[demima]

I'm quite surprised at your 180 turn given the compliments you were dishing out for Corbyn only a few months ago. You know quite well that there is a concerted effort by the right wing elements within the party, as well as collusion with the media, yet you continue to attack the man. Did it surprise you that Corbyn was a socialist as well as a Euro sceptic? It seems unlikely you wouldnt have known. What would you do if you were him, step down because the right wingers made you step down, or continue to fight ensuring Labour at least gets some semblance of identity from the Tories or the Lib Dems? Your unwillingness to accept empirical evidence suggests your reaction is not based on reason, but rather headlines and panic. If Brexit was your primary concern, you should have joined the Lib Dems.

-edit- policies espoused by Corbyn by the way are not this 'loony ultra leftist' as it's being made out to be. They're actually quite sensible and relatively social democratic in nature.

[noemon]

When I openly declared for Corbyn and voted for Corbyn, Corbyn had also openly declared for me and his fight for my rights, now he has decided to throw me under the bus, in turn he has been trashed, has lost traditional seats, is polling Labour at 26%, the lowest in decades and as a preferred Leader he is last even behind UKIP. The fact that people like me decided to stand by Corbyn during his hour of need does not make us pets, as I said if you people want to be his pets instead of rational citizens then you also need to come to terms with the reality of the situation and that reality is that there is no chance of winning, so you either wallow in despair or prepare for the future. I find it hilarious and tragic at the same time that being told the truth bothers you so much and you are trying to find enemies everywhere to reason your inability to come to terms with the evident.

[demima]

Lets see, in the days prior to the bye elections, Blair made a speech that directly criticised Corbyn and the Labour Party, Mandleson then in an interview stated 'he is working everyday to bring down Corbyn'. This isnt me trying to find enemies, this is enemies who are proudly proclaiming their position.

You think that Labour lost the marginal seat of Copeland 'coz Corbyn', but refuse to acknowledge that 1) the candidate selected for Copeland was an open Owen Smith/Labour First supporter(i.e. anti-Corbyn),. The candidate that Corbyn wanted was a young energetic local activist who was very popular. But Corbyn got overruled. 2) Jamie Reed, the MP for Copeland stepped down after having only been reelected in 2015 for these reasons. i) boundary changes will have meant he would have lost that seat to the Tories at the next election which is based on demographics and that JR was haemorrhaging votes since 2005, ii) JR was openly criticising his leader since the day Corbyn first got elected. In fact, on the day of his election, JR stated he would never serve in his Cabinet. iii) JR stepped down because it would do a lot of damage knowing Corbyns anti-nuclear stance would be a hard sell to a constituency that relies on the power plant. iiii) the way JR treated his constituents was shit, and this was clear on the doorstep.

By the way, the same can be said of Tristram *unt in Stoke. You think that these are enemies that i'm imagining. It just shows your utter lack of any knowledge or nuance in how the establishment or British politics work. By the way, I knowingly voted for Corbyn the first time and the second, not because I thought he would win a general election, but he would institute change in the party to allow a natural left wing successor. The likelihood of Corbyn winning a general election with the media, current state of parties and the self interest within it are miniscule. Perhaps it is you who was the idealist in your support. You think that the current Blairites attacking Corbyn because they think they can field an alternative which would win a general election? How naive. Its about changing the rules and structure of the Labour Party and challenging the Progress dogma that has plagued the Labour Party for years and years. They know they're losing power, hence why they're throwing their toys out of the pram.

Sorry for any spelling errors, typing on phone

[noemon]

First of all it is quite ridiculous talking about "the media" or things noone cares about out when "the media" are trashing the Tories a lot more than they are trashing Corbyn. May is under the spot from both left and right wing media for Brexit, racism, deportations, benefits and the NHS. Corbyn rarely raises any furore in the media unless he says or does something extremely stupid, like supporting the Tory Brexit bill supposedly with conditions and then doing nothing about those "conditions" either.

Second, what has Corbyn's Labour achieved as opposition? Which bill has he stopped or amended?

When has he ever walked out a one-on-one debate with Theresa May in the House of Commons without being ridiculed?

You have this idealist vision of Corbyn which is akin to fan cheerleading in which all his failures can be attributed to other big bad wolves, Blairites, the establishment, the media or whatever, which even if true [for everyone in politics & life and not just for Corbyn], proper leaders stare down the wolves, otherwise what good are they for?

Blair and the others are trying to save Labour from irrelevancy, they are trying to tell Labour voters, don't worry we are still here to say what needs to be said and this "nightmare" will come to an end sooner or later.

John Major, former Tory PM is accusing Theresa May of lying to the public, other Tory heavyweights are doing the same, why can't Corbyn take advantage of this and increase Labour support but the Tories can? Obviously something else is wrong and not "the Blairites".

[demima]

This argument has become somewhat tiresome as we're clearly not seeing eye to eye. Your hysterics arent exactly conducive to a decent debate either. Your inability to accept facts is not my problem. It aint all about you, mate.

