Ditch 'The Resistance' and DemExit Now - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14780554
So we have this nice deal. Perez heads the party with Ellison appointed deputy. So what is it they actually intend to do? The answer is not much.

The sad truth is there are no effective alternatives left for the Democratic Party in its current incarnation. The Dems are no longer a political party in any meaningful sense. The party exists only to feed its addiction to the smack doled out by its FIRE sector constituency. Anyone or anything that stands between them and their supply will be mercilessly crushed. They have no actual plan for winning elections or helping people. They are content with the status quo - indeed dependent on it.

The organized 'resistance' being engineered by party operatives is smelling more and more like a classic color revolution. There is nothing wrong with organization per se, it is only a question of who is doing the organizing and for whose benefit. In the case of Dem organized 'Resistance' the motive is to co-opt and ground out genuine discontent, so that the current party arrangements are left undisturbed.

DemExit is the only viable remaining alternative for the left. A genuine left populism is not possible within the Dem Party structure. At this juncture, traditional calculations of lesser evil don't make any sense. The lesser evil is no longer capable of winning elections or talking to its constituents - all it can do is drag its feet and cling desperately to its failing worldview.

So ditch The Resistance. Form your own resistance at the local level and organize upwards, outside of Dem Party constraints. Don't go to Republican town hall meetings. The GOP clowns are hopeless - it's a total waste of your time. This technique is based on camera time, not networking. Focusing on the mainstream media is a guaranteed losing strategy.
#14780593
The organized 'resistance' being engineered by party operatives is smelling more and more like a classic color revolution. There is nothing wrong with organization per se, it is only a question of who is doing the organizing and for whose benefit.


Well, we all know who organizes these color revolutions, don't we? :roll: That jew who collaborated with the Nazis against his own people (and called that the "best years of my life," IIRC) comes to mind.
#14780665
quetzalcoatl wrote:DemExit is the only viable remaining alternative for the left. A genuine left populism is not possible within the Dem Party structure. At this juncture, traditional calculations of lesser evil don't make any sense. The lesser evil is no longer capable of winning elections or talking to its constituents - all it can do is drag its feet and cling desperately to its failing worldview.

Please, get out. The seeds of discontent sowed by the Alt Left is what LOST us the election, as they felt perfectly happy colluding with the Trump people in order to discredit the only viable candidate. Bernie was never a Democrat, he only took up the name in order to try his political revolution- which amounted to nothing more than an attempted coup on the Democratic Party leadership. When that failed, he unenthusiastically fell in line while setting it up so that his wing would have the most visible power in the party. He was happy whether the Dems won or lost the presidency because either way it afforded him an immense amount of power. It's very Machiavellian when you think about it.
#14780673
quetzalcoatl wrote:The party exists only to feed its addiction to the smack doled out by its FIRE sector constituency.


Let's be honest: It always has been. Even when Jefferson founded it, it was largely for the ideas of democracy in the form of the French Revolution...So long as slaves could still be involved in the American economic interests.

And that's a less clear line, but it was quickly a money machine—the most infamous point being the influence of Tammany Hall upon it.

Image

FDR took Tammany down while restructuring federal peerage, let's not not pretend that FDR's fight against the KKK-wing of the party was not done with Tammany style money and interests. Nor that the Kennedys, bootleggers made wealthy in the party machine, were wrong for siding with that corruption against the KKK.

But it was always a corrupt capitalist political party. And so were the Republicans, incidentally.

Historically, as a (relatively) recent immigrant family that historically works in government, the graft and corruption of the Democratic Party has generally worked in my people's favour more than the graft and corruption of the Republican Party.

But let's not buy into a narrative where they were ever there to help the little guy. Neither were the GOP.
#14780675
I've been thinking about similar stuff off and on but I haven't had a chance to really congeal it so I'll come back to this thread if I can work it out.

My initial instinct is to disagree. Just for straight structural reasons there really isn't much choice about working within one of the party's. I also don't see why the populist wing can't focus on the local level unless they are out of the party. (Though I may have misunderstood that point.)
#14780676
Why is it Americans use graft to mean corruption? In the UK graft means hard usually physical work. When did they change the definition and why? :?:
#14780677
@quetzalcoatl, it sounds like the same old song. With or without the Democratic Party, the activist left only knows how to terrorize and molest Trump supporters.

