crime is not based on ignorance. People do it to make money. For people with few other choices, it is a rational choice based on self-interest. The vast majority of the problems associated with a life of crime are suffered by the victims of the criminals. Economists call this "externalities".

Again, I agree.

On a more interesting note, the Mexican economy is such that crime often does seem like a good idea. There are reasons why the economies of Latin America are different from their northern counterparts. As my mom taught me, I analyse this by tracing the historical roots of capitalism, colonialism, imperialism and following them to the present era. Suffice it to say that it is difficult to create a strong local economy when you are a small, geographically diverse, culturally heterogeneous, resource rich country that is within striking distance of large and paternalistic powers.

This is where I get confused. I admit to not understanding why Latin America has languished while North America has thrived. The surface indications can be attributed to racial identity, but I don't buy that. Larger impact of Native Americans not being as culturally 'advanced'? I note your indication of blaming US interference, but even that seems too simple. I would appreciate it, if you wish to expand upon your views of why this has happened.

[Drlee]

Really? The current violence is all about controlling smuggling routes to the US for the lucrative cocaine trade.

That is correct.

It is not Mexicans buying all that cocaine. It is the US.

That is not correct. Mexicans are buying it wholesale to resell in the US market.

And it is not Mexican policy that decides that cociane is illegal in the US and needs to be smuggled in. It is US policy.

This is also incorrect. Preposterous if you think about it. Cocaine is illegal in the US. We have decided not to allow it. That means that it does not "need to be smuggled in". It is not "needed" at all. There are three drug companies in the US which offer all of the legal cocaine we "need" for medical purposes. Mexican cocaine is smuggled into the US and sold by criminals who are peddling death on the installment plan to people who need medical care.

But please blame Mexicans for the fact that the US loves its illegal nose candy.

In general I do not blame Mexico for that. I blame Mexican criminals for breaking our drug laws. I would add though that the fact that they make the drug so easily available leads to additional Americans having the option of violating the law and ruining their health.

But there is the difference you see. I accept that these Americans should accept responsibility for their own addiction. I am not willing to blame it on the Mexican criminals who are looking to expand their illegal market. Its called personal responsibility and it is an old concept not much spoken of these days.

As my mom taught me, I analyse this by tracing the historical roots of capitalism, colonialism, imperialism and following them to the present era. Suffice it to say that it is difficult to create a strong local economy when you are a small, geographically diverse, culturally heterogeneous, resource rich country that is within striking distance of large and paternalistic powers.

And you somehow think Mexico is harmed by its proximity to the US? President Trump is about to go a long way to accomplishing what you would like to see happen. We will abrogate or renegotiate NAFTA to stop US wealth from overwhelming the "poor local economies". We will stop the flow of remittances from illegal workers into Mexico thereby allowing these local markets to seek real economic balance. We will deport many of these illegal entrants allowing Mexico the benefit of these hard-working and sometimes trained workers. We will incentivize our multi-nationals (such as automobile manufacturers and other factories) to come home to the US and stop the economic imperialism.


Yup. You are about to get what you want. A return to quiet village life in Mexico. Sleepy, dusty and crushingly poor.

Fucking Spanish. They jacked everything up.

[Pants-of-dog]

This is where I get confused. I admit to not understanding why Latin America has languished while North America has thrived. The surface indications can be attributed to racial identity, but I don't buy that. Larger impact of Native Americans not being as culturally 'advanced'? I note your indication of blaming US interference, but even that seems too simple. I would appreciate it, if you wish to expand upon your views of why this has happened.

First of all, Latinos are not a race. We are a language group, as we all speak Spanish or Portuguese. There are white Latinos, black Latinos, Latinos with mostly indigenous ancestry, and even Asian Latinos.

The indigenous cultures in Mexico at the time of contact were arguably more "advanced" (according to how Europeans measure it) than many European nations. So that was not it either.

Part of it is that Mexico has an incredible wealth in natural resources, so it was a target ripe for exploitation during the colonial era, which the Spanish did. This set the tone for a specific relationship between the colony and Spain that was different from Anglo colonies.

This lasted for a long time, under different powers, and this then segued into US involvement during the 1900s. Each foreign power was financially vested in not allowing Mexico any real independence, as this would restrict access to the rich resources of Mexico.

This is, of course, a very brief summary.

---------------

That is not correct. Mexicans are buying it wholesale to resell in the US market.

Since this is what I meant, I also agree. The whole system is designed to deliver cocaine to the US market.

This is also incorrect. Preposterous if you think about it. Cocaine is illegal in the US. We have decided not to allow it. That means that it does not "need to be smuggled in". It is not "needed" at all. There are three drug companies in the US which offer all of the legal cocaine we "need" for medical purposes. Mexican cocaine is smuggled into the US and sold by criminals who are peddling death on the installment plan to people who need medical care.