[noemon]

If it is not about me and the rest half of the UK population, then who is it about, demima? Fringe conspiracy theorists who refuse to take responsibility or Tory corporate overlords who want to set up an "enterprise" economy without social services all with your tacit support & blessings?

My "hysterics" is quite funny though. You are going the Trump route, screaming about the media establishment while refusing to come to terms with the fact that the Tories are facing even worse media atmosphere than Corbyn and when confronted with this reality, you double-down much like Trump.

As for Copeland, the numbers are obvious and self-evident

UKIP -9%
Tories +9%
Labour -5%
Lib-Dems +4%

[Heisenberg]

Labour is finished with or without Corbyn as leader. The rise of the SNP in Scotland, and Labour's utter lack of anything meaningful to say about anything at all, have guaranteed that. Labour's problem isn't one that can be fixed by putting some content-free Blairite careerist in charge.

Having said all this, I'm amazed, noemon, that you joined Labour because you thought they'd oppose Brexit in parliament, given that they never said anything of the sort and that Jeremy Corbyn is a documented lifelong opponent of the EU.

[Decky]

Labour is finished with or without Corbyn as leader. The rise of the SNP in Scotland, and Labour's utter lack of anything meaningful to say about anything at all, have guaranteed that. Labour's problem isn't one that can be fixed by putting some content-free Blairite careerist in charge.

Having said all this, I'm amazed, noemon, that you joined Labour because you thought they'd oppose Brexit in parliament, given that they never said anything of the sort and that Jeremy Corbyn is a documented lifelong opponent of the EU.

It's bizarre isn't it? Corbyn has been staunchly against the EU for the entire time the EU has existed and he was against the EEC before that and some bed wetting liberals are acting as if it is some kind of shock he his sticking to a position he has held for decades. They seem to find it shocking that he won't crash labour into the ground by spitting in the face of the working class by siding with the millionaires rather than with the workers on brexit. God knows labour are doing badly enough now but if they stood against brexit it would be a dead party, it would effectively cease to exist and to be frank it would have no right to exist.

"Oh no, I supported a publicly anti EU candidate and he opposed the EU, how could this have happened?"

[Heisenberg]

Not to mention that within hours of the referendum result he said "The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union." If those are the words of a man who wants to block Brexit, I'd be very interested to hear a pro-leave voice.

I also have to take issue with this idea - endlessly peddled by the Guardian and the BBC - that replacing Jeremy Corbyn with Andy Burnham or Chuka Umunna (or that absolute nobody Owen Smith!) would magically make Labour "electable" again. Blairite Labour was rejected in 2010, and again in 2015 (Brown and Miliband's differences with Blair were primarily cosmetic). What makes these people think a huge Blairite win is right around the corner? Do they ever leave the fancier parts of north London?

[demima]

Not to mention that within hours of the referendum result he said "The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union." If those are the words of a man who wants to block Brexit, I'd be very interested to hear a pro-leave voice.

I also have to take issue with this idea - endlessly peddled by the Guardian and the BBC - that replacing Jeremy Corbyn with Andy Burnham or Chuka Umunna (or that absolute nobody Owen Smith!) would magically make Labour "electable" again. Blairite Labour was rejected in 2010, and again in 2015 (Brown and Miliband's differences with Blair were primarily cosmetic). What makes these people think a huge Blairite win is right around the corner? Do they ever leave the fancier parts of north London?

N London is not THAT fancy, only a few pockets :P.

I agree with your post though.

[layman]

@noemon

I told you at the time he was anti Europe.

Not only this but he lied about it and pretended to be pro Europe for the campaign, thus sabotaging it.

I even posted evidence of his office refusing to speak/help st remain events.

So much for his honest integrity.

As Neil kinnock said, leaders can't have personal public views. They need to represent a collective. What is ironic about Jeremy is that this eternal socialist is incapable of representing a collective party of opinions.

His own, unchanging positions are all that matter to him.

@Heisenberg

I told you at the time it wasn't just that I disagree with him. The man is utterly useless.

One of my favourites is when he said he didn't consider himself wealthy. He is delusional and incompetent.

Only happy when talking through a megaphone to adoring supporters. S bit like trump in that way.

[Seeker8]

I think the whole IRA thing hurts Corbyn and McDonnell more than i realised. I noticed a lot of people seem to bring that up when discussing them. Things like this have a big influence on ignorant voters, unfortunately.

[Seeker8]

Also, didn't Corbyn say something like "i'm 60% in favour of the EU". I don't see the point of him saying that if he was totally against the EU as someone here said.