My suggestion: stick to theory. If you are unable to organize actual workplaces, then you need to ask yourself what it is you are doing.
#14780678
So ditch The Resistance. Form your own resistance at the local level and organize upwards, outside of Dem Party constraints. Don't go to Republican town hall meetings. The GOP clowns are hopeless - it's a total waste of your time. This technique is based on camera time, not networking. Focusing on the mainstream media is a guaranteed losing strategy


I completely disagree. The only possible outcome of a Bernie like movement outside of the democratic party is utter failure. Life long democrats will not jump ship and the third party movement will be crushed by the divided vote. To even try to run a third party candidate left of the democratic party is folly.

Could Bernie have beaten Trump? I don't think so. He could now but he could not in the last election. The socialist label would have handed the very same states to Trump that he got anyway.

The protestors should absolutely attend Republican Town Halls. I was at one the other day and the republican congresswoman looked like a deer in the headlights. What she saw was the end of her political career staring her in the face. What she took away was that she should not sign a lease in Washington beyond 2018.

It makes absolutely no sense to even consider a presidential candidate at this point. The focus should be on getting democrats elected to state offices and governorships. That way they can stop the gerrymandering nonsense that has put the republicans on top. (It won't work but it is the best shot.)

If those who are upset with Trump want to accomplish anything they need to keep their eyes on the ball. And that is their local congressional and senate race. Oh by the way, the uprising can control who the democratic party candidate will be through the primary process. More Bernie clones in the house and senate would be just fine.

Both parties are corrupt. Always have been. Those are the cards we were dealt.
#14780681
Donald wrote:@quetzalcoatl, it sounds like the same old song. With or without the Democratic Party, the activist left only knows how to terrorize and molest Trump supporters.

My suggestion: stick to theory. If you are unable to organize actual workplaces, then you need to ask yourself what it is you are doing.


FWIW, Trump supporters are not my enemy. Indeed, a point of contention is with those in the Democratic Party who do consider them the enemy. Insofar as Trump supporters may feel molested, they need to grow a pair. Same advice would apply to those disinherited by the Democrats. Trump supporters will be finding out (in a very unambiguous fashion) how real the Trump populism really is. As for actual leftists, my position is that mau-mauing GOP townhalls is stupid. Even worse is punching down (or sideways) at Trump supporters. However misinformed they may or my not be, they are end recipients of all the crap our society has manufactured - not its originators.

As for organizing ourselves, your point is well taken.

Drlee wrote:I completely disagree. The only possible outcome of a Bernie like movement outside of the democratic party is utter failure. Life long democrats will not jump ship and the third party movement will be crushed by the divided vote. To even try to run a third party candidate left of the democratic party is folly.

Could Bernie have beaten Trump? I don't think so. He could now but he could not in the last election. The socialist label would have handed the very same states to Trump that he got anyway.

The protestors should absolutely attend Republican Town Halls. I was at one the other day and the republican congresswoman looked like a deer in the headlights. What she saw was the end of her political career staring her in the face. What she took away was that she should not sign a lease in Washington beyond 2018.

It makes absolutely no sense to even consider a presidential candidate at this point. The focus should be on getting democrats elected to state offices and governorships. That way they can stop the gerrymandering nonsense that has put the republicans on top. (It won't work but it is the best shot.)

If those who are upset with Trump want to accomplish anything they need to keep their eyes on the ball. And that is their local congressional and senate race. Oh by the way, the uprising can control who the democratic party candidate will be through the primary process. More Bernie clones in the house and senate would be just fine.

Both parties are corrupt. Always have been. Those are the cards we were dealt.


The aim should not be to organize a third party, nor to focus on presidential politics. The aim should be to organize at the grass roots, and run left populist candidates. If it can be done with a Democratic Party label of convenience, fine, but expect ferocious pushback from party regulars. Personally, I'm done with neverending grievance of Dems towards their left flank. The point is pursuing an independent movement, and establishing a power base. Power will be the only thing that matters.
Last edited by quetzalcoatl on 28 Feb 2017 03:19, edited 1 time in total.
#14780683
Decky wrote:Why is it Americans use graft to mean corruption? In the UK graft means hard usually physical work. When did they change the definition and why?