This is the same thing I said but with different words. If the US wants to buy cocaine for recreational purposes or for self medication, and the US definitely does, then the cocaine needs to be smuggled in because it is illegal.

In general I do not blame Mexico for that. I blame Mexican criminals for breaking our drug laws. I would add though that the fact that they make the drug so easily available leads to additional Americans having the option of violating the law and ruining their health.

And what about the US criminals who pay for it all? If these people were not paying mad money to the Mexical cartels, innocent Mexicans would not be getting killed.

But there is the difference you see. I accept that these Americans should accept responsibility for their own addiction. I am not willing to blame it on the Mexican criminals who are looking to expand their illegal market. Its called personal responsibility and it is an old concept not much spoken of these days.

Then why should the US not do anything at all about the innocent Mexicans who are dying because of the violence associated with US cocaine use?

And you somehow think Mexico is harmed by its proximity to the US?

Yes.

President Trump is about to go a long way to accomplishing what you would like to see happen. We will abrogate or renegotiate NAFTA to stop US wealth from overwhelming the "poor local economies". We will stop the flow of remittances from illegal workers into Mexico thereby allowing these local markets to seek real economic balance. We will deport many of these illegal entrants allowing Mexico the benefit of these hard-working and sometimes trained workers. We will incentivize our multi-nationals (such as automobile manufacturers and other factories) to come home to the US and stop the economic imperialism.

Right. No doubt the US will end the War on Drugs that it is waging in Latin America. Sure. No doubt.

Yup. You are about to get what you want. A return to quiet village life in Mexico. Sleepy, dusty and crushingly poor.

Fucking Spanish. They jacked everything up.

Yes, Mexicans are useless without Uncle Sam. Right.

[One Degree]

Part of it is that Mexico has an incredible wealth in natural resources, so it was a target ripe for exploitation during the colonial era, which the Spanish did. This set the tone for a specific relationship between the colony and Spain that was different from Anglo colonies.

I must admit I was just curious if you would bring up the Catholic Church ban on usury, but kudos on zeroing in on what I consider the main reason also.

[Drlee]

And what about the US criminals who pay for it all? If these people were not paying mad money to the Mexical cartels, innocent Mexicans would not be getting killed.

Nope. Won't fly. They are Mexican criminal cartels. It is Mexico's responsibility to destroy them. We buy German cars but the Germans can't blame us for pollution caused by cars in Berlin. Besides. We prosecute criminals in the US when we catch them. We are doing exactly what we ought to do in that regard.

Then why should the US not do anything at all about the innocent Mexicans who are dying because of the violence associated with US cocaine use?

We are doing a great deal for them. We are spending billions to interdict drug shipments. We are giving Mexico law enforcement aid and intelligence. We are prosecuting drug dealers in the US. We are funding with US tax money, anti-drug messages in our media. That is what we ought to be doing. We should NOT be going into Mexico and chasing their criminals for them. (Though we do some of this too.)

I am glad though to add you to the people who support the border wall that President Trump advocates. This would help a great deal in hindering the cartels and by your estimation thereby lowering the criminal violence rate in Mexico. You will also be happy that President Trump intends to instantly deport any immigrant who commits a crime. This will help remove the cartel's people in the US and thereby lower the rate of violence in Mexico. At least by your estimation it will.

Yes, Mexicans are useless without Uncle Sam. Right.

Why would you make a bigoted comment like this?

[Pants-of-dog]

Nope. Won't fly. They are Mexican criminal cartels. It is Mexico's responsibility to destroy them. We buy German cars but the Germans can't blame us for pollution caused by cars in Berlin. Besides. We prosecute criminals in the US when we catch them. We are doing exactly what we ought to do in that regard.

To me, it seems like the US is simply ignoring the consequences of its actions in this regard. It seems to contradict the idea that people should accept responsibility for their own addiction. It's called personal responsibility and it is an old concept not much spoken of these days.

More importantly, this does not contradict my claim that these innocent Mexicans are dying as result of US demand for South American cocaine.

We are doing a great deal for them. We are spending billions to interdict drug shipments. We are giving Mexico law enforcement aid and intelligence. We are prosecuting drug dealers in the US. We are funding with US tax money, anti-drug messages in our media. That is what we ought to be doing. We should NOT be going into Mexico and chasing their criminals for them. (Though we do some of this too.)

This is all just ways of spending money on more police while ignoring the root causes of the violence. In fact, many of these steps exacerbate the violence.

I am glad though to add you to the people who support the border wall that President Trump advocates. This would help a great deal in hindering the cartels and by your estimation thereby lowering the criminal violence rate in Mexico. You will also be happy that President Trump intends to instantly deport any immigrant who commits a crime. This will help remove the cartel's people in the US and thereby lower the rate of violence in Mexico. At least by your estimation it will.

Strawman.

Why would you make a bigoted comment like this?

You said that without the US, Mexico would be "sleepy, dusty, and crushingly poor".