[Rich]

When I openly declared for Corbyn and voted for Corbyn, Corbyn had also openly declared for me and his fight for my rights, now he has decided to throw me under the bus,

Of course semi Nazis like me (although I also consider myself the last true Liberal standing) will support your rights Noemon, but you have got to understand that the left is deeply uncomfortable with EU free movement. They are deeply uncomfortable with seeing so many White people flooding into Britain, taking places that could be filled (from their internationalist perspective) by far more deserving Muslims, West Indians and Sub Saharan Blacks. The EU free movement policy is deeply racist in the way it favours White Infidels. Of course Merkel is trying to correct that by turning Germany into an Islamic State in double quick time, overtaking Belgium and Sweden to get the glory of the first non Ottoman European Muslim majority State. But the Islamo-feminist train may be coming off the rails, hence many of the cultural Marxist rats are jumping the European ship. For cultural Marxists the whole point of Europe was to destroy Europe. As Lenin's goal was to destroy Russia, it was only Stalin's crime (in Lenin's eyes) of great Russian chauvinism that caused Lenin to break with his old protegy.

The Libertarian Brexiters who dominated the movement until a couple of years ago have long peddled leaving the EU as a way to a non racist immigration policy. You have to understand Libertarians love the United States. They have known full well that it is only a such an anti -socialist Libertarian paradise because of the US's substantial Black population. For Libertarians America's Blacks is the gift that never stops giving. Hence Libertarians attempt to replicate since the second world war to re create America's racially / ethnically / culturally, crime ridden, violent society in Europe by flooding Europe with non Europeans.

[demima]

..while refusing to come to terms with the fact that the Tories are facing even worse media atmosphere than Corbyn and when confronted with this reality, you double-down much like Trump.

Wow, clueless.

A quick survey of British papers will show you to be very wrong. Lets see:

The Times (Murdoch) - Pro Tory - anti-Corbyn/Labour
The Sun (Murdoch) - Pro Tory - anti-Corbyn/Labour
Daily Mail (Viscount Rothermere) - Pro Tory - anti-Corbyn/Labour
Daily Express (Richard Desmond) - UKIP/Tory - anti-Corbyn/Labour
Daily Telegraph (Barclay brothers) - Tory - anti-Corbyn/Labour
Evening Standard (Russian oligarch & Viscount Rothermere) - Tory - anti Corbyn/Labour
Daily Star (Richard Desmond) - UKIP/Tory - anti-Corbyn/Labour

Independent (Russian oligarch) - Lib Dems/Centrist (though currently non existant)
Guardian (GMG) - Lib Dems/Centre Right (in my view)

The anti-Corbyn papers in the UK probably compose of around 80-85% of circulation.

The centrists are generally more pro New Labour than actual leftists (my opinion).

The BBC has been found to misrepresent Corbyn. Academics study shows generally an anti-Corbyn bias in all media.

Your next argument might be "bbbbbut it's cos Corbyn is so shit that hes unable to get any support from any papers". You would be wrong because the generally sedate Ed Milliband was also vilified by the same papers, who are Tory and will always be Tory. Only reason the Sun for the short time it supported Blair was because he emulated the Tories.

[noemon]

Wow, clueless.

A quick survey of British papers will show you to be very wrong. Lets see:

You are in utter & total denial and it's pointless. Corbyn does not even make it to the news any more unless he does something exceptionally stupid like swinging from pro-EU to enti-EU, and from anti-nuclear to pro-nuclear, it is only within these topics that he will get any headlines and only because of his messing about. The Tories are constantly bashed on the news and from heavy-weights within their party as well for Brexit, immigration, the NHS, benefits and austerity.

Labour has so many weapons to throw out at them and that makes Corbyn exceptionally incompetent. After John Major, Osborne has now attacked Theresa May as well. The Tories are doing opposition to the Tory government instead of Labour, it has become comical and tragic at the same time.

[Rich]

When 800 thousand Iraqis including half a million children were murdered under American-British led sanctions did British people give a fuck? When 800 thousand Hutus were genocided in Rwanda did British people give a fuck. So if British people are not racists why should they care about Greeks, Romanians or even Poles?

[ingliz]

The Tories are constantly bashed on the news and from heavy-weights within their party as well for Brexit, immigration, the NHS, benefits and austerity.

The Tories are constantly bashed by the media and from the right within their party because Brexit is not Brexity enough, immigrants should be in detention centres awaiting deportation not paying tax that supports public services, the NHS is still the NHS for now, only a quarter of benefit claimants are being sanctioned and austerity is not austere enough to kill all the 'useless eaters'.

[Heisenberg]

I told you at the time it wasn't just that I disagree with him. The man is utterly useless.

I disagree that he's te cause of Labour's problems though. Labour is fundamentally a dead party, whether it's Corbyn in charge or some overrated made-for-TV former solicitor. It just has nothing interesting to say to anyone.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

How I wish Labour was truly finished. However, I have learned over the years that once you declare something dead, it is almost certain to rise from the dead, often much quicker than expected. One can still hope though ...

Labour in NZ are actually in a similar, if not worse, position. John Key was even more successful in "modernising" National than Cameron was with the Tories, meaning the right is drifting left here as well. It's going to be interesting to see if this will eventually cause a kind of push back from the right, similar to Europe and the US.