It's the same ethnology as the UK. But it became used increasingly like, "Job," as in a con or process criminals would use.

"We just have one last graft and then we can retire..."

OED wrote:Graft: colloq. (orig. U.S.).

The obtaining of profit or advantage by dishonest or shady means; the means by which such gains are made, esp. bribery, blackmail, or the abuse of a position of power or influence; the profits so obtained.

1865 National Police Gaz. (N.Y.) 8 July 1/3 'Twas handy that we were so related, as, when about a ‘graft’, or ‘doing stur’, both sisters could keep each other company.

1886 W. Newton Secrets Tramp Life Revealed 14 This ‘Guide’ cannot work this ‘graft’ alone, for he has to have a good supply for stock, a bag of ‘snide’ or base coins.

1889 in J. B. Thoburn Hist. Oklahoma (1916) I. xxix. 407 The enterprising individual sold water at so much a drink until he was ousted from his profitable graft.

1896 G. Ade Artie i. 3 To the church show—the charity graft.

1901 ‘J. Flynt’ World of Graft ii. 12 Chi ain't no free soup kitchen. The City Hall people want their graft just as much as I [sc. a criminal] do.

1903 H. Hapgood Autobiogr. Thief (1904) ii. 34 In those days..Moll-buzzing, as well as picking pockets in general, was an easy and lucrative graft.

1903 H. Hapgood Autobiogr. Thief (1904) x. 205 The boy had a much better chance to learn the graft than I had when a kid, for my father was an honest man.

1903 H. Hapgood Autobiogr. Thief (1904) x. 222, I was too sleepy those days to go out of town much on the graft.

1903 Daily Chron. 21 Oct. A Chicago paper has the headline, ‘Labour revolts at paying graft’.

1903 Daily Chron. 3 Nov. 5/3 Are you ready to support a government of law against a government of ‘graft’, an administration of the city's resources in the interest of the public and of the public treasury, against their dissipation for the benefit of a favoured few?
#14780697
There's no Hillary 2020 and there's no Bernie 2020. The Berniecrats need to leave the party and stop trying to influence it. They don't respect respectable politicians and they slander anyone who doesn't kowtow to their insane standards of progressivism. They're not even Democrats! They hate Democrats. They hate Obama. They hate Joe Biden. Etc. OP will even say it himself. "We hate the establishment" means they hate the mostly good people that run the Democratic Party. Yeah, they have made compromises, but that's what you do in politics. We had a good thing going and they blew it all up because Hillary wasn't good enough for their standards.
#14780703
LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX wrote:There's no Hillary 2020 and there's no Bernie 2020. The Berniecrats need to leave the party and stop trying to influence it. They don't respect respectable politicians and they slander anyone who doesn't kowtow to their insane standards of progressivism. They're not even Democrats! They hate Democrats. They hate Obama. They hate Joe Biden. Etc. OP will even say it himself. "We hate the establishment" means they hate the mostly good people that run the Democratic Party. Yeah, they have made compromises, but that's what you do in politics. We had a good thing going and they blew it all up because Hillary wasn't good enough for their standards.


That's mostly BS, of course. Democrats blew themselves up, and their party will reap what it has sown. But you do have a point. Bernie was never really a Democrat, and neither was I. And that's the way it should be. I used the Democratic party as a vehicle for advancing the interests of the working class. I have zero interest in the fortunes of the Democratic Party, beyond its utility for that purpose. I have zero respect for Perez, Biden, and Obama. The 'mostly good people' who run the Democratic Party have a demonstrated antagonism to the interests of the working class that goes way beyond making compromises.

The only good outcomes are either the death of the Democratic Party or a coup d'etat that purges these mostly good people from positions of influence. For now left populist/progressives must work to build an alternative power base from which to accomplish one of these two goals.

You are correct that we shouldn't try to "influence" these people. They have made clear who they are loyal to, and we won't be able to outbid their constituents.

One final note. If you truly believe that Berniecrats are responsible for Democrats losing the rust belt swing voters, you live in a fantasy world that rivals Trump's
#14780765
@Drlee has it right. The Democrats set themselves up as adversaries to local and state government. They took pride in confronting them. This was a mistake. They need to work within local government, not against it.
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